13th Slayer
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What do you think?

Someone Else
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No, no, and no. This has been discussed before in length.

NiroZ
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I think that a 6 page discussion is enough thinking on the subject.

Welcome to the forums by the way.

Jatopian
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I agree. Unfortunately, the sizable faction in favor of UU seems to be overruled by an even more sizable faction of shortsighted high-scorers who are afraid of tree search methodology. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

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Someone Else
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It takes the puzzle out of large monster rooms, such as 1S in level 7 of KDD. Not that I want to spark any arguments here, but Jatopian seemed to be bitter, and I wanted to have my side represented here as well.

Mattcrampy
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I was going to post my understanding of the argument again, but honestly there's nothing to be gained from it. There's good arguments for both sides, but it's the development team's decision to go the way they did. (Kind of like the argument for a return of the timed mode from the Webfoot game.)

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silver
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...or the dev's decision to pretend that transparent tar is a feature of the vision token and not something they should just make a button for, when a sizable percentage of people just use a transparent tar mod and ignore the token (except when it helps with eye rooms)



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[Last edited by silver at 10-02-2007 07:38 AM]

Sillyman
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My argument for the Timed Mode being brought back was for stuff like suggesting setting it to 1 millisecond for scripted features, anyway.

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Mattcrampy
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silver wrote:
...or the dev's decision to pretend that transparent tar is a feature of the vision token and not something they should just make a button for, when a sizable percentage of people just use a transparent tar mod and ignore the token (except when it helps with eye rooms)

Geez, silver, you're grumpy today.

And your implication that the dev team - by which I mean Mike - is ignorant of the 'obvious' superiority of tar mods, and moreover that they're just downright ignorant of the way things should be done according to silver, is insulting.

People should not get so worked up over these things. It really doesn't matter whether you can see walls under tar all the time or go back two moves or be forced to wait every ten seconds or pour ketchup over kittens as well as puppies or whatever. These are really trivial things, and the only people they affect are those people who get on forums to argue about minutiae.

So, uh, I guess we're both grumpy today?

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Sillyman
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Matt... Next time when you're grumpy, read your sig. It should help you keep from seeming grumpy.

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silver
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I wasn't posting it to be grumpy or to insult. It was just another example of a decision that could go either way and the dev team chose one way. You may choose to read insult into it, but I didn't actually write any -- it was just tongue in cheek.



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[Last edited by silver at 10-02-2007 04:50 PM]

eb0ny
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Okay, here goes my opinion...

UU is a cheat. And DROD is cheat-free (game's greatest feature). So why should dev team implement a cheat into a cheat-free game? Playing with and without cheats separates the best from the rest.

There.

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Kevin_P86
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NiroZ wrote:
I think that a 6 page discussion is enough thinking on the subject.

I don't think this needs to turn into a discussion on the pros and cons of unlimited undo. It has already been covered thoroughly...

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Red-XIII
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It looks like this is the "latest" topic I found on the undo argument. Basing on what I read many people some years ago thought (and maybe think now too) that the undo button can be used for only 1 move; others think that unlimited is better. In my opinion no one of these options is "fair". My opinion is that unlimited undo moves makes things really easier, I test my rooms in the editor with this and it's pretty simple to clear the rooms; 1 is good for puzzle rooms since you have to think a lot but when there are horde of monsters and the keypad of the pc (like mine) is pretty small it's easier to make silly mistakes and restarting the room from the beginning or from the checkpoint that in some rooms are in wrong place (sadly in my hold too). Anyway I think that 3 undo moves might be a good solution, what do you think about it?

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Trickster
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First time poking on the forum in a while since I'm totally inundated with RL crap.

I can't believe I haven't heard anyone suggest the following, but here's my suggestion (even though I hate UU):

When you make 5.0, make it so every room in a hold has its own undo limit, which the architect alone can set. Anything from 1 (the default) to 5, or unlimited (the latter which deletes all checkpoints). You might even want to allow 0 for special case rooms where undo shouldn't occur at all.

This way, if you want to play UU, you do it with holds for which it was DESIGNED. You don't just go totally changing the game for 200 already-published holds. That's just dumb, and I don't think many people want to see that happen.

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[Last edited by Trickster at 09-24-2012 12:02 AM]

Jatopian
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Trickster wrote:
When you make 5.0, make it so every room in a hold has its own undo limit, which the architect alone can set. Anything from 1 (the default) to 5, or unlimited (the latter which deletes all checkpoints). You might even want to allow 0 for special case rooms where undo shouldn't occur at all.

No. It should be consistent. And you know all kinds of newbies are going to remove undo to make their holds "more hardcore". In fact, one of the big arguments for more undoes is so we're less at the mercy of architects who get thoughtless about checkpoints.

This way, if you want to play UU, you do it with holds for which it was DESIGNED. You don't just go totally changing the game for 200 already-published holds. That's just dumb, and I don't think many people want to see that happen.

This already happened when undo was introduced and was further exacerbated by the presence of unlimited undo in the editor. Nothing bad came of it. And some architects - e.g. larrymurk - are then going to have to rerelease all their old holds. Oh, but they can't, because of HA rules.

If the amount of undoes is changed it will be because it is decided that the new amount is the way it should have been from the start, to maximize enjoyment by refining the gameplay experience to the good part, the juicy puzzling kernel rather than the tedium chaff that too often gets mixed in. As happened with translucent tar.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 09-25-2012 03:14 AM]

Someone Else
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Jatopian wrote:
No. It should be consistent. And you know all kinds of newbies are going to remove undo to make their holds "more hardcore". In fact, one of the big arguments for more undoes is so we're less at the mercy of architects who get thoughtless about checkpoints.

I don't remember who suggested it, but someone once suggested having a checkpoint that you could place in a room. Then, you can restart at that checkpoint. You could move it, but doing so would remove every time you stepped on it previously.

Personally, I think this is the best solution, not increasing the number of undoes. It solves the problem with architects not placing checkpoints without the undesirable outcome of optimizers being unfairly benefited.

Red-XIII
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A "potion" that makes you put a checkpoint sounds nice and it's a good solution, but it should be used only in some specific rooms right? Otherwise the normal checkpoint will lose his purpose.

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Moo
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Or you could have a certain number (3 maybe?) of "portable checkpoints" that you could use in each room. A press of some key would place one on the square you're currently standing on, and it would work just like a normal checkpoint. Once you've placed it, it remains there until you exit or reset the room. You would have to decide the best places to put them, as you wouldn't be able to move them except by starting over completely.
For the purposes of restoring, they could be ignored, and only regular checkpoints could actually save.

Jatopian
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Portable checkpoint isn't necessarily the best solution; it's just a less controversial alternative we can all get behind if UU doesn't get into DROD 5.

Red-XIII wrote:
A "potion" that makes you put a checkpoint sounds nice and it's a good solution, but it should be used only in some specific rooms right? Otherwise the normal checkpoint will lose his purpose.

No, because if portable checkpoint is limited to only some rooms it still allows architects to be inconsiderate about checkpoints.

Also, it is still useful to be able to return to an earlier part of the room if one places one's checkpoint in the wrong tile, through clumsiness of fingers or misjudgment of the puzzle - otherwise one might have to restart the room.

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mrimer
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I'd like to pop in here for a second to say that I'm personally fine with adding UU to 5.0. If anyone would be upset by that happening, please speak now or forever hold your peace.

Edit: well, you've got plenty of time to speak about it. Not like there's a deadline or anything at this juncture...

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[Last edited by mrimer at 10-02-2012 02:21 AM]

Trickster
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mrimer wrote:
I'd like to pop in here for a second to say that I'm personally fine with adding UU to 5.0. If anyone would be upset by that happening, please speak now or forever hold your peace.

Edit: well, you've got plenty of time to speak about it. Not like there's a deadline or anything at this juncture...

I'd be upset by it.

I'd be VERY upset if it allowed you to UU on 4.0 and previous holds, as this completely changes these holds. But I'd be upset in any case. This removes all the danger and suspense from the game I love. I really don't like UU. This isn't a game that's supposed to be "easy"...that's not why we play it.

Again, I have no problem with allowing UU on a by-room basis, but it should be up to the architect. Don't force my holds to allow UU if I don't want them to allow it.

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vittro
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I'd be very upset if UU wasn't introduced in 5.0.

If your rooms would become easier/trivial thanks to UU, then they're not good rooms.

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Schik
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I would say don't let an architect force me to play how THEY want to play. Let me UU if I want to UU.

I guess in general I just don't agree that making it harder by making you have to memorize and re-play over and over again a bunch of moves to get to the part of the room you're stuck on is a good way to make the game harder. Make the game harder by having good puzzles. UU isn't going to figure out any lynchpins for me.

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Someone Else
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I'd say that it would be very nice to have an option to turn off UU in the settings page. I like playing with just one undo, and I'd prefer being able to keep that (without just having to say to myself "no, don't press that again").

larrymurk
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I love UU.

I hope having the option in the settings can make most people happy so they can enjoy drod how they want.

Rheb
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Yeah, an UU option sounds pretty good. Don't see the harm...

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bwross
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UU belittles things a bit too much. There should be a bit more consequence to things. And there are definitely points where things can cross from the game giving the player a tool to the game removing a chunk of the game. I mean, a lot of people don't like orb puzzles (why, I've never quite figured out), but that doesn't mean that the game should include an orb puzzle solver that the player can use to blow through them.

However, one level of undo may be not quite enough anymore. It used to be way more than enough for me, but the complexity of the game and the holds people make have upped things so that Fast Finger Freddies can't be gotten out of as often with one move as they used to be (there seem to be more interactions and type of things going on, so one move often doesn't quite manage to back out of all of them... I've noticed that often I need two now). Three moves like the flash version seems to be perfect.

As for holds with badly placed checkpoints... I really like the idea to give the player a save point that they can set (definitely not as a potion... more like hit 's' and it drops a blue X save point, hit 's' again and the save point moves to your new location). It has some weight and thinking involved ... it's a bit like UU, but you don't get the fine granularity and you need to think about whether the section leading to it is correct enough to warrant the (re)placement. With UU, you can just back up to any arbitrary point in that section and fan out a different way... moving around like you're transversing a search tree of alternate universes rather than solving a puzzle, turning things into DROD: Chronicles of Amber, The Search for the Room in Shadow that's Solved! And that's getting too unreal for me, even if it can be optioned out.

Besides, the existence of anyone being able to play with UU means that people that opt out will still need to deal with puzzles that are built with UU available. I already hate the "search tree" efficiency problems we currently have... where things are so tight with so many monsters interacting that there is only one path and part of the solution ends up being "try each move from this position and undo it until you get something you like, repeat from the new position" (because working out all the monster interactions would be an insane task). I don't want to think what sort of horror someone will subject us to when Beethro walks the Pattern of UU.

In short, I think it's bad idea, and too much power to solve the problems it addresses. FFFing can be handled with 3 move undo well enough, and allowing the user the option to save where there isn't a checkpoint (with a limit of one save point per room) handles bad checkpoint placement more than adequately. There's no need for the silliness and freedom from having to think that comes with UU.

west.logan
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Thumbs up!

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larrymurk
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west.logan wrote:
Thumbs up!

thumbs up to the prev post or to UU?