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Jeff_Ray...
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Alright, I'm working on fixing these problems. The new version will have them fixed, along with Level 8.

In the meantime, don't be shy, people! Post your thoughts and suggestions here! :)

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09-04-2010 at 06:00 PM
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Shendy
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icon Re: Riddles Within The Below (0)  
I have some questions
What is the use of Subconscious Plane?
And is it intended to be accessible?
09-07-2010 at 06:26 AM
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Zorglub
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Lvl6 2N1E is possible.
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09-07-2010 at 07:41 AM
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Shendy
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I think that Level 6 1E has an unintended solution. If you wake the evil eyes up, the door to the stairs will close.
However, you can still exit after conquering the room from the northern exit.

I think Level 6 1W also has an unintended solution (maybe? This could be the intended one) which is
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[Last edited by Shendy at 09-07-2010 02:50 PM : Some more info]
09-07-2010 at 02:29 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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Subconscious Plane is going to be a 'post mastery area. For now, it stores rooms I don't want to use at the moment or harder/easier versions of them.

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09-07-2010 at 09:15 PM
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Shendy
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Also, level 6 1E (Looking from the editor), has the script triggering the orb every time an evil eye wake up and the orb is toggle instead of close and therefore,
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09-10-2010 at 08:21 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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Thanks for your input everyone! I fixed the bugs that were mentionned (might've missed a few, tell me if I did). With these fixes comes the addition of Levels 8 and 9.

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09-10-2010 at 09:45 PM
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RayneStormRN
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I'm up to level five, and so far enjoying it. puzzles that take a few tries before the "ah ha" moment. The only thing i don't like is how the pop up words the delver says, are identical to what's on the scrolls. seems a little repetative. the scrolls are nice, cause if you are relatively new you can read them if you want, and don't have the pop ups blocking your view of the level.
09-11-2010 at 01:26 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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By the words the delver say, do you mean the words that pop up in the top left corner of the room? If so, then the scrolls are there because I was told the blurbs could be skipped accidentally.

However, I don't quite want to remove the blurbs, because I'm not a fan of having to use scrolls as a means of information. They're only there for those who need to re-read the information again.

If, on the other hand, you mean what Tathruld directly says, then I guess I could make his dialogue less repetitive. I've actually been doing that for the levels I'm currently making, and I might even go over the older ones to remove the redundancy.

Thanks for your input! :)

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09-12-2010 at 03:59 AM
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Shendy
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What is the use of the joke level named nith levl?
And is it intended to be accessed?


09-12-2010 at 05:44 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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nith levl is actually a small parody on those beginner holds, in which Tathruld comments the awful grammar of the scrolls. Not sure if it'll make it into the final product, but it's there for laughs.

If you can get to it however, then that is a problem.

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09-12-2010 at 03:28 PM
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Penwielder
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A few random comments that crossed my mind as I played along (secreted for space):

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I'll continue later, going east of 3S2W. Until then, as Chaco said, "Be assured that although I often focus on the problems in your holds, I think this is a good piece of design work".

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09-12-2010 at 11:11 PM
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Zorglub
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Well obviously penwielder said most of it.
Here are my few other comments.

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09-13-2010 at 01:31 PM
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Shendy
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quote:
noma wrote:
Quick note: stairs at Level 6 entrance exit the hold. Should they be going back to 5?


And now also the one in level 8.
09-13-2010 at 04:08 PM
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Chaco
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File: riddles_notes_chaco.txt (33.1 KB)
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icon Re: Riddles Within The Below (+1)  
Here's my comments for the entire hold as it stands now. Given how long it took me to play through and take thorough notes, some of these points might be redundant, but hopefully they'll be useful.

My main comments for now:

Once you're done building, check the difficulty curve of your rooms and move some of them around.

Get someone to proofread this hold's text.

You're doing fine and I'm interested in seeing what future versions of this hold do.

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09-18-2010 at 05:38 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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BRAIIIIIIIIINS!!

...are one of the elements introduced in this new demo! Here's a quick summary of what's new:

! Level 1 to 3 has been merged into a single entity.
+ Levels 8 to 15 are completed and ready for your testing!
* Many bug fixes and room changes that I don't exactly remember

***Note: The story and speech in this version aren't finalized. They will be reworked in the future. In the meantime, focus your testing on the levels themselves. :)

Enjoy!
-Jeff_Ray ===

EDIT: I uploaded a small Warpzone fix. Level 12 is now possible to reach in-game, but not Level 16.

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 02-19-2013 10:37 PM]
02-19-2013 at 10:20 PM
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Neather man
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I looked at this in the level editor and found "nth level" hilarious! I busted a gut reading it all aloud. I'm going to bet my money it was supposed to be a joke based off of "the boss lair" though.
02-24-2013 at 12:01 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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nth level is mostly a parody of "first holds" which usually have these kind of mistakes, not on one specific hold. It probably won't make it into the final version, as it might be considered a bit mean-spirited by some.

I'm glad you liked it though. :)

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02-24-2013 at 01:46 AM
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Shendy
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I know that Level 20 is not finished yet, but when you cross the blue door, a slayer appears so I think it is intended that you can't go through the north exit and are forced to go through the west exit. However, there is a way to get around the slayer and exit through the northern exit.
03-19-2013 at 07:35 AM
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Jacob
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Excellent hold. Really enjoying it.
Main criticism - the hold makes pretenses towards being a beginners' tutorial type hold. But the difficulty level and required knowledge of a lot of the rooms make this unreasonable.
Will try to write some detailed comments at some point.

For now, some more critical issues:

Level 9 - 1N Bombs used here before being explained/introduced.

Level 12 - 4S1W I'm pretty sure you proceed if you complete the room then exit west. [edit: no idea what I was saying here. I meant that you're stuck if you complete the room and exit west] Easily sorted with some arrangement of green doors/tunnels.

Level 13 - 1S4E There's no need to disarm since you can exit to the east, so dropping the trapdoor's no problem. May be resolved with a sister red door, among other possibilities.

Level 13 - 3S1E Is it intentional that Beethro kills the queen shortly after releasing it and Halph presses the last plate? The room layout seems to suggest that you need to get the queen to the plate - or is that a red herring?



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[Last edited by Jacob at 03-24-2013 05:24 PM]
03-24-2013 at 12:41 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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Thanks for your input, Jacob. I'm looking forward to the more complete analysis. :)

As for the problems you have pointed out, I've dealt with them, save for the last one. That last part of L13 3S1E will probably need to be remade so it isn't as confusing and cluttered as it currently is.

As for Level 20, I've tested, and the slayer can indeed be bypassed. I will deal with that in due time.

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03-24-2013 at 11:44 PM
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Jacob
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Level 14: 3N3E. Is this possible?
I can see that I need to use the platform to kill multiple roaches at once, but the best I can do is still over 30 moves off.
Which side is it first? Any other hints? Demo?

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03-25-2013 at 02:26 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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That room is mostly about efficiency. In my demo, I managed to finish it with only a few turns to spare.
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If you need a demo, tell me and I shall provide.


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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 03-25-2013 10:55 PM]
03-25-2013 at 10:53 PM
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Jacob
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Still needing some help.
Demo please?

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03-26-2013 at 11:44 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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icon Re: Riddles Within The Below (0)  
Very well. Help has been sent your way and should arrive right now.

Anyway, I suppose an idea would be to make the timer a slight bit more lenient... yeah, that sounds about right.

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03-27-2013 at 09:11 PM
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Shendy
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05-23-2013 at 10:12 AM
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Nuntar
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I'm not sure what the etiquette is regarding bumping Architecture threads to say "hey, you got a new player"... but since Jeff is still around, I thought he might appreciate some more feedback if he comes back to this hold (as he should; there's a lot of quality work here that shouldn't be wasted).

Levels 1-4
These levels seem to have a very nice difficulty and knowledge progression -- of course it's hard to judge as I'm not a beginner, but I didn't notice any major problems. There are also some excellent slightly harder puzzles in secret rooms.

My only complaint -- and it's something of a personal preference -- is that I find large golem hordes tedious, and I think rooms like 4:2N1W and 5:1E would be more enjoyable with reduced numbers. 4:1N is strange, because the first (southern) half is tricky and the second half is almost trivial. Reducing the numbers in the first half would balance this better.

I don't like the exposition in triplicate. Jeff, you mentioned that you put the scrolls there because you were worried about the player accidentally skipping the dialogue, but (1) you can review dialogue by double-clicking the player avatar in the top-left of the screen, and (2) you could script exposition dialogue so it repeats on re-entry unless the room is clear.

I am puzzled by Chaco's comment on (what is now) 3:1S, as I didn't find any use for the south-pointing force arrow.

Level 5
Agreed with Chaco that most of the roach queen rooms are easier than the previous two levels. I don't think it's a problem -- these rooms are fun and relaxing.

2N is much too tricky for a room teaching the concept of blocking queens with spawn, but it's a nice puzzle. I would replace this with an easier room, and keep the original as a secret room.

The invisibility rooms, after the first few, are where this really stops being a beginners' hold. Nice puzzles, but they require a good bit of thought. I don't think that matters hugely -- absolute beginners will always be recommended to start with the official holds, but holds like this and Dan's Dungeon (and my own work-in-progress Bubble Wrap) that give additional practice focused on each element in turn will always be welcome.

2W: The invisibility potion makes me suspect I was meant to clear the room on my second visit (and I see that Chaco's notes agree), but it's possible on the first. If you continue the hold in the 5.0 engine, you could make that a scripted challenge.

Level 6
Some easy rooms to introduce wraithwings, then some much more difficult horde rooms. Again, this makes me unsure as to what level of player you're aiming at. I wish you introduced red doors with an easy trapdoor puzzle, rather than a large trapdoor rectangle, which is just tedious.

Move the checkpoint in 1S5W a square down, so if the player gets the timing of releasing the queen wrong, they don't have to do the bridge section again.

2S1W is horrible. After releasing the first queen, the arena fills up with roaches, and you have to continually guess how many turns it will take the roaches to move past the queen (which depends on move order, and there are too many roaches to work it out, so it's trial and error) so she can start moving on turn 29. And then if you get it wrong, there's a lot of smiting to do before you can have another try. I didn't find a good method on 2S either, I just kept trying until I got lucky.

I didn't drop any trapdoors in 3S1E. Were they a red herring?

3S2W: Move the checkpoint, so the player can try again with a different sword orientation.

4W: Nice easy room to finish with. My solution was different from Chaco's. I just ignored the WWs and went into the central room as fast as possible.

Level 7
Nice level, I find serpents a bit easier to handle than wraithwings :) Didn't notice any problems.

Level 8
Another fun level, generally not too tough. Excellent linchpins in 4N and 4N2E. If you want to aim this at beginners, I'd suggest making 4N2E a secret room, and loosening the timer on 5N1E a little.

6N3E has no checkpoint.

I'd like 5N2E to have a green-door passage for easier travel through the completed room, particularly as cutting tar in a cleared room switches to Puzzle music.


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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-17-2014 06:26 PM]
05-16-2014 at 04:36 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Riddles Within The Below (+3)  
Level 9
Another good level, with some tricky puzzles, particularly 1N2E.

1E has a trivial solution: put the mimic on the plate at (35,14) and everything opens up. I'm unsure about whether my solution to 2N2E was intended, so I've attached a demo.

2N1E can be done with only three decoys (another possibility for a challenge).

Level 10
This is a large step up in difficulty (after the usual series of easy introductory rooms). 3S1E is a very nice tilt maze with a well-hidden solution, but getting all three eyes to the plate is exhausting.

2S2E has no checkpoint.

2E is an annoying wubba horde room, which again might be more fun with reduced numbers. And the way the secret room is hidden is just cruel (excellent room, though).

In general, I prefer checkpoints to be just before fuse ends (pressure plates, trapdoors etc.) rather than on them, so that if you go wrong, you can restore and still try stepping on the fuse at a different time or with a different sword orientation. I felt this particularly in 2S1E because my solution involved a lot of preparation before crossing the fuse, but that may not be what you intended.

Level 11
Almost entirely a breather level -- which, after Level 10, I felt I'd earned! 3S1W is drastically harder than the rest of the level as it requires finding a precise and well-hidden sequence of moves at the start to avoid getting stuck later. If you do decide to make earlier levels easier, this could be a secret room, though as it stands, anyone who can get through the levels up to here should be able to cope with it.

Level 12
A seriously tough level -- reminds me a lot of JtRH 20 and 24.

2S2W explains and illustrates that tar grows before mud, but you don't need to think about this to solve the puzzle, or any other puzzle in the level. It would be good to use this as a linchpin at least once. In the same room, the scroll explains tar and mud mothers, which the player already knows about.

3S needs a checkpoint before the first one you reach, and 5S3W needs a checkpoint above the NE stretch of obstacle wall. 5S3W is extremely long and intimidating (it probably can be done more efficiently, but I finished with 969 moves and 588 kills) and you might consider making it a secret room. (However, I have a challenge for the room: don't let the enclosed tarstuff blob grow beyond 2x3.)

A couple of rooms have vision tokens when nothing is hidden under the tar :?

4S1W still has the backtracking problem Jacob mentioned: if you exit the cleared room west without solving 5S1W, you cannot get back through the room. As I don't feel like solving the rooms on this level a second time, this is as far as I'm going.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-18-2014 08:04 PM]
05-17-2014 at 10:18 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Riddles Within The Below (+1)  
...

I really shouldn't.

...

And yet..

...

Jeff can't fix the bugs with this hold, he's too busy making new levels.
05-28-2014 at 09:18 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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I can't even claim to that. xD I can't even get myself to finish one of the two levels in the next demo...

Past Jeff would be so disappointed.

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05-29-2014 at 03:39 PM
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