Rheb
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1211
Registered: 08-04-2006
IP: Logged

Ok, the save option is brilliant. It would greatly improve the experience of playing the horde of holds with way too few checkpoints.

Do that!

Edit: from bwross post

____________________________
Voligner is my very own DROD-like game. Please check it out!

---

[Last edited by Rheb at 10-02-2012 04:36 PM]

west.logan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 608
Registered: 03-09-2011
IP: Logged

Previous post. I guess part of me thinks unlimited would be cheap. Of course, I would have the choice not to use it so I'm really fine either way.

I think I'm also still relieved to have one undo, coming from Architect's Edition like I did

____________________________
-Logan

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1064
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

On one hand, Unlimited Undo feels a bit overkill. If you need to go back more than five moves, you're probably better off resetting. On the other hand, even good holds are ruined* by checkpoint starvation. Let me throw down a portable checkpoint or three so I don't have to repeat the same section 30 times before finishing the room.

*May contain exaggeration

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

slimm tom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1228
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

I'm certainly not against UU, but these 'portable checkpoints' do sound somewhat better. As outlined on the previous page, it requires some thought where to place your checkpoint, and I don't think that's a bad thing. If that's too much work though developer-wise, I'd rather see more content being made instead, and UU being enabled.

Please make it optional though, that seems nice.

Red-XIII
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 623
Registered: 08-05-2012
IP: Logged

Personally with UU I found some rooms easier than others because you can go back until you realize the mistake and then fix it, so even if the trick in a room is hard with UU you can "avoid" that. I'm not saying that 1 Undo is good but maybe we should find a solution that satisfies all of us; the best one I saw ( don't remember who said that) was to put in the settings the choice, 1 undo, 3/5 undo and unlimited undo, so everyone can play as he/she wants.

____________________________
There's not some other world out there where everything's gonna be okay.
There's just this one, just this rock.
-33th Skywatcher

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

bwross wrote:
In short, I think it's bad idea, and too much power to solve the problems it addresses. FFFing can be handled with 3 move undo well enough, and allowing the user the option to save where there isn't a checkpoint (with a limit of one save point per room) handles bad checkpoint placement more than adequately. There's no need for the silliness and freedom from having to think that comes with UU.

I think this is an excellent compromise from someone whose thinking on this issue seems to mirror my own.

Would not "add a droppable save point and 3-move undo" be good enough for those of you who want more control?

Please?

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

xitvono
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 55
Registered: 09-15-2012
IP: Logged

I don't think it makes much sense to have a droppable save point. It would make more sense to simply have the player press a button to save the game which can be done at any time.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

My challenge to Trickster and other opponents of UU: Find us one or more rooms which aren't just a terrible boring tree search of possible move combinations (note that orb puzzles count as this), which is fun only without the introduction of UU.

bwross wrote: Besides, the existence of anyone being able to play with UU means that people that opt out will still need to deal with puzzles that are built with UU available. I already hate the "search tree" efficiency problems we currently have... where things are so tight with so many monsters interacting that there is only one path and part of the solution ends up being "try each move from this position and undo it until you get something you like, repeat from the new position" (because working out all the monster interactions would be an insane task).

I guess it's possible. Has there been an uptick in tar blanketing everything now that we have translucent tar in the standard graphics? Also, twofold question:
* If you aren't an optimizer, why would you play a hold with these terrible rooms?
* If you are, I can see why you'd play terrible rooms, but what does UU change in this case?

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

Moo
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 224
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

Droppable/placeable checkpoints would have the advantage of being able to see where you saved. You'd be able to revisit them again to save again in the same place, just like normal checkpoints.
If you had a limited supply, you'd need to use your judgement as to where they should best be placed. You'd still be able to use the normal checkpoints too.
I feel this would be a good compromise, easing repetition and giving control to the player, without making brute-forcing or optimization too much easier. Maybe combine with 3-move undo à la Flash DROD, which seems to work well.

As for not making sense, well, if you mean in game-world terms, neither do normal checkpoints
Instead of my previous suggestion of having to restart the room to move them, how about any "temporary" checkpoints you placed since your last "regular" checkpoint save being removed when restoring to that point? That would mean you could recover from accidental placing etc easily enough.

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3407
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

I'm all for having unlimited undo. I don't really see advance planning at the level of detail that UU would affect as part of the "mission statement" of DROD, which makes the current system just get in the way unnecessarily. Basically, this would put less of a barrier between the player and the Good Stuff.

I think RuAdam took the opposite philosophy in parts of Under the Mountain, in which he/she/they/it wouldn't put checkpoints inside some puzzles on the basis of wanting the player to figure them out beforehand. While I understand the sentiment, I'm comfortable lumping it in with hiding walls under tarstuff as "stuff removed from the architect's purview".

And taking the undo idea all the way in the other direction, I lovedlovedloved the bar puzzles in which one had to preprogram all Beethro's moves from the beginning. Moar plz!

____________________________

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1304
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

Dischorran wrote:
And taking the undo idea all the way in the other direction, I lovedlovedloved the bar puzzles in which one had to preprogram all Beethro's moves from the beginning. Moar plz!

Okay, I'll see if I can't script it...

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

I would like to say that I am all for having portable checkpoint(s) even if we do get UU. This is because if there is a particular point to which one would like to restore often while trying to solve or optimize a section of a puzzle - as so often happens, especially in efficiency puzzles - I think it would be much nicer to be able to restore back to that point with a single keypress (or a few, if there were checkpoints after the portable one).

If we do get UU, though, I think we should be limited to one portable checkpoint at a time, as it's less to keep track of and one can always reposition the checkpoint with UU.

I don't think portable checkpoints should be a potion or anything like that. That just gives the architect something else to forget to place and/or be a jerk about.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

The Architest
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 254
Registered: 05-25-2008
IP: Logged

Sure, why not. UU would be useful, and it doesn't make any rooms worse; it just saves me the money spent on replacing broken keyboards.

bomber50
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 872
Registered: 09-18-2006
IP: Logged

I have no problems with UU, but I think that it would be better if we just emphasized the need for sufficient checkpoints in locations the player is actually going to pass.

west.logan
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 608
Registered: 03-09-2011
IP: Logged

Someone Else alluded to this, but one problem with unlimited undo is in optimizing. Fighting a horde and think you could have done one move better 15 moves ago? Back up, go forward, back up, go forward, etc.

Is this bad? Not necessarily, but it really has potential to "break" lots of old records by using tools not available to the original record-makers, who might not even be around. It really could be a game changer for people going for scores.

Just something that could perhaps use a little more than a passing remark in this thread?

____________________________
-Logan

xitvono
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 55
Registered: 09-15-2012
IP: Logged

If you're an optimizer, then you have probably already beaten the hold and likely have the ability to edit the hold to add more checkpoints or to play in the editor with UU.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

I believe the truly dedicated top-scoring optimizers do tend to play with UU in the editor. There exist tools to extract a move string from a demo, and I wouldn't be surprised if there exist tools to turn move strings into playing a room. However, architects have the option to limit editing to Only You; this is standard practice on official holds, though for everyone else it's considered kind of rude.

As for easy breaking of records - if anything, I believe that one of the arguments for UU applies to optimization as well as normal gameplay - that UU allows the player to get right to the good stuff. The core of optimizing is to find an optimal solution, not to have the most time to spend obsessively working around the lack of UU. So I don't think it's a problem with UU, but an advantage of it.

Consider also that the optimizing game is pretty dead so arguments to keep it the way it is should be scrutinized closely.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5058
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

This is a great discussion. So far, it seems like everyone is on board with us providing at least 3-move undo, and most people think UU is also good as an option. Also, most people like the idea of having a portable checkpoint to place somewhere in the room during play.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 10-10-2012 12:14 AM]

Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged

Idea off the top of my head (not sure if it's been mentioned before).

There's an option to toggle UU in settings.
If it's selected, scores cannot be submitted for rooms completed using UU.
(i.e. there's some sort of flag generated if a demo is made with UU ON, and this flag prevents the demo being submitted for highscoring).

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged

Jacob wrote:
scores cannot be submitted for rooms completed using UU.
(i.e. there's some sort of flag generated if a demo is made with UU ON, and this flag prevents the demo being submitted for highscoring).

All this does is put optimizers to the trouble of replaying their demo move for move once they've found a solution they're satisfied with. There's simply no way to enforce a rule that rooms must be completed without UU.

Edit: Still waiting for someone to fulfill my challenge posted above. I can put it in the [challenge] format if needed?

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator

---

[Last edited by Jatopian at 10-10-2012 10:37 AM]

mxvladi
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2505
Registered: 02-11-2008
IP: Logged

(I'll note that I didn't read all of the posts above, so I may be repeating someone, but I want to share my opinion anyway)

Unlimited undo seems like overkill to me. Undoing 3-5 moves is usually more than enough to fix silly mistakes player might make when playing the room. If 3-5 move undo is going to be implemented, I'm all for it. I don't see why anyone would need more than that(if you've screwed up so much that 3-5 move undo won't help, well, restore to the latest checkpoint, then!).

I've noticed that some people mentioned that optimizers can optimize stuff in editor(which provides unlim.undo), but this is not the same as having unlimited undo in-game. Since editor doesn't save demos, optimizer will have to repeat his perfect, optimal solution move-by-move, and this is boring as hell (IMO). If he's willing to waste his time on it, why not? Unlimited undo in-game would make the optimizing process slightly, slightly faster. It especially applies to roach-horde rooms and stuff like that.

---

[Last edited by mxvladi at 10-10-2012 04:16 PM]

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

Jatopian wrote:
There's simply no way to enforce a rule that rooms must be completed without UU.

This is an extremely silly straw man. There has never been a way to 'enforce a rule against UU', nor has anyone on the forum ever requested such a thing. If you want to get that literal, UU already exists because you can restart the room an unlimited number of times and write down your moves on a pad of paper.

If the functional results of UU were actually as easy to implement by yourself as you suggest, you wouldn't be arguing so vociferously for adding it, because you wouldn't need it to be implemented at all. The fact that there are certain people who ask time and again for UU is evidence that leaving it out makes DROD a different game (for better or worse).

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

mxvladi wrote:
(I'll note that I didn't read all of the posts above, so I may be repeating someone, but I want to share my opinion anyway)

Unlimited undo seems like overkill to me. Undoing 3-5 moves is usually more than enough to fix silly mistakes player might make when playing the room. If 3-5 move undo is going to be implemented, I'm all for it. I don't see why anyone would need more than that(if you've screwed up so much that 3-5 move undo won't help, well, restore to the latest checkpoint, then!).

I've noticed that some people mentioned that optimizers can optimize stuff in editor(which provides unlim.undo), but this is not the same as having unlimited undo in-game. Since editor doesn't save demos, optimizer will have to repeat his perfect, optimal solution move-by-move, and this is boring as hell (IMO). If he's willing to waste his time on it, why not? Unlimited undo in-game would make the optimizing process slightly, slightly faster. It especially applies to roach-horde rooms and stuff like that.

THIS.

Moreover, if you have to make a change to DROD, why make it the most sweeping change possible?

Let me see if I can counter-argue here. Jatopian has been making a lot of arguments about optimizers, but unless I'm mis-remembering, he's the guy who claimed in a recent thread that he "wasn't an optimizer" himself. Well, mxvladi and I are optimizers, and I have something to say here that may have been missed.

UU removes part of the joy from optimizing. When I first play a room, I try to optimize it the first time if I can. This means skipping checkpoints (for faster paths) and taking risks. It means there is heightened tension. If I box myself in, I'm SCREWED. That makes my adrenaline pump. You don't get that if you have unlimited undo of mistakes.

I play roguelikes. These are games where if you die, you are dead. No restarts. That's what makes them fun. And half the fun of DROD rooms is the fact that when I play, I have to choose between optimal path and taking a huge risk on death, vs. sub-optimal path to hit a check point. I absolutely love that. It makes the game exciting even when a room is as boring as grass.

Yes, I realize putting an option in for the player could allow me to "turn off UU" but I know eventually I'd use it somewhere and lose something I used to really enjoy. I also want the option to make rooms that are hard so other players can experience the tension that I enjoy. If they don't like it, they don't have to play my holds (it's not like there aren't hundreds more to choose from). So I'd much prefer something like UU, if it be allowed in at all, be left in the hands of the architect.

Although I think 1-move undo is good enough as it is, admittedly. It certainly makes stuff (tar, mud, and gel) exciting to fight in, and teaches you to recognize how it will grow, whereas a 2-move undo would totally remove that element of stuff-growth danger.

I don't think it's just me, but maybe it is. I think taking a poll of regular players would give a better measure of what people consider "acceptable", "ideal", and "unacceptable" than asking on a thread. Some forum members miss threads, others won't post on them because they don't like dealing with the interpersonal issues that arise, and others are just more vocal proponents for their side of things (myself included, if I actually had the time to monitor things at the moment). A poll would reach a larger segment of interested drodiots, particularly if it were highlighted in the newsletter. Just a thought.

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2460
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

This is what I said the last time we had this discussion. My opinion is pretty much the same - mostly indifferent.
(somewhat surprisingly, I thought I would have had stronger feelings back when I was in the optimising game)

Rabscuttle wrote:
I feel obligated to throw in my two greckles, but on the whole I'm pretty ambivalent about it, so I probably changed my mind a few times in the middle of writing the below. Umm. yeah.

--

I agree that UU shouldn't be necessary for ordinary solving of rooms - if it is required then it means the architect didn't include enough checkpoints in appropriate places. As far as gaining high scores go, if it's a standard thing then I don't know whether anyone would be necessarily worse off. I certainly don't believe that it will turn everyone into superoptimisers - solving a room efficiently is too complex a task to do by trying every combination of moves. Improvements are often found by solving the room using a different approach, small changes near the start that only have a noticable effect much later (michthro already mentioned Dusty Dungeon:L1:1N2E), or simple manoeuvres that UU isn't going to help you see (e.g. KDD2:L19:1S1E - spot the difference between my and michthro's demos). I don't think any of these would be made easier to do with the addition of UU. That's not to say UU doesn't have its uses in optimisation - it is very useful when you are facing a horde of monsters - ideally you want to kill one per turn while at the same time you generally want to retreat or advance as far as possible. As monster movement order is largely opaque, finding a good sequence of moves is largely a matter of trial and error and UU can help with that (although I'd probably prefer some kind of indication of relative move order)

So should we have it? I've been doing fine without it so far, although admittedly I have made use of the editor once or twice (mainly to add checkpoints). I did try out michthro's mod on a couple of rooms (namely Fun Park: 1N2E - where it was very useful - and 1N2W - where I probably didn't need it.) It does have the advantage over the editor of being able to combine restore and undo, as well as saving demos. But I'm not using because a) tisn't fair and I don't really need it, b) no idea if it'll work after the next patch, and I don't want to become crutched by it, c) um.. I forget what c was.

eytanz wrote: You can also just watch the #1 demo and replay it if all you are interested is in short-cutting the stage where you try to figure out how to optimize. Plus, it's harder than it sounds to play a room without mistakes, at least for the rooms that need more than a couple of hundred moves.

Speaking from experience, for most rooms it's not that hard. You generally only need to remember a series of things to do - 'enter facing N, hit this orb, wiggle as you run N to line up the roaches, run them through then kill that queen, etc' Also, I'm fairly sure that someone wrote a program that prints out the moves of a demo.

Zch
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 503
Registered: 05-15-2007
IP: Logged

My thoughts about the issue (All this ha probably been said a million times already...):

I think when playing DROD the player is supposed to stop and think before acting. So no undo would be best. But that's way too punishing as one wrong keypress can destroy your whole progress on that room. So It's a good thing there's one undo to counter wrong keypresses and momentary stupidity and whatnot.

Also, many rooms have several smaller puzzles, that can and should be solved separately ("How can I manipulate that goblin to there", "how do I cut this tar", "how do I get that adder to eat these roaches" etc. etc. etc.) Now, if every time you fail at one of these minipuzzles, you need to solve all previous ones again, it quickly becomes tedious and boring. This problem is solved by checkpoints.

I think undo and checkpoints are two separate things solving two different problems. And I think they both do their job quite well.

There's of course the problem that architects forget to put checkpoints in their holds, and I don't really know what can be done about that. I don't really like the suggested portable-checkpoint solution. It feels like moving the architects job to the player.

I don't like the idea of unlimited undo either.
I think it would encourage rapidly trying random stuff instead of thinking and planning ahead. The player would get results in easier rooms, but then get stuck in harder ones. Kinda like when fighting games are badly designed and button mashing is great tactic, until all the sudden, difficulty rises a bit, and you should know how to block and counterattack properly.
Unlimited undo would make Drod more frustrating to play, not less. That's what I think anyway.

3 or 5 undos could work, but I don't really feel the need for tuning the undo system at all. Just stop and think for a while before you attack.

And yes I know, some rooms are really difficult, I'm not very good player myself. I get stuck a lot, get angry and frustrated or just give up. But It has never felt that more undos would help me at all. What I have noticed is that when testing holds in editor, my playing tends to get sloppier and that causes problems when I try to play properly again.

---

[Last edited by Zch at 10-12-2012 12:07 PM]

Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
IP: Logged

Zch wrote:
What I have noticed is that when testing holds in editor, my playing tends to get sloppier and that causes problems when I try to play properly again.

This is so true!

I actually wish there were a way to test in the editor with UU turned off. (This is the main reason I occasionally forget to add checkpoints to a room during development.)

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

Zch
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 503
Registered: 05-15-2007
IP: Logged

Trickster wrote:
I actually wish there were a way to test in the editor with UU turned off.

That's a good idea. Also, it would be funny if disabling UU in the editor would be implemented because of request for enabling UU in the game

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

Trickster wrote:

UU removes part of the joy from optimizing. When I first play a room, I try to optimize it the first time if I can. This means skipping checkpoints (for faster paths) and taking risks. It means there is heightened tension. If I box myself in, I'm SCREWED. That makes my adrenaline pump. You don't get that if you have unlimited undo of mistakes.
...
Yes, I realize putting an option in for the player could allow me to "turn off UU" but I know eventually I'd use it somewhere and lose something I used to really enjoy.

When I play solitaire, I flip one card at a time (instead of 3) and go through the deck as many times as I want (instead of limiting myself to 1 time) until I'm completely stuck or I clear the board. One of my friends in high school saw me doing this at lunch one day and accused me of cheating. But it's SOLITAIRE. There's no winner, no loser, no money or trophies or titles to be won. It's a way to waste time that's more fun than staring at the wall. The way I play doesn't force my friend to play differently. Even if he now realizes that he could turn one card instead of three the next time he plays, feels compelled to do so and then has less fun playing solitaire because of that choice, why should _I_ stop playing solitaire the way I want to?

DROD is solitaire. It's you vs the game, not you vs me. Adding an extra mode of play doesn't stop you from playing it in the mode that you like. It doesn't force you to give in to the dark side and do what other people are doing. Giving UU to the people who think they would benefit from it (ie have more fun due to less frustration) doesn't make you use it or ruin your experience. Unless YOU LET IT. The devs aren't taking away your fun or your mode of play. They're adding fun for someone else. If that reduces your enjoyment, then the problem is with you, not with the feature that was added, the people who requested or use that feature or the devs who implemented it.

Now, I don't really care one way or the other whether UU gets implemented. I love DROD now without it, and I'll love DROD tomorrow with it. I may dabble around with UU and see if it enhances my enjoyment or not. If not, I'll shrug my shoulders and go back to not using it. Whatever gets changed in the next version, I'll find a way to optimize my enjoyment of DROD because it's a great game. You should too.

So to sum up: I don't care whether we have UU or not. But I definitely don't want to see this debate hinge on whether a small group of people will be tempted against their will to use something that they don't have to use if they had a little more will power.

Were I the arbiter of such decisions (and I'm not), the only way I would decide against UU is if one of the following was demonstrated:
1. Implementation Issues: It was difficult to impossible to implement or implementing it would mean skimping on much cooler stuff.
2. UU would make it absolutely impossible for people who currently play DROD to continue to play in the way that they are used to. (I'd be tempted to sin doesn't count)
3. UU would cause image problems for the game - ie new people will abandon the game because UU has somehow made it trivial or unplayable in some other way. Since we're potentially adding UU to make the game more playable for newcomers, making it less playable would countermand the whole point.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1064
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Zch wrote:
I don't really like the suggested portable-checkpoint solution. It feels like moving the architects job to the player.

[monotone]Oh no a player can save a potentially fun room from a fundamental design flaw how terrible.[/monotone]

Except that it's not terrible. There are plenty of rooms out there that lack checkpoints, or have checkpoints in bad places. However, some of these rooms are perfectly good multistage puzzles, but are tedious due to having to repeat early parts of the room many times. And in case it's not obvious, tedium is never a fun thing. So give people their green/blue/not-red portable checkpoints, because it's pretty much the only way to fix certain rooms from being terrible.

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1304
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

hyperme wrote: And in case it's not obvious, tedium is never a fun thing. So give people their green/blue/not-red portable checkpoints, because it's pretty much the only way to fix certain rooms from being terrible.

Blue. Blue would be better. I might only be saying this because I'm colourblind. Either way, blue.