Mattcrampy
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The problem I have with this is that it throws a lot of predictability out the window. I think that custom monsters are a violation of the principle that the game mechanics should be exposed as much as possible, and there doesn't appear to be any good reason to have custom monster movement other than for custom monsters.

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TFMurphy
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Mattcrampy wrote:
The problem I have with this is that it throws a lot of predictability out the window. I think that custom monsters are a violation of the principle that the game mechanics should be exposed as much as possible, and there doesn't appear to be any good reason to have custom monster movement other than for custom monsters.

I don't buy that. By that argument, any new element throws predictability out the window. I don't recall being taught all the features of Mud or Gel immediately after seeing them - I had to learn about them the same way everyone else did. Those mechanics only became "exposed" as I interacted with them more and more. They certainly weren't in the help file. On top of that, we've had entire threads dedicated to exploring the movement AI of various things: serpents crop up again and again as a decent example. The only way to have known how serpents moved the very very first time you ever met them was to have looked at the source code or gotten an explanation from elsewhere, since everything certainly wasn't given to you in the game or in the help files.

Custom monsters are only a violation of predictability if the architect misuses them - just like any other form of scripting. If they, however, are consistent in their use of it, then it becomes just as predictable as any new element for the player to learn. And learning how to fit new elements and small changes into your strategy can be a fair and entertaining puzzle in itself.

Tahnan
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TFMurphy wrote:

Mattcrampy wrote:
The problem I have with this is that it throws a lot of predictability out the window.

Custom monsters are only a violation of predictability if the architect misuses them - just like any other form of scripting.

This, to me, is the strongest part of TFMurphy's argument. All scripting introduces an element of unpredictability.(*) Stairs mark a level exit; with scripting, you have no way of guessing what other square might be a level exit. Hitting an orb or pressure plate affects a yellow door; with scripting, you have no way of guessing what other action might affect the door. And so on, for nearly every other scripting command we have.

This feature request doesn't throw predictability out the window--predictability is already out the window.(**) What it does is increase the ways that an architect can be unpredictable, which as always can be a bad thing in the hands of an unskilled architect; but a skilled architect will explain, one way or another, whatever scripting you'll be facing.

* Even speech, in a sense, though that doesn't typically change your interaction with the room.
** I recently re-completed King Dugan's Dungeon 2.0, and if you don't think unpredictability has been around since the beginning, I urge you to replay Level 25, especially 2S.

calamarain
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Tahnan wrote:
** I recently re-completed King Dugan's Dungeon 2.0, and if you don't think unpredictability has been around since the beginning, I urge you to replay Level 25, especially 2S.

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment - there is a pattern of 2S that can be deduced with time and work, but I will agree that it is not immediately obvious.

Scripting works best when it is either behind the scenes (for dialogue and NPC movement where you can't interact with them) or when it is clear and obvious what's happening. e.g. have a custom image floor, and when you step on that, something straightforward happens (walls vanish or something), and have an explanation of what happens somewhere.

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[Last edited by calamarain at 09-03-2007 06:39 PM]

Tim
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TFMurphy wrote:
Custom monsters are only a violation of predictability if the architect misuses them - just like any other form of scripting. If they, however, are consistent in their use of it, then it becomes just as predictable as any new element for the player to learn. And learning how to fit new elements and small changes into your strategy can be a fair and entertaining puzzle in itself.

I don't buy this at all. Custom monsters that can only mimic the current monsters moveset is going to be misused (b)y stupid architects. Any self-respecting architect wouldn't use those since they distract players from their experience. And why whould any good architect spend a lot of time to build this properly if everyone else expect it to be inconsistent? As the saying goes, if you design an element that is really useful for bad architects, only bad architects will use it.

I'm sure this element has the potential to be the worst element being created, because players will expect them to be erratic. And learning how a new monster work that is going to be used for only that one hold, is a waste of time. And personally, I'd rather choose to solve puzzles using existing elements, and since you've known the rules already, the puzzles must be good. Every stupid architect can probably make an interesting hold using new elements, but how many architects do you know who can make a good roach only hold?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-04-2007 06:24 PM]

Jatopian
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Tim wrote:
And learning how a new monster work that is going to be used for only that one hold, is a waste of time.

I don't know, I thought The Secret of the Slayer was rather fun.

how many architects do you know who can make a good roach only hold?

I like how this is a subtle self-promotion

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Chaco
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Tim wrote:
Every stupid architect can probably make an interesting hold using new elements, but how many architects do you know who can make a good roach only hold?

First of all, I'm going to refer to the group you're thinking of as "initiate" architects, which I think is a less rude term.

I respectfully disagree with this part of your argument. So providing initiate architects with movement options will make them automatically make interesting holds? We've seen bad holds with a lot of elements and bad holds with fewer elements. Bad Evil Restaurant and Deep Hold (the two worst holds I can think of right now) didn't even need rattlesnakes, scripting, or builders. And I'm of the opinion that initiates will still probably not squeeze all the puzzle potential out of that group.

What this scripting request does is allow us to make /new/ monsters that behave differently than is possible without using scripting. Custom monsters don't necessarily have to mimic the current monster moveset - they can expand it and provide new behavior, which with the wise use of variables, player location, and self location, is probably limitless. I think that good architects can use these preferences and still make the entities predictable, without "distracting" the players.

Feature requests are made so that good architects can make better holds, not so that initiate architects can make less bad holds. And in this case, if you believe that custom monsters used in only one hold is a waste of time, that's fine. You don't have to play those holds. If it's a waste of time for you to play Deep Hold, you don't have to play it! There will still be a lot of "traditional" holds using completely predictable elements by "good" architects, whatever your arbitrary qualifications for "good" are.

but how many architects do you know who can make a good roach only hold?

Several - you aren't the only one. There also have been many good roach only levels too - King Dugan's Dungeon First Level, Phil's Dungeon First Level, Simon's Dungeon First Level, and Nanfro Budkin's First Dungeon First Level ring any bells?

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Tim
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Chaco wrote:
I respectfully disagree with this part of your argument. So providing initiate architects with movement options will make them automatically make interesting holds? [rest of the quote snipped to reduce space]

I think you missed my point. The point is, whenever a new monster type is introduced (whether it is mimicing or only using part of many movesets), players will be trying to learn it movement, and that is usually the puzzle, because that is usually hard enough for most people. For a monster-first hold, it is very difficult to add really interesting puzzles to it, since most people will find it unfair figuring out the movement and the puzzle. That could be the reason that the main DROD holds are easier than they could have. If you use existing elements, it's much easier to make really good puzzles.

Compare this to learning English. It's a "great" puzzle to understand each new idiom to understand a sentence, but if you really want to talk to friends about the latest french cuisine, you don't want to explain every word you're saying.

About my other question, you've missed my point as well. And that is: how many architects who make those roach only holds use scripting for monsters?

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calamarain
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Tim wrote:
I think you missed my point. The point is, whenever a new monster type is introduced (whether it is mimicing or only using part of many movesets), players will be trying to learn it movement, and that is usually the puzzle, because that is usually hard enough for most people.

I must disagree. Provided the movement of a new monster is predictable (but different from an existing one)... how is it any different to when we were progressing through TCB or JtRH for the first time? When I first encountered the Forbidden Gel, it was an entirely new experience. Same for Rock Giants, wubbas, the works.

Yes, if the movement is overly complex and silly it won't work - but a good architect can create interesting puzzles using a new monster, gradually introducing its quirks and movement patterns and letting you learn about it by doing the puzzles, just like it was done in JtRH and TCB.

(that might not have been entirely clear, excuse me if it sounds silly, I'm functioning on only a few hours sleep here)

I am actually trying to do this myself, I have created a new monster, and trying to create a few initial rooms to teach you about its movements and quirks, just as was done in TCB/JtRH, so that you can progress to fuller puzzles that assume you know its movement. I don't claim to be a good architect yet (I have a lot to learn), but I'm certainly not a crap one either

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[Last edited by calamarain at 09-03-2007 10:19 PM]

Chaco
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Tim wrote:
I think you missed my point. The point is, whenever a new monster type is introduced (whether it is mimicing or only using part of many movesets), players will be trying to learn it movement, and that is usually the puzzle, because that is usually hard enough for most people. For a monster-first hold, it is very difficult to add really interesting puzzles to it, since most people will find it unfair figuring out the movement and the puzzle. That could be the reason that the main DROD holds are easier than they could have. If you use existing elements, it's much easier to make really good puzzles.

You're correct - that's why all those levels I mentioned happen to be easier than the levels later in those holds.

However, if the movement is explained or otherwise hinted at in easy levels, and then the new scripted element is used in more difficult situations that will comprise the main part of the hold, then I think it can still work out well. If learning movement and actual puzzles are separated for scripting elements, I think it will work much better than a single room where the player says "I don't even know what the point of the room is yet, I don't even know how this thing moves".

Compare this to learning English. It's a "great" puzzle to understand each new idiom to understand a sentence, but if you really want to talk to friends about the latest french cuisine, you don't want to explain every word you're saying.

To attempt to continue your analogy:

Hopefully, before attempting to hold a conversation about a complicated topic, all parties will already know the meaning of the words that they are saying before the conversation even begins.

About my other question, you've missed my point as well. And that is: how many architects who make those roach only holds use scripting for monsters?

None, because scripting couldn't be used for monsters in DROD: AE, and only sworded characters could be monsters in DROD 2.0 (and they didn't receive very much use) But now that the Deadly imperative and the Move To Player abilities have been implemented, it's possible to code something that is deadly to the player and tries to get to it somehow. But that just leads us full circle into the problem that there's only two ways that monster could go about doing this - using unbrained guard movement or using golem movement. Simulating the roach AI would allow it to "slide" without going around walls as it tries to go towards the player, and simulating wraithwing AI would allow the monster to stop at appropriate moments.

The current system gives us only two methods of getting the monster to go towards the player - all we can really vary is the duration it attempts this and possibly some intervening behavior on every x turns. If we had some more options, we might actually be able to try creating new AI.

Do let me know if I'm still missing the point - we might just have different viewpoints on this issue, in which case we can just respectfully agree to disagree about it.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-03-2007 10:29 PM]

Tim
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calamarain wrote:

Tim wrote:
I think you missed my point. The point is, whenever a new monster type is introduced (whether it is mimicing or only using part of many movesets), players will be trying to learn it movement, and that is usually the puzzle, because that is usually hard enough for most people.

I must disagree. Provided the movement of a new monster is predictable (but different from an existing one)... how is it any different to when we were progressing through TCB or JtRH for the first time? When I first encountered the Forbidden Gel, it was an entirely new experience. Same for Rock Giants, wubbas, the works.

First off, I think you are a good architect. But you explained my point much better than I do. If you are going to make rooms that is only based on learning the specific movement rules and quirks, that is what you get. Hell, I'm now currently trying to catch Pokémons and train them just because I want to know what they can do.

Sure, that is an interesting experience. But that alone doesn't make interesting puzzles. Puzzles is the stuff beyond movement rules and quirks. The stuff that's above the "guess-the-rule". In the latest versions of DROD, Caravel tried to make the player easier to see all the rules even before solving a room (for example, clickable orbs, tunnels, bombs, eyes, and the undo key). With an introduction of new commands like this one, it will throw DROD back into the "guess-the-quirk" era. I don't think Caravel wants to go that direction. In that case, we should be consistent, and also ask them to remove all those helpful things like clickable orbs. And I don't like that.

EDIT: I really want to continue this discussion tomorrow, but I really need to go to bed now.

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[Last edited by Tim at 09-03-2007 10:46 PM]

calamarain
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Tim wrote:
But you explained my point much better than I do. If you are going to make rooms that is only based on learning the specific movement rules and quirks, that is what you get. Hell, I'm now currently trying to catch Pokémons and train them just because I want to know what they can do.

Sure, that is an interesting experience. But that alone doesn't make interesting puzzles. Puzzles is the stuff beyond movement rules and quirks.

Of course That's why you need to both make a few rooms for the new creation not to become unknown and then use it in puzzles. Just as was done in JtRH, e.g. Mud. It was introduced relatively early on, and after you'd learned its patterns, later puzzles simply assumed you knew them and then you got into the cool stuff that you describe.

I'm trying (and hopefully succeeding) to do just that, have a few rooms for you to learn how my monster moves, and then go into, as you phrase it, "the stuff beyond movement rules and quirks" that makes it interesting.

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Jutt
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Wether it's wise or not to implement, we cannot deny that simulating monster movement seems to be the most wanted of all feature requests. Yet I'm surprised that mostly people rerquest to implement features like "act like monster", where they ask from the game to present them ready made AI's.

I have done some tests myself with simulating monster movement, both with exsisting AI and with my own ideas, and I have to admit that most of the time I get stuck, concluding the available commands are not sufficient. But it always seems I'm close enough, and just missing two vital commands to get things working properly.

The two features I'm thinking of are:
- Being able to get the current coordinates of an NPC relative to the player (or possibly other entities).
- The ability to check if a certain move is actually possible (ie. there are no obstacles blocking that movement).
I believe that those together would make many types of movement scriptable*, without the need of any pre-programmed AI's. the commands are relatively simple and may even have other practical uses.

Ok, I have to admit that with these additions movement scripting is still not trivial, but I think certainly made much easier, and in a much more varied way than possible with the already implemeted AI movements.

So all in all I rather see commands added that make overall make scripting more powerfull than commands that focus on just one specific feature, in this case providing a specific monster AI.


* I'm quite sure these two commands would do the trick, but if someone has other ideas on this, I'd be glad to hear them.

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zonhin
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Jutt, You're right, but some people just don't have the skill to do something like that. Thus I think it would be best if we had both.

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mrimer
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Jutt wrote:
The two features I'm thinking of are:
- Being able to get the current coordinates of an NPC relative to the player (or possibly other entities).
- The ability to check if a certain move is actually possible (ie. there are no obstacles blocking that movement).
I believe that those together would make many types of movement scriptable*, without the need of any pre-programmed AI's. the commands are relatively simple and may even have other practical uses.

These are useful and powerful scripting additions. I'd like to see this and more included in a future major release iteration (e.g. 3.2 or later).

Another addition that seems useful at this stage is including something like a "script library" in a hold, which you could reference kind of like subroutines from any NPC's personal script. Or maybe attaching a single script to all custom NPCs of a given type. So, whenever you create a custom NPC, you can specify what script all NPCs of this type would run. Then you don't need to go around copy-and-pasting the same NPC everywhere you'd want to use it as a monster type, and people could distribute "Script widgets" as new, general-use monster types. There are several flavors of how to implement this, as you see. I haven't settled on a True Way yet, so I'm letting the idea percolate more.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 09-04-2007 06:41 PM]

Jatopian
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Jutt wrote:
The two features I'm thinking of are:
- Being able to get the current coordinates of an NPC relative to the player (or possibly other entities).
- The ability to check if a certain move is actually possible (ie. there are no obstacles blocking that movement).
I believe that those together would make many types of movement scriptable*, without the need of any pre-programmed AI's. the commands are relatively simple and may even have other practical uses.

I think I'd extend these to determining precisely what is on another square, something like

If...
  relative(1,-2) is force arrow (northeast)
Else If...
  relative(1,-2) is force arrow (east)

In fact, if this were implemented along with text->script, it would almost obviate the need for "mimic AI" commands - someone would only have to code the AIs up once and post them on the forum for all to use.

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Sillyman
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mrimer wrote:
These are useful and powerful scripting additions. I'd like to see this and more included in a future major release iteration (e.g. 3.2 or later).

Another addition that seems useful at this stage is including something like a "script library" in a hold, which you could reference kind of like subroutines from any NPC's personal script. Or maybe attaching a single script to all custom NPCs of a given type. So, whenever you create a custom NPC, you can specify what script all NPCs of this type would run. Then you don't need to go around copy-and-pasting the same NPC everywhere you'd want to use it as a monster type, and people could distribute "Script widgets" as new, general-use monster types. There are several flavors of how to implement this, as you see. I haven't settled on a True Way yet, so I'm letting the idea percolate more.

Yes! After 2 pages of debate, we have the solution! And may I suggest a few ideas for the script library:

* Have the subroutines not in a hold, but in a global repository.
* Editing permissions can be handled the same way as hold editing permissions. (Allow the creator to edit, those with permission to view and copy, and everyone else to just run)
* Subroutines are in separate files to import, just stop a hold from importing if a dependency is unfufilled.
* Holds downloaded ingame through CaravelNet automatically download any required subroutines
* Make an area to publish subroutines separately, in a manner similar to Holds, but a different category of new content. (Ingame downloading perhaps in the menu to select a subroutine to edit or use in the editor.)

If you establish these five things, the subroutine feature may flourish and grow a section of the community almost like the sharing of holds.

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Kwakstur
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Sillyman wrote:
Yes! After 2 pages of debate, we have the solution! And may I suggest a few ideas for the script library:

* Have the subroutines not in a hold, but in a global repository.
* Editing permissions can be handled the same way as hold editing permissions. (Allow the creator to edit, those with permission to view and copy, and everyone else to just run)
* Subroutines are in separate files to import, just stop a hold from importing if a dependency is unfufilled.
* Holds downloaded ingame through CaravelNet automatically download any required subroutines
* Make an area to publish subroutines separately, in a manner similar to Holds, but a different category of new content. (Ingame downloading perhaps in the menu to select a subroutine to edit or use in the editor.)

If you establish these five things, the subroutine feature may flourish and grow a section of the community almost like the sharing of holds.

Editing permissions for libraries: No. They should all be full-edit.

And I think it sounds rather amusing to have exported routines, each with thier own dedicated file. May I ask what use it has?
EDIT: Nevermind that question, mrimer's post makes the answer clear.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 09-18-2007 12:07 AM]

Sillyman
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The reason I said there should be editing permissions for libraries was that some people might not want their scripts fully exposed, much like people might not want their holds fully exposed until they are mastered. And you can't have them be editable by other people without copying, as that could break something. But I can't see a way to have permissions similar to Conqueror-Edit or Master-Edit for subroutines.

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mrimer
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Sillyman wrote:
The reason I said there should be editing permissions for libraries was that some people might not want their scripts fully exposed, much like people might not want their holds fully exposed until they are mastered. And you can't have them be editable by other people without copying, as that could break something. But I can't see a way to have permissions similar to Conqueror-Edit or Master-Edit for subroutines.

Hmm...our Unix-based fanbase may like the idea of global modular scripts accessible by different holds and with varying levels of user access and edit permissions, but I think we'd stick with having script routines local to a hold. There's no downside to this besides having to copy recycled scripts to other holds. Memory isn't the issue here -- it's user-interface convenience. Having to import and export scripts and maintain script version info just adds another layer of indirection, but doesn't grant more convenience to the architect, and could be a huge hassle to the player. If people want a public repository of cool, custom scripts, they can always just maintain a thread of them on the forum. They may already be exported and imported to clipboard text via Ctrl-B and Ctrl-Shift-B in 3.0.

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Kwakstur
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How are you planning to implement script libraries, interface-wise? Is there going to be a "Script Library" button in the editor (which has no space left for buttons), or are you going to set a flag for NPCs to allow thier "functions" to be called (meaning they are required in each room, which makes this pointless)?

I'm interested in if there is a way to add this without problems.

Edit: Okay, I had a decent-er, but still not perfect, solution: Putting it in the "Settings" dialog. I am interested in what you have in mind, though.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 09-19-2007 02:53 AM]

Someone Else
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He isn't. We can just export the code into a unified thread to make a database, such as I've started http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=17750]here. This is what he suggested.

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[Last edited by Someone Else at 09-19-2007 07:25 PM]

mrimer
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Kwakstur wrote:
How are you planning to implement script libraries, interface-wise?

I gave some ideas for this already several posts up.

Edit: Okay, I had a decent-er, but still not perfect, solution: Putting it in the "Settings" dialog. I am interested in what you have in mind, though.

Eh? In the player preferences screen? No way.

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Kwakstur
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mrimer wrote:

Kwakstur wrote:
How are you planning to implement script libraries, interface-wise?

I gave some ideas for this already several posts up.

I sort of see it, now. I had figured the post was just a general idea (made before the specifics were worked out), but looking at it, it is more specific than I thought.

Edit: Okay, I had a decent-er, but still not perfect, solution: Putting it in the "Settings" dialog. I am interested in what you have in mind, though.

Eh? In the player preferences screen? No way.

I thought not. That was a last minute attempt to contribute something (as opposed to my previous habit of asking a hundred questions without ever giving back).

Wow, I can't believe only one post was made on this board since I last visited; I would've thought that in 5 days, more would've happened.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 09-21-2007 08:57 PM]

Briareos
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Kwakstur wrote:
Wow, I can't believe only one post was made on this board since I last visited; I would've thought that in 5 days, more would've happened.

Well, everyone's been so busy looking for bugs in the latest patch release candidate that no-one had time to think up new features...

np: Contriva - Seaside (If You Had Stayed...)

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calamarain
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Briareos wrote:

Kwakstur wrote:
Wow, I can't believe only one post was made on this board since I last visited; I would've thought that in 5 days, more would've happened.

Well, everyone's been so busy looking for bugs in the latest patch release candidate that no-one had time to think up new features...

np: Contriva - Seaside (If You Had Stayed...)

Mmmm. Though pardon what seems like self-promotion, but I can't think of any other way to say it - if you're interested in a scripted monster that's unique, my hold that's in beta at the moment has one. It might be a good example of what you can do.

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