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skell
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icon Trapoe (+2)  
Ta-dah! Finally I have finished my first real hold! Actually, making it took me only around... well... 8 hours today, 5 hours yesterday... Around 15 hours perhaps.
Almost all of the levels (excluding one or two) are from my former hold which I never finished (due to lack of puzzle-making skills).

All of the levels should be completable. 98% that they are (you know, I might have accidentally changed something while fixing typos).

Anyway! Trapoe is a small hold. In terms of puzzle rooms, it only has around... 24 rooms (too lazy to count them now). It also features a story which I tried to make humorous but most likely I failed miserably. I'll be grateful for all feedback you can provide.

And last thing - since there is quite some text I thought about adding voices, but I don't know if the file size would be worth it...

Ok, that would be it. I haven't eaten anything since I opened DROD (8 hours ago). Gotta eat. I of course feel like I missed something, but I am afraid there is nothing I can do about it :).

EDIT:
Ok, I updated the hold. A list of changes (biiig):
Click here to view the secret text


Edit2:
Fixed the trapdoors problem in The Cliffs 4E which Chaco mentioned.

Edit3:
Fixed spelling mistakes, added checkpoints where necessary, fixed Laboratory's secret room, and checked everything I could check in my limited time. If anyone is still playing and willing to share some feedback (or want to play) then please tell me, because if not, then quite probably tomorrow's evening I will submit the hold to HA's.
I also carried out a little check, and turns out there is around 4.5MB of speech if I were to add voice acting (I like voices), but considering the small nature of the hold, is it even worth it?

Edit4:
Fixed Ch. 4:1S2W, and Unintended Solution in Ch. 8:1W. Hold Updated

Edit5:
Made it impossible to skip the "Bring me salt, son!" sequence. Typos and other grammar errors fixed. Made it impossible to miss getting the salt.
I think that the hold is pretty much finished. If anyone is still playing it and willing to share the thoughts, or wants to playtest it before I place it into hold-loving arms of HAs, then please write.
Hold file updated.

Edit6: Hold file updated.

Edit7:Hold file once again updated.

Final Edit:
The hold has been uploaded to Holds board.

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[Last edited by skell at 06-14-2009 03:20 PM]
05-06-2009 at 09:30 PM
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skell
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mxvladi wrote:
Is it my browser problem or there's no attachment? :(

It is my browser. It is the second time I attached something and it didn't attach itself :?
Anyway, fixed :).

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05-06-2009 at 09:42 PM
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Blondbeard
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Chapter 4 The Cave 1N1W was a very nice room!
05-07-2009 at 08:07 AM
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Blondbeard
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Hold mastered, and I liked it. Most rooms weren't particularily funny, but they were ok, and I liked the wierd story :) So overall it was quite enjoyable.
05-07-2009 at 12:08 PM
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skell
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Blondbeard wrote:
Hold mastered, and I liked it. Most rooms weren't particularily funny, but they were ok, and I liked the wierd story :) So overall it was quite enjoyable.

Glad it was :). I have an idea which rooms might have been least funny and I will tinker with them in spare time.

Oh, and that Cave room you mentioned is a result of unintended solution of its predecessor, which I decided was more fun than original idea. Unless of course you found u.sol. for it by
Click here to view the secret text

which I really hard tried to make impossible but might have failed.

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05-08-2009 at 12:24 AM
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Chaco
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Here's my notes for this hold:

Click here to view the secret text


===

Overall, this is a short, but very nicely done hold. I think it could use some more polish in places, particularly in dialogue and in player convenience, but this looks really good. :)

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05-08-2009 at 12:47 AM
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skell
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Chaco wrote:
Overall, this is a short, but very nicely done hold. I think it could use some more polish in places, particularly in dialogue and in player convenience, but this looks really good. :)

Thank you very much :). I am really grateful for your input!
I fixed/changed most of the stuff you pointed. I wanted to fill Fields of Green more, but I suffered from complete lack of ideas. Will work on it, though. The Blue Doors in The Cliff shouldn't have been the sister ones.
Oh and in the Cave, it is impossible to follow the southern part. There are three one-tile wide corridors in upper half of trapdoors, which makes it impossible to return.

As for The Lake 2N1E. After reading your post I realized didn't test this room after removing surrounding walls and putting seldom obstacles and it might have been impossible. :weep Glad it wasn't though.

Anyway, thanks again. I will surely give it a bit more polish in days to come.

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05-08-2009 at 02:35 PM
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Insane
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Haven't played much but I'd love more checkpoints. Having to re-do parts over and over again was annoying.

I'll give examples later.
05-10-2009 at 12:37 AM
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skell
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Insane wrote:
Haven't played much but I'd love more checkpoints. Having to re-do parts over and over again was annoying.

I'll give examples later.

Wait until tomorrow if you want, because post an update then. Just have to fix a couple of other small things and test if some added levels are possible.
Nevertheless, feedback and constructive criticism is always welcome.

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05-10-2009 at 01:06 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Trapoe (Updated) (+1)  
Just about everything looks good, but I'd like to mention that by adding trapdoors to Chapter 5 Quarce East, you've made the room impossible, since all trapdoors have to be dropped to leave the room. :P

(Also, just for aesthetics, could you attach the bridge in 3E to something so it doesn't drop on the first turn? Makes it look like shoddy architecture, and Beethro's mom wouldn't put up with those kinds of shenanigans.)

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05-10-2009 at 02:21 PM
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skell
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Both fixed and updated hold in first post, thanks :)

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05-10-2009 at 02:36 PM
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deftriver
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icon Re: Trapoe (Final? Update) (+1)  
Chapter 4 1S2W, is it possible to drop all the trapdoor on the top? I see people who say they've mastered the hold, I just can't see how.

Also, Chapter 8 1W has a really trivial solution, that is more obvious that the intended solution.

[Last edited by deftriver at 05-11-2009 03:55 PM]
05-11-2009 at 03:37 PM
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skell
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deftriver wrote:
Chapter 4 1S2W, is it possible to drop all the trapdoor on the top? I see people who say they've mastered the hold, I just can't see how.

Also, Chapter 8 1W has a really trivial solution, that is more obvious that the intended solution.
It is now, I must have accidently removed one trapdoor at some point. Thanks for noticing that.
And thanks for noting that unintended solution. Originally there was trapdoor path to it and of course I failed to notice its obviousity.
Nevertheless, hold updated in first post.

Edit:
Oh yeah, could some native English speaker take a look at the hold's text? I would be indebted! I looked through it twice and I think I haven't missed any obvious mistakes but well... Knowing me there are tons of noticeable-at-first-glance errors.
Thanks Insane!

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[Last edited by skell at 05-13-2009 11:17 PM]
05-11-2009 at 05:03 PM
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Insane
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I'll try my best.
I'm not that good of an English speaker myself, but I'll tell you everything that I think sounds.. *weird*, even if it might be correct.

Click here to view the secret text


Oh and another bit of advice, right at the start of the hold:
Click here to view the secret text

05-11-2009 at 10:40 PM
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skell
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Thanks Insane. I fixed most of the typos (I can't believe I missed blowed or infamouse), and the other thing you mentioned.
I think the hold is finally finished. If anyone is still playtesting it then please write, or else I can submit it before you post the results, and that would make both me and you feel bad.

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05-13-2009 at 05:08 PM
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Chaco
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I'm currently playing through the hold again from start to finish. I'll post some more commentary when I'm done. Suffice to say I think you should wait before you submit to the HAs.

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05-13-2009 at 10:32 PM
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Jacob
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I also think there are probably some issues that need to be addressed before submitting and will also post some comments.

I'll try to include some English corrections too.

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05-13-2009 at 11:11 PM
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deftriver
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Yeah, don't submit if you aren't sure about typos. Also, I know I'm not the best but there are three rooms that I've been unable to solve (two on the fourth, with the rock golems, and the limited movement room to the north and on the eight the room to the south)

Since you access the next level from the original level you can not complete level four and still go to level five. (I could be wrong about this but I think I did this) I just don't like having required rooms that you don't have to complete.

Also the SW corner room on 4, why have a path leading away with nothing there? I know you can't get to that path anyway but why isn't there an NPC or something that could explain the path?


[Last edited by deftriver at 05-13-2009 11:46 PM]
05-13-2009 at 11:34 PM
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Chaco
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File: trapoe_notes_Chaco.txt (2.2 KB)
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Okay, attached are my notes for the hold. They have some English corrections and a few notes about room points, but they're all pretty quick fixes.

I can testify that the hold is conquerable and masterable from start to finish in its current state, although some of the rooms are harder than they once were (particularly that rock golem room in the caves).

I recommend you fix these few things before you submit the hold to the HAs.

skell wrote:
And last thing - since there is quite some text I thought about adding voices, but I don't know if the file size would be worth it...

Are you still thinking about doing this once the hold is puzzle-complete? I could potentially volunteer.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-14-2009 12:15 AM]
05-14-2009 at 12:14 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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I'm sorry I don't have time to write more extensive comments right now, but this hold isn't finished yet. The story I've seen so far is fun though. :)

I don't think the levels are connected in the way you intend.

There's a warp room in the Dungeon Cellar that looks like it's there for testing purposes.
I visited the puzzle levels in this order:
Chapter 1: Dungeon Cellar
Chapter 2: Control Room
Chapter 3: Fields of Green
I couldn't find a passage to another level in the northwest corner of Fields of Green, so I got on the sailboat, which took me to
Chapter 6: The Broad Lake (in 1N1E, you can step on the first disarm token twice)
Chapter 7: Secret Laboratory

I see from the warp room that I managed to skip Chapters 4 and 5. I still managed to master the hold, but the stairs behind the master wall end the hold instead of taking me to Chapter 8.

If you care about the hold text being grammatically correct, there are still corrections to be made. It would be easiest to help you with the text if you would export it and post the file here. (Set ExportText=1 in your drod.ini, and it will give you the option to export the text when you export the hold.)
05-14-2009 at 11:22 AM
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skell
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two on the fourth, with the rock golems, and the limited movement room to the north and on the eight the room to the south
I checked and all of these are possible (although you need a lot of luck and patience to finish Master 1S without UU)
Since you access the next level from the original level you can not complete level four and still go to level five. (I could be wrong about this but I think I did this) I just don't like having required rooms that you don't have to complete.
You have to complete every room in Ch. 4, because Mom's statue is hidden behind Blue Door. You DID enter Ch. 5 before 4, because of small mistake on my side (more below on that)
Also the SW corner room on 4, why have a path leading away with nothing there?
The path is no more, and Beethro now comments about the hut when you conquer this room. I just noticed you can get stuck when trying to go through the trapdoors the second time (Fixed it, but not in the updated file).

Okay, attached are my notes for the hold.
Fixed all of them (excepting warp room which I will remove after the hold is completely finished). Thanks.

I don't think the levels are connected in the way you intend.
I am not sure how I did it, but when trying to enter Cliffs and Lake there is a wait for var which tests how far you are in the plot, and I somehow forgot to update the variables with proper numbers. I fixed it now, and you have to do them in the proper order now.

I couldn't find a passage to another level in the northwest corner of Fields of Green
As usual, I mixed West with East. It obviously should be northeast corner (which it is now), and I made the cave's entrance more obvious.

And I fixed the stairs behind the master wall too, now they lead to the master level (I clearly remember changing that at the very beginning, but it seems I didn't after all).
Voices - once the hold is completely finished, then sure.

I am attaching hold text to the post, any help on that will be greatly appreciated :). File in the first post updated.

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05-14-2009 at 04:14 PM
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I've just been told to go check out the lake and it then I say Mom wouldn't like it.
05-16-2009 at 04:29 AM
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skell
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deftriver wrote:
I've just been told to go check out the lake and it then I say Mom wouldn't like it.

Fixed and hold in first post updated.

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05-16-2009 at 05:01 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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Nice story with an interesting twist. :)

I've been through the hold text once. Maybe one more person could look through it just in case I've missed something. I don't recall seeing all this text when I played the hold. Maybe some remaining scripting problems too.

Oh, and I wouldn't call this a "minimalistic" hold. It's got a full story, decorations, little scripted details, rooms full of monsters. You could say it's a "short" hold if you want.
05-16-2009 at 08:51 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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I've played through the hold properly, without using the warp room. I tried pretty hard to go to levels I wasn't supposed to go to, and couldn't do it this time.

There is one backtracking problem in the hold that needs to be fixed. In Chapter 5 4E, if Beethro doesn't happen to step on (15,27) when solving the room, he doesn't decide to go talk to Mom. After he's conquered the room, he can't come back and step on that square during a second visit because of the green sister door. It's then necessary to restore in order to progress in the hold.

The rest of this is just comments and suggestions.

General points of architectural style:
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Comments on puzzles:
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05-17-2009 at 09:12 AM
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bdwing
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Excellent hold.

I mastered the hold after finally solving some fiendish puzzles, but the stairs in Dungeon Once West ended the hold instead of taking me to level 8.

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05-25-2009 at 11:45 AM
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skell
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It took a moment to do, but I did some changes (conveniently, I lost the changes list) but I checked all of the things CuriousShyRabbit mentioned. I fixed all the 'edge of the room' problems, although I couldn't reproduce the Chapter 0 1N1W. These were of course unintentional, I was to check them at some point but unfortunately I forgot.
I added the checkpoints (I was sure I did it back at the beginning but it seems not).
Chapter 2: Added brains to entrance, changed the 1W.
Chapter 3: Replaced 2E with different puzzle, but I guess that one ain't much better;
Chapter 4: 1N1W removed unintended solution; 1S changed it and added slight variety; 1S1W replaced 4 adders with rattlesnakes; 1S2W made the top half more difficult;
Chapter 5:Blocked top; 4E removed (hopefully) backtracking problem;
Chapter 6: 1E I failed at making a smaller and easier version of this level which still would retain some proper level of challenge;

I also changed the speeches according to your fixes, fixed Master stairs aaaand...
...that's almost all of it I guess. I have to reupload the hold in the first post now.
Thank you very very much! (All it's missing now is Credits)

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05-25-2009 at 01:01 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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I've replayed this hold. It looks much better! No more backtracking problem, missing checkpoints, or uncovered room edges.

You've done a good job breaking the fourfold symmetry in rooms that were repetitive because of that property, without sacrificing aesthetics. :)

I'm a little puzzled by the change in Chapter 4 1N1W. The former "unintended solution" was challenging and interesting, and the goblin forced me to go all the way north before turning around. The changed version is much easier. I can now kill that goblin at the beginning, and direct a rattler in with a golem by waiting at the south side of the room.

A couple final typos I found.
* In Chapter 8, in the scroll talking about how difficult 1S is, I think you meant to compare it to Chapter 6 1E and not Chapter 7 1E.
* The last sentence in the end of hold text is "I hope you enjoyed this relatively hold." Did you leave out "short" or "small"?
05-27-2009 at 11:08 AM
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skell
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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
I'm a little puzzled by the change in Chapter 4 1N1W. The former "unintended solution" was challenging and interesting[...]
Well, I personally liked this (the one there is now) solution better, but you think I should make it as it was before and remove the current solution?

I will fix the typos and upload next version sometime later.

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05-27-2009 at 11:23 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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No, either one is fine, I'm just a little surprised is all.

The former US did involve heavy use of snake and goblin movement rules. That made it more interesting, but I understand if you don't want that in your hold. Some players don't like snake manipulation puzzles.
05-27-2009 at 11:32 AM
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