Oneiromancer
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The Eighth world being what it is, children's books are understandably different than what we are used to here on Earth. Take the following children's primer, for example, which we recently received under mysterious circumstances. I have the distinct (and unpleasant) feeling that those who sent it feel that we are not capable of understanding anything more complex.

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Smiting Snakes with Zamm and Groobus

See Zamm. Zamm is a little boy. He likes to run and play. Run, Zamm, run!

See Groobus. Groobus is Zamm’s big brother. Groobus is also a smitemaster. He carries a Really Big Sword. Smite, Groobus, Smite!

Zamm and Groobus are in a dungeon. The dungeon is scary, but Zamm is not scared! He knows that big brother Groobus can smite all the monsters!

Zamm and Groobus are in a big room. “Oh, no!” cries Groobus. “Watch out for that big, red snake!”

“Those are called serpents, big brother Groobus. Your sword will not work on them,” explains Zamm. But Groobus does not hear him. He tries to smite the serpent with his Really Big Sword. It does not work! Run, Groobus, run!

Zamm and Groobus run across a bridge. The bridge collapses after they cross. “Look, big brother Groobus!” cries Zamm. “The serpent is shrinking!” Hooray, the serpent is stuck because the bridge fell down! Shrink, serpent, shrink!

Zamm and Groobus enter a new room. “Look, Zamm, look!” cries Groobus. “Some big roaches! And another serpent!”

“No,” explains Zamm, “that snake is blue. Blue snakes are called rattlesnakes. See the big rattle on its tail? You can smite that!”

But Groobus does not hear Zamm. He does not use his Really Big Sword to smite the rattlesnake’s tail. No, Groobus tries to trap the rattlesnake. He makes the rattlesnake stuck in some big roaches. But it does not shrink like the serpent did!

“Big brother Groobus, listen to me! You can smite the rattlesnake’s rattle,” cries Zamm. This time Groobus hears Zamm. He smites the rattlesnake’s tail. Smite, Groobus, smite! Groobus smites the big roaches too. Groobus and Zamm are happy. “Hooray!”

Zamm and Groobus come to the last room. They see a big green snake. Groobus is smart this time. He asks Zamm, “What is that big green snake called? How can I smite it?”

“I think that snake is called an adder, big brother Groobus,” explains Zamm. “I do not know how to smite it, I was sick that day in school!”

“I will just have to try to trap it then,” exclaims Groobus. “And if that does not work, I will try to smite its tail!” Groobus sees some big roaches nearby, and leads them to the adder to try to trap it.

Oh, no, what is this? The adder is eating the roaches! Eat, adder, eat! And the adder is getting bigger! Grow, adder, grow! “Oh, no!” cries Groobus. “Now there is even more adder to smite!”

Groobus runs to the adder’s tail. There is no rattle, but he tries to smite it anyway with his Really Big Sword. Smite, Groobus, smite! But it does not work!

Oh no, the adder is trying to eat Zamm! Run, Zamm, run! “Help me, big brother Groobus!” cries Zamm.

Groobus does not know what to do, but he is mad! He takes a shortcut and runs up to the adder’s head. “You can not eat my little brother! Take that!” yells Groobus, and smites the adder in the head with his Really Big Sword! Powie!

“Look, Brother Groobus,” cries Zamm happily. “You hurt the adder! It is weak in the head, because it eats so much!” Groobus does not think that makes much sense, but he is happy to have something to smite! Smite, Groobus, smite!

The adder is now dead, and Zamm is safe. “I am ready to go home now, big brother Groobus,” sighs Zamm. “Okay, Zamm, I will get you there safely,” comforts Groobus. “And when we get home, we can cook up these roaches and have a big feast!”

“Hooray!” cries Zamm happily.

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Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by mrimer at 01-15-2007 07:43 PM]

Jason
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Adders that eat other monsters and are killed on their heads and are green? Wow.

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Chaco
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Ah ha, they implemented the snake that eats other monsters and... gets longer.

However, this seems to be like a rattlesnake in that you hurt it by hitting its head with your sword. If that's true, you could stand facing north, south, east, or west and smite the whole thing since it'd continually keep going at you.

Lots of puzzle potential here, since a snake can't go diagonal but monsters can.

This is the only unsworded monster that can kill other monsters. In addition, it'd be the only monster that could possibly kill guards (or slayers?)

I'm not sure if it would eat mimics or decoys though.

Is this good thinking on my part I wonder?

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[Last edited by Chaco at 01-15-2007 06:35 PM]

jbluestein
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I am deeply excited. But what happens if the adder finds a pile of logs?



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Chaco
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I believe it would probably grow to that number of cells, rounded down.

However, more subtle and sinister forces are at hand here! Even as early as this children's primer, the people who made this primer are instilling a stereotype of smitemaster stupidity unto the younger generation, by making Groobus seem deaf and stupid.

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Doom
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What an educational story. There are some small details it doesn't clarify, but those can probably wait until playing around with TCB... (exceptions with diet, shrinkability, etc.)

Doesn't sound bad at all. Possible interactions with a lot of things. Monster spawners and removing unreachable things being some of the more obvious ones...

*Adds to the confirmed list*

tokyokid
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I am really excited about TCB now... wow, think of the puzzle potential!

Chaco
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Serpents can't go over any objects at all.

Rattlesnakes can go over force arrows and scrolls.

Would adders be able to eat potions? Possibly even bombs? (now, THERE's some puzzle potential there)

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Briareos
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jbluestein wrote:
I am deeply excited. But what happens if the adder finds a pile of logs?

Which logs - natural or binary?

So if this is a snake where you smite the harmful end would that mean you can just stand there with the snake pinned to your sword and be safe, modulo approaching other enemies of course?

np: Coldcut - True Skool (Switch Remix) (Sound Mirrors Remixes)

____________________________
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R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

mrimer
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Briareos wrote:
So if this is a snake where you smite the harmful end would that mean you can just stand there with the snake pinned to your sword and be safe, modulo approaching other enemies of course?

Nope!

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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

igusarov
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Wait! What if the serpent drinks an invisibility potion? Would it, like, become invisible then?

jbluestein
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Briareos wrote:

jbluestein wrote:
I am deeply excited. But what happens if the adder finds a pile of logs?

Which logs - natural or binary?

So if this is a snake where you smite the harmful end would that mean you can just stand there with the snake pinned to your sword and be safe, modulo approaching other enemies of course?

Well, if we want flawless consistancy, an adder encountering a pile of logs should spawn, should it not?


____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck

Doom
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igusarov wrote:
Wait! What if the serpent drinks an invisibility potion? Would it, like, become invisible then?

Obviously.

Tahnan
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mrimer wrote:

Briareos wrote:
So if this is a snake where you smite the harmful end would that mean you can just stand there with the snake pinned to your sword and be safe, modulo approaching other enemies of course?

Nope!

My guess is that smiting the head of the snake nevertheless shrinks it from the tail, not the head. Still safe to hit from a diagonal square--and indeed, one can walk along hitting it (it's north of you: you move west and hit it, it moves west to follow you, so now it's north of you; lather, rinse, repeat)--but if it's orthogonal to you and you hit it, the head's still there to move onto you and eat you next turn.

TripleM
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Does the collapsing bridge mean multi-square trapdoors are in? (Probably not.)

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[Last edited by TripleM at 01-15-2007 09:20 PM]

silver
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nah. it probably referred to the regular trap door effect.

the adder might have goblinesque "approach but avoid sword" behavior... or, since it monsters, it might chase them instead of you.


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Rabscuttle
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I would guess that this serpent will not willingly move onto your sword.

But will it move unwillingly onto your sword?

Tim
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I'm wondering what will happen when two of these snakes try to eat each other...

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[Last edited by Tim at 01-15-2007 10:10 PM]

Jacob
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I doubt it will eat snakes. But how cool would it be if it ate tar and mud?
That would make for some great blackdoor-dropping puzzles.
(But I imaging these snakes only eat monsters...)

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coppro
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Now, all that's missing is the new tar variant. Here, let me write something up:



EDIT: Oh dear. I was thinking over this again, and I got the strange desire to throttle larrymurk. Does anyone have a way to stop these urgings?

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[Last edited by coppro at 01-16-2007 01:39 AM]

larrymurk
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Very nice story indeed.

We kids just love stories like these. Can you tell us more stories Uncle Neil, please?

Stephen4Louise
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Oneiromancer wrote:
See Groobus. Groobus is Zamm’s big brother. Groobus is also a smitemaster. He carries a Really Big Sword. Smite, Groobus, Smite!

So Groobus also carries a Really Big Sword, will we be playing as other characters in TCB, or is it Beethro all the way?

Steve.

Maurog
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Oneiromancer wrote:
See Groobus. Groobus is Zamm’s big brother. Groobus is also a smiter. He carries a Really Big Sword. Smite, Groobus, Smite!

Fixed.

They don't call you smitemaster until you know how to cut your snake. Seriously.

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Paint the sky in crimson red!

schep
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Maurog wrote:
They don't call you smitemaster until you know how to cut your snake. Seriously.

That depends who 'they' are. No exterminator has ever wandered deep enough to meet adders and returned to the surface. It seems to me like this book comes from the Empire. A fantastical children's tale about the strange abovegrounders, who use made-up words as names instead of normal occupations. (Aside: how are children in the Empire called? Even if many of them have their career preselected, they don't have actual ranks yet.) So perhaps to the authors, writing 'smitemaster' instead of 'delver' or something is a bit generous, to add to the fantasy. But every imperial child "knows" the abovegrounders, especially the ones who try to explore too far and too deep, are incredibly foolish.

eytanz
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Nah, the book is abovegrounder oriented. But it's aimed at children, and oversimplifies things. To take a real world example, we speak of "Bob the Builder", though he never ever built anything in any of (the very few) episodes of the show I saw.

Good question about the Empire children, though I'll need to consult with Erik before being able to answer it properly.

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Blondbeard
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Puzzle potential, yes, but also tediousness potential. This snake may never trap itself where the sword can't reach it's head. In my experience this happens quite easily in many serpent/rattle snake rooms. I hope architects will use this adder in a good way

mrimer
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Blondbeard wrote:
Puzzle potential, yes, but also tediousness potential. This snake may never trap itself where the sword can't reach it's head. In my experience this happens quite easily in many serpent/rattle snake rooms. I hope architects will use this adder in a good way

I'll say we've got a measure in place to mitigate the problems associated with this -- when the adder's head is trapped by its own body, it will shrink like a serpent.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

jbluestein
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mrimer wrote:

Blondbeard wrote:
Puzzle potential, yes, but also tediousness potential. This snake may never trap itself where the sword can't reach it's head. In my experience this happens quite easily in many serpent/rattle snake rooms. I hope architects will use this adder in a good way

I'll say we've got a measure in place to mitigate the problems associated with this -- when the adder's head is trapped by its own body, it will shrink like a serpent.

Ourourbouricide?

Autoouroubourosy?



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RoboBob3000
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Regarding the kids, I'm going to break some form of forum etiquette and link to myself.

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http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 01-16-2007 08:17 PM]

Oneiromancer
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mrimer wrote:

Blondbeard wrote:
Puzzle potential, yes, but also tediousness potential. This snake may never trap itself where the sword can't reach it's head. In my experience this happens quite easily in many serpent/rattle snake rooms. I hope architects will use this adder in a good way

I'll say we've got a measure in place to mitigate the problems associated with this -- when the adder's head is trapped by its own body, it will shrink like a serpent.

Yes, when we were first playing around with this monster, this was one of my first concerns--so don't worry too much in that regard, Blondbeard, we want the new elements to be fun on their own, and let the tediousness be up to the architects.

In the context of these "...of interest" pieces, we are not giving out every single piece of information about the elements. I did actually consider whether or not to put that information into this piece, but I couldn't think of any way to do it that made any sense. These are teasers, with information about the new elements in each one intentionally vague, so feel free to guess away; they have been developed for a pretty long time now and you may be surprised what we already thought about and which of your guesses are correct and which aren't...

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams