Announcement: Why not try our official idea generator for inspiration when making puzzles?

Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Imperial Wandering (And now for something somewhat different)
Page 1 of 2
2
 New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Imperial Wandering (+4)  
This hold is now released. See the Holds board thread to download.

I wasn't exactly sure whether to put this on Architecture at the same time as two other holds of mine being on there, but I figured this hold was interesting enough that others might want to see it.

This hold still resembles "traditional" Deadly Rooms Of Death in the way that the focus here is killing monsters. However, our protagonist in this hold is 53rd Tar Technician, a somewhat bored Citizen of the Rooted Empire who - well, you'll see.

As such, this hold focuses mostly on the mechanics and differences between a sworded and non-sworded character attempting to clear out dungeons, with a bit of story.

So, if you have the time, you can play it through, and maybe tell me what you think about it in this thread.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 07-26-2008 04:45 PM]
08-31-2007 at 04:18 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
jbluestein
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1670
Registered: 12-23-2005
IP: Logged

File: IW SABERS Chambers 1S Victory.demo (1.4 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (+2)  
It should come as no surprise that I like the puzzles in here alot. Swordless puzzles are IMO a lot of fun (although there are some pretty obvious differences between a swordless character and a swordless Beethro).

Most of the rooms seem pretty good. There were a couple where my solutions seemed a little haphazard, so they may be unintended.

Click here to view the secret text


Josh

____________________________
"Rings and knots of joy and grief, all interlaced and locking." --William Buck
[Last edited by jbluestein at 08-31-2007 07:20 PM]
08-31-2007 at 07:00 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (+1)  
jbluestein wrote:
Case Study: 1S1W
Click here to view the secret text


This is fine. The intention is that the first part and the second part play differently, although they look similar.

S.A.B.E.R.S. Chambers: 2S1E
Click here to view the secret text


Nope, it's not supposed to be. One force arrow was facing the wrong way. Fixed.

S.A.B.E.R.S. Chambers: 1S
Click here to view the secret text


Okay, very funny. :) Fixed by putting some oremites next to the wall in question.

I've also added a hold description, a hold ending, and some demos that play on the Change Location screen and the Watch Demo screen.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 08-31-2007 09:34 PM]
08-31-2007 at 09:19 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
In S.A.B.E.R.S. 1E the Tar Technician says "whatever direction youface". Think that should be in 1st person.
09-01-2007 at 03:07 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
I'll fix that at some point before this makes it to the Holds board, but I won't make a new attachment just for that one fix.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text
09-01-2007 at 03:14 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 962
Registered: 05-16-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
I don't understand, the technician says he can grab clone potions, but I can't actually clone the technician.

____________________________
I make Let's Plays too!
Click here to find out my LPs' progress, and find out what I plan to tackle next!

Currently playing:
Click here to view the secret text


My Holds:
-Completed:
Click here to view the secret text

-Work in Progress:
Click here to view the secret text
09-03-2007 at 11:02 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
You have to use the power token before you can use clone, speed, and invisibility potions.

Once you've done that, cloning is done using the exact same process as you would with Beethro - move 53rd Tar Technician on top of the potion, then use the direction keys to determine the initial placement of the clone.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 09-03-2007 11:19 PM]
09-03-2007 at 11:18 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Chaco wrote:
...move 53rd Tar Technician on top of the potion, then use the direction keys to determine the initial placement of the clone.

Or the mouse. How cool is that? Also clicking can be used to switch between clones.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
09-03-2007 at 11:22 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 962
Registered: 05-16-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
I know how to do this with speed and invisible ones, but the clones don't work.

____________________________
I make Let's Plays too!
Click here to find out my LPs' progress, and find out what I plan to tackle next!

Currently playing:
Click here to view the secret text


My Holds:
-Completed:
Click here to view the secret text

-Work in Progress:
Click here to view the secret text
09-04-2007 at 01:40 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Are you using 3.0.0 or 3.1.0?

That's the only thing I can think of that would not be working, unless you think you triggered the power token in the room and you didn't.

Anyway, there are more than a few rooms in this hold that rely on clone potions working, so I guess you're stuck unless you can explain exactly what's happening.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text
09-04-2007 at 02:12 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
This is a pretty damn cool hold.
Two comments: maybe it's just me but in this hold (as well as Terrakept Resonant) there are several rooms with just tons going on and it's not even clear where to begin. For example Case Study 1E (for which I had 10 potions left over). It took a bit of clicking and experimenting to see what was going on. It might be nice to have a bit of speech like "Hmm, so if I get all the roaches onto the bridges, the builders will do the work for me", or something so the player can orient themselves. (There was a similarly confusing room near the start of TR with a couple of mimic potions at the start of a big complex room and I was pretty clueless where the mimics were meant to go)

[question about how to do a room removed]

Edit: H+S board phenomenon - literally 1 minute later I cracked it. Not as hard as I was making it.

Edit: Looks like we've used a similar kind of puzzle
Click here to view the secret text
Nice.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Jacob at 09-05-2007 12:39 AM]
09-05-2007 at 12:01 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
For example: Case Study 1E. It took a bit of clicking and experimenting to see what was going on.

It might be nice to have a bit of speech like "Hmm, so if I get all the roaches onto the bridges, the builders will do the work for me", or something so the player can orient themselves.

Yeah, Case Study is meant to be the first level, so I think some speech may be in order here. Sometimes some of my rooms just end up looking too complicated.

And I intentionally added way too many potions into the room, for people like you who might be compelled to not use them.

And a question: how does the bottom bit of case study 1S1E work? I just can't manipulate the mimic well enough, and so I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

That one's tricky. I imagine you've already worked out what's supposed to happen, so I'll cover the specifics:

Click here to view the secret text


EDIT:

Nice to see I stumped you somehow, if only for a little bit.

Anyway, I agree with your criticism of the particular room in Terrakept Resonant, although I think further commentary on that hold belongs in its particular thread, and not this one. But I've gone back and added some speech to a few rooms in both holds.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 09-05-2007 12:22 AM]
09-05-2007 at 12:09 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Conquered but not yet mastered.
Excellent hold. It's too short, I want more! Cool little story on top of the very clever rooms.
I would have had a more detailed look at TR, but now the official HAs are looking at it, there's not too much point.

Edit: Wow, fegundos don't move if you're invisible! I never knew that before.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Jacob at 09-05-2007 10:34 AM]
09-05-2007 at 12:52 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Jacob wrote:
Excellent hold. It's too short, I want more! Cool little story on top of the very clever rooms.

Your attitude is justified; the previous version really only has two levels.

I've immediately set about fixing this by including a third level, and providing a tiny extension of story to cover it.

I have also added speech to Case Study: 1E and Case Study: 1S.

A couple of the rooms on the third level are pretty interesting, in my opinion. :)

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text
09-12-2007 at 01:51 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Have played through 4 rooms of the new level. Good fun.
1N1E is a work of genius. I just didn't understand what was going on for ages - why the weird pattern of pressure plates under the mud? why the power token (there's only one baby and it's trapped, and no fegundi)? But then it all clicked - great room.

2N1E however is just driving me mad. Fegundo manipulation to provide protection from numerous spawning tar babies, while moving a mimic over trapdoors and through more spawning babies, all with a time limit?? That's just craziness. I have noticed that there's maybe a possibility of getting babies up in the top left of the tar mother chamber, leaving it as cuttable and removing the time limit, but have not managed to do this yet. Is this what I'm meant to do? Is there a trick to it, or is it just an evil efficiency room? Can I get a demo?

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
09-18-2007 at 12:34 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
1N1E is a work of genius.

I agree. :)

2N1E however is just driving me mad.

2N1W (the room I think you meant) can be as hard as you're making it if you take the incorrect steps :)

First, note that there are doors in front of the eastern baby-spawning blobs...

Click here to view the secret text


Second, obviously you are triggering the power token on the spawn so you have maximum time available. So, since the eastern mud blobs will be shut off as aforementioned...

Click here to view the secret text


The rest is just moving the mimic efficiently enough to get to the mud mother (or using a mud baby to block mud as you've noted)

The three rooms branching off of this room are rather good I think :)

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text
09-18-2007 at 08:28 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Chaco wrote:

2N1W (the room I think you meant) can be as hard as you're making it if you take the incorrect steps :)

First, note that there are doors in front of the eastern baby-spawning blobs...

Second, obviously you are triggering the power token on the spawn so you have maximum time available. So, since the eastern mud blobs will be shut off as aforementioned...


Yep, it's 2N1W. I'd noted the above 2 points already, but was still struggling.
Oh well, the power cord (AC adaptor thingy) just decided to go kaput, so once this battery dies out, I'll be computerless, and more importantly DRODless until I find a fix/replacement.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
09-18-2007 at 10:09 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
I have not changed Mud Tanks 2N1W, but I have made it possible to access two of the rooms beyond it without playing it.

In other news, I thought the hold was still pretty short, so I have added two more levels - an Aumtlich level and a builder level. That brings the total to five, which makes the hold a decent length.

As always, I've probably missed something, so feel free to report any solutions that seem unintended.

Also, I think the hold is probably about finished in terms of levels - I certainly think it has enough puzzles to stand as it is now, and it's of decent length and excellent quality, in my opinion.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 10-12-2007 12:12 AM]
10-12-2007 at 12:10 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
A new version has been uploaded.

Due to some comments that Dank Corridors was a difficult level, I have made the level skippable (although it must still be completed to complete the hold.)

The final level, Repulsive Emulsions, has been added.

A new puzzle has been added to the Hall of Mastery.

I'd appreciate some feedback on what rooms you liked, or what rooms seemed out of place.

After some amount of fixes and testing, a slightly modified version with a bit more content in the Hall of Mastery will be submitted to the Hold Administrators.

EDIT:

Also note that the new level uses my Voids 3.0 style - if you don't have that installed the level will be in the City style.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 11-10-2007 09:42 PM]
11-10-2007 at 07:28 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
OK, starting up where I left off...

2N2W is quite cool, though I'm not sure I understand the point of the top right section (and the associated mimic and bomb sections at the bottom).

3N1W I'm not sure I get. I freed the mimic, cleared all the trapdoors, mud mother, roaches and queens, other than the bottom two. Hit the orb and killed the remaining queens and roaches. Didn't need to step on a power token. If this is intended, I'm not sure I see the appeal. If I'm meant to to step on a power token, then this is just going to involve some horrible roach avoidance of masses of roaches, with only a mimic to protect me.

Which leads me onto 2N1W - which for some reason I just cannot get. I can survive the onslaught of the mud babies with the fegundo, but can never get the mimic to the mother in time. Can I get a demo?

I've played some of the later rooms in the editor, and there are some very cool ones, but I'd rather go through things in sequence.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 12:58 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

File: IW Mud Tanks 2N1W Victory.demo (1.7 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (+1)  
Jacob wrote:
2N2W is quite cool, though I'm not sure I understand the point of the top right section (and the associated mimic and bomb sections at the bottom).

The point of the top right section is to make sure the mimic in the left hand side is still surrounded by mud after you've swung its sword around in a circle.

3N1W I'm not sure I get. I freed the mimic, cleared all the trapdoors, mud mother, roaches and queens, other than the bottom two. Hit the orb and killed the remaining queens and roaches. Didn't need to step on a power token. If this is intended, I'm not sure I see the appeal. If I'm meant to to step on a power token, then this is just going to involve some horrible roach avoidance of masses of roaches, with only a mimic to protect me.

Well, you do have to realise two things - hitting the power token is a bad idea in this room, as you've pointed out, and also that tackling the roach queens in the wrong order will make them inaccessible since they flee the decoys' influence.

It's not too good of a mud room though, so I'm not so sure about what I should do with it.

Which leads me onto 2N1W - which for some reason I just cannot get. I can survive the onslaught of the mud babies with the fegundo, but can never get the mimic to the mother in time. Can I get a demo?

I've played some of the later rooms in the editor, and there are some very cool ones, but I'd rather go through things in sequence.

Yeah, the intended solution is to use a mud baby to plug up the mud. Demo attached.

I'm thinking I might just replace this with something else, since this room still blocks Twice North (which is a good room in my opinion)

Either of these two rooms might still be kept available in the Hall of Mastery if replaced.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 11-11-2007 03:01 PM]
11-11-2007 at 02:53 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Chaco wrote:
The point of the top right section is to make sure the mimic in the left hand side is still surrounded by mud after you've swung its sword around in a circle.

But my mimic isn't surrounded by mud. There's only a 2x2 square of mud left the way I do it (overlying the central pressure plate.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 03:25 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
That's not good. Can I see a demo of how you are doing this? The idea is that you are supposed to have a mimic on the pressure plate, surrounded by mud in such a way that it cannot break out.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 04:08 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged

File: IW Mud Tanks 2N2W Victory.demo (1.7 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Well, as I say, you can just stick some mud on it instead.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 04:40 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Of course, mud can't grow on force arrows or orthogonal tiles (or scrolls)...

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 04:50 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
It's so much easier to see unintended solutions once they're pointed out to you.

Yes, an orthogonal tile on top of that pressure plate would do nicely.

A new version with that fix and some others will be uploaded soon.

EDIT:

Alright, the new version is up. An orthogonal tile has been placed on the central pressure plate in Mud Tanks: 2N2W.

Some more lighting was added in various areas.

Some checkpoints were added to some rooms in Plaster Passages and Repulsive Emulsions.

Still to do: think of puzzles to replace Mud Tanks 2N1W and 3N1W.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 11-11-2007 05:00 PM]
11-11-2007 at 04:51 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1214
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Wow! I just noticed this hold Chaco! Wish I had noticed it earlier! Downloading now.
11-11-2007 at 05:09 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Click here to view the secret text



____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 06:43 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Jacob wrote:
Click here to view the secret text


I'd like to see a demo outlining what you mean - you're supposed to need everything in the room.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Chaco at 11-11-2007 06:50 PM]
11-11-2007 at 06:48 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged

File: IW Dank Corridors 1S2E Victory.demo (1.6 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain
 icon Re: Imperial Wandering (0)  
Can do.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text
11-11-2007 at 07:01 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Page 1 of 2
2
 New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Imperial Wandering (And now for something somewhat different)
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.