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Jacob
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Chaco wrote:
In other words, I didn't see very much variation in those three rooms, and they were much, much easier than the rooms in some of the earlier levels.

Oops, I thought I'd eradicated all those pesky trivial solutions.

Edit: And fixed in record time. For some reason I'd assumed that to take the Conquer token you'd need to drop the trapdoor. Why? Incidentally, Chaco's solution is more or less right for one of the rooms.


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[Last edited by Jacob at 09-05-2007 01:00 PM]
08-29-2007 at 05:54 PM
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jbluestein
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File: TG Halls of Variation 2E Victory.demo (1.5 KB)
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Concur with Chaco. (In case it wasn't obvious, I did solve the first two rooms...)

I'm attaching a demo that shows off what I'm pretty sure is an unintended solution for the other three variant rooms. Not that I've figured out the intended solution yet.

Josh

[EDIT: Never mind.]

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[Last edited by jbluestein at 08-29-2007 06:57 PM]
08-29-2007 at 06:53 PM
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jbluestein
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OK, I think I see what the actual solutions are for these rooms now. Usually, variant rooms are presented such that the easiest one is first and you have to solve progressively more difficult rooms as you go on. In this case, it's harder to tell which is the starting point, but it looks to me like the order is bottom to top, easiest to hardest. Yes?

Josh

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08-29-2007 at 07:14 PM
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Oooh! Oooh! I would be your best friend forever if you could do an architecture tutorial for my thread for your room.

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08-29-2007 at 07:24 PM
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Jacob
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Josh, I'm assuming your first post there was made without noticing my update. In any case, the demo doesn't work for the newest version.
I'd probably agree that the difficulty order is bottom to top, but it could go middle, bottom, top. I didn't want the level to be too linear (every other level lets you pretty much do the rooms in any order), so I didn't place them in order.
So, solved them or not?

goldenferret, although I'd been reading your thread, I've not yet played the hold, so I'll have to have a look.
Only reservations are: (a) I don't remember exactly how I made the room, step-by-step (I could make something up, though) and (b) if I do make a step-by-step guide, it'll spoil the room (and I intend to publish this hold).
Once I've had a look at your hold I'll get back to you.

Edit: Hang on a sec, did you mean the room posted as "Vignette"? In that case, I'm not so concerned about that, sure. Have you solved it?

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[Last edited by Jacob at 08-29-2007 07:47 PM]
08-29-2007 at 07:43 PM
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Chaco
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I've solved all three of the new rooms, and they're much harder now. I liked the lynchpin for 1N2E a lot.

Vignette is also a good room that looks impossible at first but in reality is quite easy if you take the proper steps.

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08-29-2007 at 07:52 PM
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jbluestein
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Jacob wrote:
Josh, I'm assuming your first post there was made without noticing my update. In any case, the demo doesn't work for the newest version.
I'd probably agree that the difficulty order is bottom to top, but it could go middle, bottom, top. I didn't want the level to be too linear (every other level lets you pretty much do the rooms in any order), so I didn't place them in order.
So, solved them or not?

Yes, I missed your update (new page, and I'm dumb). With the update, my old solutions don't work, and I've managed to solve them using what I believe are intended solutions (given how tight the solutions are, it seems much more likely).

I also liked the little room at 1N1E, although it wasn't too complicated.

I assume you're planning on putting something at 1S1E?

Josh


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08-29-2007 at 07:58 PM
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Chaco
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I'd like to complain loudly that I can't figure out why my name is listed in Introduction: Once North.

I'm going to err on the side of you making a mistake rather than you actually taking inspiration from one of my little rooms, and ask which room in the hold could possibly be related to me. I looked at all the rooms and don't see anything similar to any of my published holds.

EDIT:

Just so this post doesn't serve only to embarrass myself and my powers of observation, there's a mistake in the description for Outer Defenses: The Entrance - there's a "choses" where instead there should be a "chooses".

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-29-2007 11:26 PM]
08-29-2007 at 11:24 PM
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Jacob
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Well, first of all I see no need for you to "complain loudly", even if no rooms were inspired by you.
But anyway the entrance to the outer defenses and the entrance to the briar patch are similar to rooms from Chaco's Hold (I can't now remember if I'm referring to the version that went up on holds or the enormous one on architecture, or one from each).
(If you really really want I can hunt for those rooms)
While we're on the topic, why did the one on architecture (with Halls of Muck, Snakes+Ladders etc etc) just disappear and get replaced with the version on holds? It was really good (with a few provisos I already made) and could be released as a hold in its own right.
I can remove your name if you want, but I thought it mean not to refer to the fact. (The Banjooie inspired room is the room similar, but sufficiently different, to his room in Memories, on architecture, whether stepping on a pressure plate fills the room with briar)
Thanks for the typo-catch.

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08-30-2007 at 02:59 PM
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Chaco
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Jacob wrote:
But anyway the entrance to the outer defenses and the entrance to the briar patch are similar to rooms from Chaco's Hold (I can't now remember if I'm referring to the version that went up on holds or the enormous one on architecture, or one from each).

Oh, I know which one you're talking about now. That'd be Chaco's Dungeon Level 6 (the one with the mimics) secret room with all the trapdoors and orthosquares, where there was just the two squares without squares that made it possible. I just figured since you've done many rooms with trapdoors before (Domain of the Grinfidel Sixth Level Twice South Once West, say) this was just something additional with orthosquares and tunnels.

While we're on the topic, why did the one on architecture (with Halls of Muck, Snakes+Ladders etc etc) just disappear and get replaced with the version on holds? It was really good (with a few provisos I already made) and could be released as a hold in its own right.

To be honest, I was in fact planning on releasing those ten levels as a new hold (which would have a significantly lower brain difficulty) but I have to clean it up and remove backtracking issues, as well as remove story, rooms I later used in the published version of Chaco's Hold, etc.

I could go into why exactly I've not gotten around to doing that, but I think that would be going too far off-topic for this thread. Suffice to say I've not forgotten about it.

Thanks for the typo-catch.

You're welcome :)

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08-30-2007 at 03:15 PM
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Chaco
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Alright, I've finally solved all of the Briar Patch. I think that level is the hardest one so far (although I haven't attempted the Finale yet, that's probably harder)

I think the Halls of Variation so far is a much easier level than the Briar Patch, so I think you should probably stick it in between the Flooded Repository and the Briar Patch, even though it uses briars before the actual briar level. It's a nice break from the rather difficult Flooded Repository level, but prepares you with a few techniques to use in the extremely difficult Briar Patch level.

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08-30-2007 at 04:53 PM
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jbluestein
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Chaco wrote:
Alright, I've finally solved all of the Briar Patch. I think that level is the hardest one so far (although I haven't attempted the Finale yet, that's probably harder)

I think the Halls of Variation so far is a much easier level than the Briar Patch, so I think you should probably stick it in between the Flooded Repository and the Briar Patch, even though it uses briars before the actual briar level. It's a nice break from the rather difficult Flooded Repository level, but prepares you with a few techniques to use in the extremely difficult Briar Patch level.

I thought that the Briar Patch was definitely the hardest, harder even than the Finale. (Although the Finale is pretty tough...I've just played through it so many times now that it feels easy to me.)

Josh

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08-30-2007 at 08:52 PM
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Jacob
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I agree. But it's tricky now, because I don't like using the briars before they're introduced in the briar level.
But anyway, the Halls of Variation aren't yet done. They could get harder.

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08-30-2007 at 09:25 PM
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Jacob
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I kind of got bored of thinking about rooms for my Halls of Variation, and came up with a post-mastery level.
Which ended up having a variation on a theme set anyway. I guess that's just how my mind works (basically I keep finding unintended solutions and think: "Hey, that would make a cool room in its own right")

(If it's irritating to have such bitty updates, just let me know)
Thanks

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09-07-2007 at 10:36 PM
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Jason
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Is it purposeful that you can clear The Briar Patch: The Entrance with only one mimic?

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09-08-2007 at 10:09 AM
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jbluestein
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I like the post-master level. I spent a long time wondering how the first room could be possible. Then a long time wondering how the second room could be possible. Fortunately, the third room was pretty easy after the first two.

Problems: Epilogue and the post-master level are not currently linked by staircases (staircase in Inner Defenses: Entrance ends the hold), so I had to play the post-master level in the editor. I believe that this makes 4W unsolvable.

Is it possible that my solution to post-master 1W was unintended? I just:

Click here to view the secret text


Josh


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09-09-2007 at 01:21 PM
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Chaco
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That's the same solution I used, and I was almost positive it was intended, seeing as this is the Cheap Tricks level and using a secret wall like that is a pretty cheap trick :)

4W is also solvable - maybe you haven't investigated everything. Note that obviously you can't step on that conquer token, so you have to open the blue door.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-09-2007 02:10 PM]
09-09-2007 at 02:09 PM
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jbluestein
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Chaco wrote:
That's the same solution I used, and I was almost positive it was intended, seeing as this is the Cheap Tricks level and using a secret wall like that is a pretty cheap trick :)

4W is also solvable - maybe you haven't investigated everything. Note that obviously you can't step on that conquer token, so you have to open the blue door.

Ah, I was thinking about it the wrong way. I wanted to actually clear the room, but of course the point is that you don't want to do that. (The first time I saw 4W, I had already dropped the blue doors.)

Josh

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09-09-2007 at 07:36 PM
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Jacob
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Thanks for the comments. I'll have to change the entrance to the briar patch.
Here are the intended solutions to the post-mastery rooms. I found the 3rd one the hardest, so you may have an unintended solution somewhere.
Click here to view the secret text
Click here to view the secret text
Click here to view the secret text


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09-09-2007 at 08:37 PM
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jbluestein
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Jacob wrote:
Click here to view the secret text

Click here to view the secret text


Josh

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09-09-2007 at 10:57 PM
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Jacob
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Wow, nice unintended solution!
Fixed now (hopefully).
Will finish off Halls of Variation, check everything's ok with 3.1 (unless you guys are already using 3.1??) and submit for publication.

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09-09-2007 at 11:21 PM
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jbluestein
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Jacob wrote:
Wow, nice unintended solution!
Fixed now (hopefully).
Will finish off Halls of Variation, check everything's ok with 3.1 (unless you guys are already using 3.1??) and submit for publication.

I am not using 3.1 myself, but someone else may be...

Josh

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09-10-2007 at 01:49 AM
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BoyBlue
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Flooded Repository 1N1E:
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09-10-2007 at 02:58 AM
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jbluestein
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BoyBlue wrote:
Flooded Repository 1N1E:
Click here to view the secret text

I can confirm that this is possible. Just did it. (Wasn't easy, but...)

Josh

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09-10-2007 at 12:38 PM
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Jacob
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Another nice catch. Can easily fix this with some force arrows/trapdoors to prevent mimic placement on or by the platform.

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09-10-2007 at 12:53 PM
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jbluestein
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Jacob wrote:
Wow, nice unintended solution!
Fixed now (hopefully).
Will finish off Halls of Variation, check everything's ok with 3.1 (unless you guys are already using 3.1??) and submit for publication.

OK, the unintended solution in 3W is now fixed. I didn't find the actual solution that difficult to pull off, but since you did tell me the secret I may not be the best judge.

The new room (5W) is also good. It probably would have taken me a while to get it, except that I was expecting something like this and had been checking for it in every previous room... :)

Josh

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09-10-2007 at 12:56 PM
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Jacob
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Added 2 rooms to Cheap Tricks and 4 rooms to Halls of Variation. As usual, variations should have different solutions, so let me know if they don't. More explicitly:
Click here to view the secret text


I think, barring more mistakes and changes with 3.1, this hold should be complete.

Edit: Will add in acknowledgements for all the playtesters too (currently have missed some out)

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[Last edited by Jacob at 09-12-2007 08:47 PM]
09-12-2007 at 04:55 PM
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jbluestein
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Halls of Variation:

I was able to get 1N1W without too much trouble. I'm having a very difficult time with 1S1W, though. I keep dead-ending myself. 1S1W could definitely do with a checkpoint.

Josh

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09-14-2007 at 11:53 AM
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Jacob
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Hard to know how to give a clue but here's one:
Click here to view the secret text


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09-14-2007 at 12:10 PM
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Jacob wrote:
Hard to know how to give a clue but here's one:
Click here to view the secret text

Moved on already -- now I'm working on 1W. I can confirm that the solutions to 1S1W and 1N1W are sufficiently different. I'm not quite as wild about these rooms, though -- a little more maze-y than I usually like.

[EDIT: And on to 2W. 1W wasn't too tough, but this one is pretty difficult. No progress yet.

Click here to view the secret text

]

Josh

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[Last edited by jbluestein at 09-14-2007 12:47 PM]
09-14-2007 at 12:12 PM
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