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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Pole Vaulting (Not another olympic sport in DROD...)
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12th Archivist
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icon Pole Vaulting (+2)  
I had an idea for a type of arrow called a Vault Arrow. Much like a force arrow, it definitely faces a direction.

When you step on the arrow, you will skip ahead the tile in front of where the vault arrow is facing. It doesn't matter what kind of object is in front of where the vault arrow is facing, since you jump right over it. You can even jump right over an ordinary tile. With vault arrows, you can even "vault" over orthotile forces, allowing you to move diagonally.

Vault Arrows can be rotated by the Arrow Rotater Token. This means that after the arrow is turned, you will be vaulted in that direction rather than in the old direction. Vault Arrows can be place facing any direction and they can face any direction.

A player can vault only so long as they can travel through a tunnel. That means for most player roles, you must step on a power token before you can vault.

If you vault into a tile that you cannot move onto, the vault arrow tile with fade somewhat. You can still move onto that tile, although you will not be vaulted. Let's say you are a slayer, since you have the capability of killing things with your body, you can vault onto most monsters - rock golems, rock giants, wubbas and tarstuff can't be stepped on by body-killing player roles so they cannot vault onto those creatures. Example: If you are in player role roach and you vault into an enemy roach, you successfully vault and kill the roach as soon as you move onto the vault arrow tile. But, if you are a roach and you try to vault onto a rock giant, you will move onto the vault arrow tile but will not vault.

One more thing. As soon as you step on the vault arrow tile, you will be vaulted onto the target tile. This behavior is unlike tunnels that you are required to move in the direction to face after stepping on their tile first to transport.

That is my idea for a feature request. You are now allowed to throw tomatoes at me. :tomato

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04-06-2009 at 01:27 AM
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zex20913
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icon Re: Pole Vaulting (0)  
Neat! I withhold my tomatoes.

Couple of questions--

1. Would sword position change? (I think it unlikely, but can see reasons for having either oremite-off sword movement, or anti-oremite-off sword movement. That is, the sword would end up facing the vault arrow, for a neat kill-effect.)

2. As with all multi-move requests, would Beethro be able to kill two monsters in one (normal speed) turn?

3. Would vaulting onto a vault arrow cause another vault? Combine this with #2's affirmative, and many monsters could be killed in one move...

4. Does orthotile forces include orthotiles on the vault arrow? Is that even possible with the current layering?

5. Are monsters able to move onto it, even though they can't use it?

This idea definitely passes the "plays well with others" test, to me. Well thought-out, and lots of interactive potential. I'd like to see more flesh on this skeleton.

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04-06-2009 at 04:03 AM
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zex20913 wrote:
Neat! I withhold my tomatoes. Thanks.

Couple of questions--

1. Would sword position change? (I think it unlikely, but can see reasons for having either oremite-off sword movement, or anti-oremite-off sword movement. That is, the sword would end up facing the vault arrow, for a neat kill-effect.) No, since pole vaulting just makes you move. Vaulting onto an oremite tile will relinquish your sword, but much like stepping on oremites normally, you will not face another direction after vaulting.

2. As with all multi-move requests, would Beethro be able to kill two monsters in one (normal speed) turn? Beethro cannot kill things with his body, even though he may be facing the right direction to kill another monster when he vaults. However, a slayer can kill two enemies in one turn with this.

3. Would vaulting onto a vault arrow cause another vault? Combine this with #2's affirmative, and many monsters could be killed in one move... I never thought of this! Yes, vaulting onto another vault arrow will cause you to vault again. Since you actively appear in that tile for less than a turn to vault again, any enemies that can be touched by your sword will be killed when you vault. Actually, I just got an idea...

4. Does orthotile forces include orthotiles on the vault arrow? Is that even possible with the current layering? I believe it would. Since you vault right over the tile altogether, you can vault over orthotiles right on the vault arrow. I don't know if this would be allowed though. Try again later.

5. Are monsters able to move onto it, even though they can't use it? They most certainly are. Whether it can be activated or not does not matter since monsters can step on it anyway.

This idea definitely passes the "plays well with others" test, to me. Well thought-out, and lots of interactive potential. I'd like to see more flesh on this skeleton.

I've given my answers in red. Why is there a shiny yellow arrow next to my topic? Is that cause I need to look to the right of my monitor or what?

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04-06-2009 at 04:16 AM
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Kwakstur
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Wow, looks like we have a successful Feature Request!....


...for now. MOO HOO HAA HAA HAA

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04-06-2009 at 05:07 AM
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icon Re: Pole Vaulting (0)  
By the way, I'm wondering about some aspects of these myself.

Can you vault diagonally onto an orthosquare?
Can you vault onto an opposing arrow?
Can you vault through a wall?
Can you vault through an obstacle?

Personally, I think these should be, in order, No No No Yes. My logic is that that would be the most Flawlessly Consistent way it can work while providing both ways to make a passage exclusive to vault arrow crossing and ways to prevent vault arrow misuse in rotator-token-filled areas.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-06-2009 05:22 AM]
04-06-2009 at 05:20 AM
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I like this idea, butI don't think that you should be able to vault multiple times in one turn, and this has nothing to do with the number of monsters killed. Take this for example:

^>v< = vault spaces

>.v
...
^.<


This would cause the room to stop working. I think that instead if you wait on a space that you vaulted on to you would be vaulted off. I can see the argument about architects just having to be careful, but I still don't think that it's a good idea. Additional thoughts:
Stuff you can't vault over:
Wall (or possibly just hard wall, to give it an actual use)
Tarstuff on raised objects (wall, closed doors)

And obviously, if you landed in pit or water you would die.

Would monsters be able to use them? I would assume only intelligent monsters (mimics, guards, slayers, and I'm specifically not including stalwarts) should, but with some restrictions. If vaulting would get the guard closer to Beethro, then do it, otherwise avoid the square. If slayers are allowed to use them, they would have to be added to the pathfinding routine along with the simple orb solving stuff.
04-06-2009 at 07:35 AM
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slimm tom
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Someone Else wrote:
Wall (or possibly just hard wall, to give it an actual use)
Itīs hard to tell the difference between them for the player, so I would vote for not vaulting over any walls.

[Last edited by slimm tom at 04-06-2009 09:07 AM]
04-06-2009 at 09:06 AM
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Samuel
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This sounds like a great idea.
Would there be sounds for polevaulting. Such as flying or landing?

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04-06-2009 at 09:49 AM
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The Architest
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icon Re: Pole Vaulting (0)  
I like this idea! I wanna see this is next and maybe last DROD!

Will it take only one turn to move or multiple?
04-06-2009 at 11:00 AM
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agaricus5
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12th Archivist wrote:
zex20913 wrote:
2. As with all multi-move requests, would Beethro be able to kill two monsters in one (normal speed) turn? Beethro cannot kill things with his body, even though he may be facing the right direction to kill another monster when he vaults. However, a slayer can kill two enemies in one turn with this.
You could kill two monsters as Beethro: once when you step onto the arrow and once after you've vaulted.

I'd say, for the sake of flawless consistency (and to prevent multiple movement trouble), that vault arrows should behave like hot tiles and only activate if you wait or swing your sword while on top of them. You would then have the choice to wait on the arrow or actually step off it before it takes effect (normal force arrow directionality should still apply, though).

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04-06-2009 at 11:08 AM
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Samuel
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agaricus5 wrote:
12th Archivist wrote:
zex20913 wrote:
2. As with all multi-move requests, would Beethro be able to kill two monsters in one (normal speed) turn? Beethro cannot kill things with his body, even though he may be facing the right direction to kill another monster when he vaults. However, a slayer can kill two enemies in one turn with this.
You could kill two monsters as Beethro: once when you step onto the arrow and once after you've vaulted.

I'd say, for the sake of flawless consistency (and to prevent multiple movement trouble), that vault arrows should behave like hot tiles and only activate if you wait or swing your sword while on top of them. You would then have the choice to wait on the arrow or actually step off it before it takes effect (normal force arrow directionality should still apply, though).
I second this motion :bangin

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04-06-2009 at 11:16 AM
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slimm tom
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agaricus5 wrote:
I'd say, for the sake of flawless consistency (and to prevent multiple movement trouble), that vault arrows should behave like hot tiles and only activate if you wait or swing your sword while on top of them. You would then have the choice to wait on the arrow or actually step off it before it takes effect (normal force arrow directionality should still apply, though).
Erm, wouldn't it still be possible to kill 2 monsters in 1 turn then?

Observe the following set-up.

> = vault arrow with Beethro on it
R = roach
x = floor

 x R x R x
 > x x x x


If Beethro would swing his sword NE, he would kill the roach, and then be vaulted 2 tiles ahead, where he would kill the other roach.

This is perhaps more clear when quoting the DROD movement rules: Player moves first, then monsters move in specific movement order. So Beethtro would swing his sword and be vaulted away immediately, before the second roach has got the opportunity to move.
04-06-2009 at 12:26 PM
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agaricus5
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slimm tom wrote:
agaricus5 wrote:
I'd say, for the sake of flawless consistency (and to prevent multiple movement trouble), that vault arrows should behave like hot tiles and only activate if you wait or swing your sword while on top of them. You would then have the choice to wait on the arrow or actually step off it before it takes effect (normal force arrow directionality should still apply, though).
Erm, wouldn't it still be possible to kill 2 monsters in 1 turn then?
To clarify, when I said "multiple movement trouble", I was referring to the problem where stepping onto a chain of Vault Arrows could lead to you moving multiple times or getting stuck in a loop. However, you're right about still being able to kill more than one monster (although I don't see that as a problem).

Then again, having the arrow only activate if you wait (or try to move contrary to it) might be interesting. Swinging while standing on it could be a means to prevent yourself from vaulting, for example.

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04-06-2009 at 01:01 PM
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slimm tom
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Thanks for clearing that up.

Still, I think we should keep the element as simple as possible, to avoid confusion and a lot of exception rules.

I think it would be a good idea to vault immediately when you step on a vault arrow, but if you land on a second one you must remain on the arrow for 1 turn to be vaulted further, to avoid infinite turn loops.

And in my opinion all monsters should be able to use the vault arrow, except for rock giants and snake types. Brained monsters would still plan a path around the arrow though, just as they do now.
04-06-2009 at 01:41 PM
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agaricus5
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slimm tom wrote:
Still, I think we should keep the element as simple as possible, to avoid confusion and a lot of exception rules.

I think it would be a good idea to vault immediately when you step on a vault arrow, but if you land on a second one you must remain on the arrow for 1 turn to be vaulted further, to avoid infinite turn loops.
I'm confused now. Isn't vaulting immediately if you step onto an arrow, but not if you've arrived there, an exception? Wouldn't my original suggestion (i.e. you must be stationary for 1 turn to activate the arrow) be more consistent?

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04-06-2009 at 03:02 PM
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slimm tom
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I think your interpretation is going to lead to more problems and exceptions than mine.

Mine uses only one exception, and is more straight-forward to new players IMO.

Also, your rule makes it inpossible to have hot tiles underneath vault arrows.

And what would happen should the player drink a speed potion and then step on a vault arrow? Will it take 1 full turn of waiting, or just 1 half of a turn?
04-06-2009 at 03:23 PM
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agaricus5
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slimm tom wrote:
I think your interpretation is going to lead to more problems and exceptions than mine. Mine uses only one exception, and is more straight-forward to new players IMO.
Hmm... I still don't see where the exception(s) is (are) in my suggestion. Could you be more explicit?

Also, your rule makes it inpossible to have hot tiles underneath vault arrows.
I don't get how your suggestion makes a hot tile under a vault arrow any more possible. If you (or something else) steps onto a vault arrow with a hot tile, the hot tile can never have an effect if you vault immediately (unless you are blocked, in which case you end up with the same effect whether you vault immediately or not). Furthermore, if you then vault onto a vault arrow with a hot tile under it, how is the resulting situation any different from my suggestion?

And what would happen should the player drink a speed potion and then step on a vault arrow? Will it take 1 full turn of waiting, or just 1 half of a turn?
I could ask you the same thing. What if a player vaults immediately while taking a speed potion, and lands on another Vault Arrow? Does he then vault again after 1/2 of a turn or at the next integer move? [For consistency with hot tiles, I think vaulting should occur at the integer move.]

All I am saying is that your exception should be the rule to make it more consistent with hot tiles, and also because there are currently no elements that allow you to move twice within a turn (speed potions don't count as you and your doubles still move only once per turn; everything else has its speed halved).

In addition, I don't see what's so difficult to understand about: "Anything ... will vault if it stands still on a vault arrow for one turn". There's only one rule there, and it's pretty clear, is it not?

Compare it with the description from the help file for hot tiles: "Anything ... will die if it stands still on a hot tile for one turn".

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04-06-2009 at 06:05 PM
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slimm tom
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Point taken. I see the similarities between our ideas now.

However, your setup won't allow easy vaulting for monsters, as a fair bunch of them moves towards you without stopping. I still favor my own mechanic, although I can see where yours comes in handy.
04-06-2009 at 06:29 PM
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Kwakstur
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Actually, both mechanics are simple and have no exceptions as long as they are in their own terms.

When you stand on one of agaricus5's arrows for one turn, you are vaulted.

If you end your turn on one of slimm tom's arrows, you will be vaulted.


I like slimm tom's arrows better because it has more puzzle potential; there are a lot more ways you can use a vault arrow that forces you to use it rather than letting you decide.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 04-06-2009 10:46 PM]
04-06-2009 at 10:45 PM
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Well, why can't an endless vault loop be fatal? Like...after a certain arbitrary high number of vaults, he just screams as he keeps vaulting and it turns dark.
04-07-2009 at 10:30 PM
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Syntax
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I would see it as each vault being connected by the same energy and needing one turn to warm up. This would avoid multiple vaulting in one go and force the player to pause/turn on the first one before the initial vault. If you then land on a new vault, you'd have to pause/turn before the next jump.

If you were to move directly onto a new vault after landing, it would have just cooled down and would need another pause/turn to cause the vault.

Oh, and the actual vaults would not be allowed on red tiles (they're made of wood and bouncy elastic which wouldn't survive the heat).
04-08-2009 at 01:44 AM
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icon Re: Pole Vaulting (+2)  
I think each vault should fade after it's been used, and light up again on the next turn. Like Syntax's idea, but the vaults aren't connected.
So:
>.V
...
^.<

would make you vault once around the circle and then land on the faded arrow- next turn all the arrows would unfade, and you could vault around again if you wanted.

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[Last edited by lopsidation at 04-08-2009 06:05 PM : Code tags]
04-08-2009 at 06:05 PM
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Elegant solution, lopsidation. Bravo! That seems acceptable to me, and what I would like to see for this in the game.

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04-08-2009 at 06:07 PM
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Syntax
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lopsidation, I think we need to avoid multiple chained vaults. The complexity would be too much hence my notion of them using the same energy.

With your idea:

What if during the first vault you hit an orb closing a door between the 2nd and 3rd vault but that you would pass if you carried on your jump but which would kill a briar as long as the goblin was trapped by the 3rd vault which could only have been killed by your sword position being in the right position on the first causing the aumtlich to trigger the bomb that would have blocked had you not been stopped by the wraithwing on the 4th vault unless you hadn't used the roach-killing position on the first vault which would have of course stopped the stalwart from stepping on the return journey and blocking you hence causing the goblin to go NE which would cause you to be in trouble having seemingly jumped through a door, killing a roach, and surviving a bomb all in one go.

Too complex I think.

I like the idea of fading though (the visible cooling off period).
04-09-2009 at 03:08 AM
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lopsidation
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That level of complexity can already be achieved with the current game elements, especially if you throw scripting into the mix- it's up to the architect not to abuse it.

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04-10-2009 at 04:04 PM
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Plus, y'know, there's still only 10 options for a single move.

Edit: And far more complex game elements: The slayer, for instance.

And stuff can happen on the other side of the room while you're moving anyway due to adders and such.

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[Last edited by Sillyman at 04-10-2009 06:59 PM]
04-10-2009 at 06:57 PM
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Sillyman wrote:
Plus, y'know, there's still only 10 options for a single move.
I'm pretty sure there's 11.

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04-12-2009 at 11:40 PM
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Kwakstur wrote:
Sillyman wrote:
Plus, y'know, there's still only 10 options for a single move.
I'm pretty sure there's 11.
Yep. You can move in 8 directions, wait a turn by standing still, or you can turn left or right. That totals up to 11 options. 13 if you count restarting and back spacing. Even more if you count looking at a demo, recording a demo, looking at the help files, taking a picture, or exiting a move.

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04-13-2009 at 12:10 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Pole Vaulting (0)  
Following that logic, we can add another bajillion or so just by using the Build Menu. But that's extremely off-topic.

I'm in favor of these sorts of ideas, which can have innocuous consequences at first but can be used to great effect - for example, one-way trips, or the catapulting of potentially-necessary monsters, possibly into pits, depending upon whether a bridge is dropped or not...

Yeah, I like this idea and think it is cool, with plenty of puzzle potential. :)

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04-13-2009 at 12:55 AM
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Jacob
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11 for every version of the player. If you've got a clone, there are 22 possible moves you can make. Etc. Etc.

This is one of the reasons I was so surprised by the introduction of clones - it significantly opens up the solution space for drod rooms, unlike no other element.

(I don't think that it makes sense to include restoring/back spacing as actual moves.)

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04-13-2009 at 12:57 AM
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