Jatopian
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Ah. Still doesn't address my other point, which is that youtubers (youpotatoes?) are morons.

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Syntax
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That's quite a general comment. As far as DROD is concerned, I think any exposure is good exposure. As far as youtube goes, I frequently watch music videos on there but wouldn't call myself a moron.

Jacob
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I'll agree with that point, and certainly that is an issue that we'll never be able to resolve.

But at if we go with the idea of a video showcasing DROD's gameplay as a means of promoting the game, youtube is pretty much the most logical and accessible site to upload it to, and one which will probably allow us to reach the widest audience.

Edit: Haha, post collision, essentially saying the same thing too.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
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[Last edited by Jacob at 06-19-2010 06:37 PM]

12th Archivist
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I like the idea of using YouTube as a method of DROD exposure. If the OK is given to Caravel forum members by Mike, a few plans should be made. Perhaps a video about the TCB demo, explaining the puzzles and elements, why they work, all while showing how they can be solved.

If all goes well, the video should showcase the best of DROD and hopefully bring in a lot more players. If that happens... Caravel can start building the franchise outward, instead of upward. That should bring in even more players. A cycle of good, no?

The only thing needed to start this cycle is a good video. Not too hard, is it? Or am I being too optimistic again?

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 06-19-2010 07:12 PM]

Superslash2
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I haven't done a Let's Play. But there have been very very many of them and I think they do what was said before, record footage and use a mic to either record simultaneously OR after the recording is done; both are viable.

The idea behind it being a different hold and not the demo is that for one thing, if I remember right, the demo doesn't really show off that much of what DROD is about or some of the elements. That's why I mentioned a hold specifically for the exhibition, so you could tailor it solely for showing off some of the basic ideas alongside some of the trickier puzzles. Also, it wouldn't spoil any of the holds people like playing since it's made under the assumption that it's going to be spoilt. Personally, I was thinking of something like Level 7 in JtRH. That level isn't hard but has some parts which need you to stop and think. Doesn't have snakes or anything though so literally like it isn't that great a thing.

It doesn't NEED to be YouTube, it's just that that's a good place to start. It could be dailymotion or blip or something. Not everyone on YouTube is a moron - I was on YouTube. I'd like to think I'm more rational. But it could be any video site.

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Abbyzzmal
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The graphics in themselves don't seem as big an issue as the immediate shock of staring at them on a 38x32 grid. When you show a game to a person who doesn't typically enjoy games, it usually seems like they're not even looking at the screen. They expect to be bored, and unless they can form some understanding of the mental processes that go into interacting with the media, they will be.

Once a person arrives in that place of immersion where games make internal sense, games become familiar and second nature, and with DROD especially, you're suddenly able to compartmentalize the wealth of information into easily processed algorithms. I am not sure what causes this transition, some initial patience hormone perhaps, but before the details are comprehensible, more of them will be overwhelming.

Banjooie
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If you want to make an LP of DROD worth watching, do it with two people, crack jokes the entire time, have fun. People will associate 'this game is fun' with 'this commentary is fun', I assure you.

Snacko
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A problem with the LP is simply that so much of DROD's appeal is its community features which are so tightly wound that hunting for high scores, making holds and discussing them seems more a contribution to the community than the arbitrary submissions into a void that other games provide.

LP commentary can cover this, of course, and having two people can really help with that spirit. Just a suggestion.

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Spanky_ham
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First, let me preface my opinion with a brief intro (as I have yet to post).

I first played DROD as a demo on a CD of 100 Great Games for Win95. My parents kept me locked in the basement (a metaphor ) and didn't buy me any games, so it was years before I stumbled upon the free downloadable version. I finished KDD twice, got stuck in a tar room on JtRH, and am currently working on TCB as of a couple days ago.


I see the game as designed specifically for those people who like to challenge conventional ideas and paradigms. The story definitely appeals to that, and it takes a great deal of creative problem-solving to do the puzzles. (A skill which is apparently being taught less and less frequently in schools...BOO!)

Most in our society, however, have indeed embraced the mothingness, scurrying about their colorless lives, doing things because they think they're supposed to. For one who already realizes this truth from an early age, yes; this game has a high appeal.

But sadly, most don't.

This game, therefore, is tailored to a selective and elite audience; one that is willing to invest considerable mental discipline in their spare time.

vittro
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I want to give my personal experience:

I have a friend who plays Quake 3 with me, and we often see each other. I always bring my notebook and we play togheter via LAN. When we get bored we watch videos or play other stuff.

I've tried 2-3 times to show him DROD playing the JTRH/TCB holds but he never liked it and said it was pretty stupid.

I once loaded up "Candy for Gramps", the room with the trapped aumtlich, and started trying to solve it. He said something how about the room is impossible because you can't even reach the aumtlich with your sword. And I started explaining that the game is not about killing stuff with your sword, but solving puzzles. So we solved the puzzle togheter.

I don't know, maybe he's that kind of guy that prefers lynchpin puzzles to "kill everything". Maybe the original holds have too many "kill everything" rooms? I'm not saying they're bad rooms, but sometimes the lynchpin is very obvious (for example TCB:Holding Vats:2S1W) and the point of the room is dealing with a certain element.

I suggest Caravel should also choose certain pure lynchpin holds and release them with the game.

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Jacob
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I think that's definitely a good point.

I really enjoyed the official holds, but whenever I've replayed them have noticed the same thing - that there aren't that many actual puzzles.

KDD probably only has a couple of proper lynchpin type rooms. The rest is mainly working out how to kill things.

So I agree with the suggestion that we need to better frontload the puzzle aspects of drod.

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mrimer
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As I recall, a lot of the original game (i.e. KDD) puzzles were about killing everything simply because the tactics required by the game mechanics were quite original. That is, when playing DROD for the first time, just figuring out how to kill everything that's swarming around you without dying in itself was quite a puzzle for me. Merely surviving a room was an intrinsic victory. (Recalling that DROD was inspired by Daleks affirms my impression.)

Now that many on the Forum are hardened smitemasters, the surviving part has become natural. (Hey, we're all professionals, right?) Once you can survive, what we call "puzzles" takes on a new meaning.

____________________________
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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
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And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 10-20-2010 03:55 PM]

Syntax
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Heartily agreed! Getting my head round the backswipe took a while

12th Archivist
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mrimer wrote:
As I recall, a lot of the original game (i.e. KDD) puzzles were about killing everything simply because the tactics required by the game mechanics were quite original. That is, when playing DROD for the first time, just figuring out how to kill everything that's swarming around you without dying in itself was quite a puzzle for me. Merely surviving a room was an intrinsic victory. (Recalling that DROD was inspired by Daleks affirms my impression.)

Now that many on the Forum are hardened smitemasters, the surviving part has become natural. (Hey, we're all professionals, right?) Once you can survive, what we call "puzzles" takes on a new meaning.

Very true indeed! However, when it comes to Caravel's decision between keeping the hard puzzles to keep us professionals interested and making the puzzles easier (in the next official release), I would support the latter option. It attracts more business, and plus, the larger the player pool, the larger the variety of puzzles. Should us professionals think that the new puzzles are *too* easy and not fun to play, perhaps a "Master Quest"-style/version of a new official hold could be released complete with the hard puzzles we all know and love appreciate.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

mrimer
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The next game is planned to be a prequel and should have a smoother difficulty curve and some mastery rooms, which should make the difficulty a bit closer to more mainstream games. Rather than hard and really, really hard.

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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

disoriented
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mrimer wrote:
The next game is planned to be a prequel and should have a smoother difficulty curve and some mastery rooms, which should make the difficulty a bit closer to more mainstream games. Rather than hard and really, really hard.

Ooh, looking forward to the iPad version!

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NiroZ
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It's not a mainstream game until it has frivolous achievements, cheats, and erupts into a series of colourful fireworks every time you hit a button.

enzi666
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I think it's just way too hard for the average gamer. You can spend an endless amount of hours to figure out all the rooms. Many rooms I played for days until I got the solution. Personally I think that's a great thing as I never played a game with such a depth.

Drod is the perfect example what you can really do with simple gameplay and creative level design. Many are missing this and don't get to the point where they see what Drod truly is. I recommended Drod to nearly every friend I know since I started playing it and not even one played it further than KDD level 4. It always makes me sad when I think about it.

Usually I'm quite good at bringing my friends to new games but with Drod I really don't know how I can make the game attractive to them. I guess, hardcore puzzle games are really a complicated niche. All these casual puzzlers are selling pretty good but how many really difficult puzzle games do you know that are popular? I know of Braid and Winterbottom even though they are really short games compared to Drod and not even remotely on par in terms of difficulty.

As I said in another thread I made, bringing it to Steam would be a huge step for Drod. iPad? Not so much. (imo!)

Oh, and can anyone give us some infos about the new Drod? The bar is at 66% for ages!

____________________________
58th Skywatcher

DROD AE: Finished - KDD2: Mastered
JTRH: Mastered
TCB: Mastered - RPG: Finished
GatEB: Mastered - TSS: Mastered

martz
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enzi666 wrote:
Oh, and can anyone give us some infos about the new Drod? The bar is at 66% for ages!

I can exclusively reveal that the new game is 2/3 completed

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Chaco
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martz wrote:
I can exclusively reveal that the new game is 2/3 completed

Wow, you mean there's a whole 2/3 of a percent of progress Caravel's made on the new game that the bar isn't showing yet?

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12th Archivist
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martz wrote:
I can exclusively reveal that the new game is 2/3 completed

+1 funny.

(OK, OK, I was not the one who modded you up. But still, I did chuckle.)

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 12-16-2010 11:01 PM]

Syntax
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enzi666 wrote:
Oh, and can anyone give us some infos about the new Drod? The bar is at 66% for ages!

I'd said April 1st 2011 or 2012

disoriented
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Syntax wrote:
I'd said April 1st 2011 or 2012

I'm worried that the graphics will look dated by then.

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Best to PM me, since I might miss your message on CaravelNet chat.

Banjooie
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....

oh u trol me

DairmossX
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Like someone else (cant remember who now...5am, im a litle slow) mentioned, i first played drod as a demo off of a win95 compilation disk. and i couldnt help but laugh like crazy every time i heard beethro scream. (i was little!) and after that point, i played through the demo quite a few times. came across the demo for JTRH a number of years later, then of course, TCB, both demos (i've been too poor, or concentrated on other games to keep me going)

since then, i've mastered AE....but of course, lack of money at this point has limited me on the ability to get JTRH and TCB, but downloading user made levels or attempting to make my own, whenever im not playing something like STALKER or Vindictus has kept me going thus far. I do hate that i cant afford any of the DROD games. But even after all these years, i still know i can look to DROD for that classic feel puzzle game that still is unmatched by pretty much anything else i've ever played. sure, i love the typical action/shooter/RPG, but im still gonna keep coming back to DROD even probably years from now.

At this point, i dont think it really matters too much if it "appeals to the masses". Recently i was part of a discussion on the games forum of vampirefreaks, and the point was made that true masterpieces of games dont always appeal to the masses. Shooters are notorious for that. You get the big name popular games that have a few features that give just enough to give the generic gamer a basic game experience without a whole lot of difficulty. Then you have the games that come out that give you something you dont see in any other game. Like im Metro 2033, i your outside for more than a certain period of time, you have to change your air filter or risk suffocation. Or in STALKER, if you collect too much radiation, your health deteriorates, and you either have to take anti-rad or drink vodka (which has the added lulz of making it IMPOSSIBLE to walk).

DROD is a masterpiece of a game series. it doesnt give you the generic feel that your basic puzzle/adventure game gives you, and i feel as though it makes it one of the greatest games anyone can come across, even if they dont like it.

Syntax
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Well said! Glad to see you're enjoying it so much. I took 9 months off work just to play it. May seem extreme but hey... there were 2 of us competing and it was a great fun.

If you want TCB and/or JtRH just let me know (I recommend TCB with in-game JtRH). Otherwise, I'm sure I can transfer some Smitemaster Selection credits over to you.

PM if interested

(Offer limited to DairmossX :p)

DROD is a masterpiece indeed and I agree that the masses are quite welcome to play something else

Banjooie
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Well said! Glad to see you're enjoying it so much. I took 9 months off work just to play it.

Ahahahahaha
haahhahaaha

what

Syntax
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Banjooie wrote:

Well said! Glad to see you're enjoying it so much. I took 9 months off work just to play it.

Ahahahahaha
haahhahaaha

what

Let's say me and VaC decided to escape the rat race for a while... and DROD is a good place to escape to

Jeff_Ray...
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Syntax wrote:
Let's say me and VaC decided to escape the rat race for a while...

Oh, so your job is being a test subject for experiments?

I've tried getting friends into the game. Out of 2, one of them seemed to be somewhat interested, but he only played easier levels. The other... simply prefers RPGs. (Nope, not the DROD RPG kind)

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DairmossX
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I've gotten a couple friends interested, at least in AE...neither one got NEARLY as far as i did though lol. I think the one never made it past level 8? Conveniently, my favorite level of AE