Tahnan
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Do I have to start both topics? Well, all right...

The pulsing high-score notifications are starting to make me motion sick.

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 962
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I don't like how there seems to be on 4 new elements in this game.


I'm not a fan of the combo notices either. It might work in an arcade game but in DROD, it seems out of place.

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 04-02-2012 12:36 AM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

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Voice acting of the minor characters isn't really doing it for me.

While I appreciate the global and position-related scripts now available, we still don't have enough to truly integrate custom monsters into new holds, and this would have been the perfect time to enable it with the reduced emphasis on new hard-coded critters.

Rooms are a whole lot more painstaking to clear when I'm trying for high scores. There should be a command to automatically clear a room with the current top score to make it easier for us beginners.

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Jatopian
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Dischorran wrote: Rooms are a whole lot more painstaking to clear when I'm trying for high scores. There should be a command to automatically clear a room with the current top score to make it easier for us beginners.

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gamer_extreme_101
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I'm terrible with level names, but they explain in Daskaran Caves that squadmates appear in the closest entrance, but I did the Soldier horn level first and had to find it out the hard way.

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Briareos
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
I'm terrible with level names, but they explain in Daskaran Caves that squadmates appear in the closest entrance, but I did the Soldier horn level first and had to find it out the hard way.

I could have sworn I also read that in the game's help screens...

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coppro
Level: Smitemaster
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
I'm terrible with level names, but they explain in Daskaran Caves that squadmates appear in the closest entrance, but I did the Soldier horn level first and had to find it out the hard way.

A signpost in Inauro Canyon: 3N tries to explain this. It's not entirely obvious though.

Zaratustra00
Level: Master Delver
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The clone-TAB puzzles are even more awkward now that they're "squadmates". What, am I telling the monsters 'he's the leader now, kill him'?

skell
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Zaratustra00 wrote:
The clone-TAB puzzles are even more awkward now that they're "squadmates". What, am I telling the monsters 'he's the leader now, kill him'?

The monsters think "Ooooh, this one is fresh and moving he must be tasty!" while the others stand frozen, afraid to be attacked.

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[Last edited by skell at 04-02-2012 12:32 PM]

The Architest
Level: Master Delver

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I didn't like to find all the leaders for second time. Is it so hard to just stay and follow the plan? I also didn't like the lack of new elements, but maybe I still need to find good combinations for them to work...

Good job on the new game, Caravelfolks!

stigant
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I'm terrible with level names, but they explain in Daskaran Caves that squadmates appear in the closest entrance, but I did the Soldier horn level first and had to find it out the hard way.

I did the Daskaran caves first, and I still didn't get it until it was spelled out in the third room. Unfortunately, that was after I spent an hour trying to figure out the second room - one I should have got in under 30 seconds had I known about the closest entrance thing.

That said, I really like that mechanic. It's just not intuitively obvious what's going on, so it should have been explained in the first room, not the third.

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The spitemaster
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No talking lines from the world's greatest salesman.

Sad

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Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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I like shallow water, and I mostly like its look, but the distinction between water and shallow water isn't always perfectly clear, especially once it starts interacting with the invisibility square and shadows from walls.

Obob
Level: Goblin
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I wish I had heeded the warning that this was for "newcomers to DROD" more seriously. I picked it up anyways since I've played all the main installments of DROD, and loved all them up until this one. The whole hold took just under 10 hours, and the first 5 hours or so were quite boring. It picked up a little at the end, but 5 hours of good gameplay is not worth $20, especially when those 5 hours honestly aren't much more enjoyable than a good hold that can be downloaded for free.

Jacob
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It's probably true that a good portion of the hold won't be radically novel for someone who's played all the other official holds, however, remember that all those who get GatEB also get the Sms hold by TFMurphy along with their purchase.

This will be available soon and is significantly more challenging than GatEB, and showcases the new elements introduced in DROD4. So this will be of more interest for DROD veterans.

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SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
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I've reached Akandia, so I haven't completed the game yet.

One thing I don't care for is the way the cutscenes have been executed. The scene at the end of the Golem Pits, for example, requires the player to effectively mash the "wait" key to make the scene play out. This is no better than the scenes in the Rasarian court where the game just takes over and gives you no control. The "puzzle" scene at the start of Akandia likewise felt like it really didn't fit DROD's turn based mechanics. It took several tries just to figure out which tiles to stand on to make the NPCs act.

My ideal was back in JtRH where the Pit Thing holds a conversation with Beethro while the player clears out a large but relatively simple room full of evil eyes. The player wasn't left to sit and wait for the scene to end, and it made what would have normally been a simple but satisfying puzzle into a memorable room. Likewise how the final battle with the Slayer at the end of JtRH had Beethro and the Slayer trading barbs without ever making the player slow down to let the scene end. The first meeting with the Slayer in his classroom was a another really classy act where the player's solution to the rooms naturally forced the scenes to play out. That was the kind of design I hoped would appear more often in later installments.

I'm not a fan of the "Overworld" design in GatEB and TCB. The overworld in TCB was at least complicated and detailed enough to be interesting, but most of GatEB's overworld is pretty uninteresting. I could have done without a half-dozen or more screens of Tuenan beaches. Since the "Restore" function can be used to return to completed levels it isn't needed to let the player go back and uncover secrets.

I felt like KDD and JtRH had the design pretty well locked down. The levels were varied and interesting and came steadily at the player. You could still allow the player flexibility in which rooms to clear first, since many levels were designed so that you had four or more possible rooms to clear at any time until you'd whittled them all down. The lack of an informal level select didn't hurt either game in the least.

A possible improvement for the next game might be to add some new map functionality to make the "Exploration" part of the game feel more natural. The use of a Super Mario 3 overworld map with location pips could be one method, or a menu for selecting destinations as another. A non-turn based movement system for non-puzzle rooms is another method you might employ. As it stands now, though, it feels like the overworld sections are a little hacked together with an engine that doesn't really support them. Or, you could just go back to KDD and JtRH's hold design where it is effectively just a sequence of levels played in order.

Otherwise, though, I'm really enjoying the game. The philosophy of expanding on the existing room elements instead of introducing many new ones is a good idea, and there have been a few very clever and original puzzles so far, even though the overall difficulty is a little low.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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SirNiko wrote:
A possible improvement for the next game might be to add some new map functionality to make the "Exploration" part of the game feel more natural.

Hm, or make it that on hitting some action-key, the players are presented with the questions list which shows all already visited(!) locations with the ability to quickly warp to them. This could work only from within completed rooms to avoid situations where player kills all monsters but gets stuck, then he can simply use this warp functionality .

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Timo006
Level: Smitemaster

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And now on to the things I don't really like about the new game:

1) The difficulty is quite low, especially for those who've cleared KDD, JtRH and/or TCB. I was able to get to post-mastery in about seven and a half hours, without needing that much help from the H&S board. That being said, it DOES serve as an effective level set for beginners, so this doesn't have to be a negative point for everyone.

2) The story, while very enjoyable, suffers from a few problems.

-a)While GatEB is kind of advertised as a hold for beginners, I can't help thinking that there are a few details that requires knowledge from prior games (for example, someone who has never played DROD would probably have trouble knowing what a "Patron"is.)


3) Gunthro's avatar, that doesn't nearly possess the versatility of expressions of Beethro's avatar. I was actually a bit disappointed in this. Mostly because, while good enough for a side-character protrait, it just isn't good enoug to stare at for hours at a time.

4) While only very minor, I was confused by the fact that Gunthro couldn't walk through shallow water in the beginning of the game. This was easily forgiven, owever, at the end of Smuggler's maze.

5) The fact that there are only about 4 new game elements. This was, however, balanced when I saw the versatility of those 4 elements, and I can now say that I don't really consider this to be a negative point anymore.

and that's about it. I haven't yt played enough with the editor and scripts to see the changes that were applied.

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Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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Timo006 wrote:
3) The fact that spiders are able to traverse shallow water, someting that roaches are unable to do. At last there's a difference between spiders and roaches, and I got the feeling that, after such a long time of obscurity, this subtle difference in behaviour will promote the use of spiders in future holds.

You meant to post this in this thread, right? Or have spiders been made more visible now?

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vittro
Level: Smiter

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I would like to begin saying that I really enjoyed GatEB.
One of my complaints has already been talked about by others: the game is too easy for experienced DROD players.

I, however, have and hate to say that I feel more and more disappointed with every release of DROD. Take my words with a grain of salt: "disappointed" as in "expected something better".

It's a fact that the quality of DROD games has increased with every release. But (this is my personal opinion) that feeling of joy and interest became weaker with every release.

I started playing DROD with the very first version, Webfoot DROD, when I was 8 or 9. I loved the game, even though I didn't know what I was really doing.

I forgot about DROD, until I found out that "Architect's Edition" was released. Imagine my excitement and happiness: the game from my childhood, completely remastered, new graphics, sounds, music, and a level editor! A gigantic step forward!

Then came JTRH. The leap from Architect's Edition to JTRH, in my opinion, was the biggest one, the one that made me happier and even more interested. The story was amazing. Halph was amazing. Hearing every character talk, being chased by the Slayer, all in a new engine, with new graphics, sounds, music. And a lot of new elements. JTRH seriously addicted me to creating holds and playing DROD.

So far I had played 3 versions of DROD. Every sequel had completely revamped the engine, the graphics and added a ton of new features.

My expectations for the next release were very very high: I was expecting new graphics, new features, a new engine, and so on.

TCB came out. I loved and I love TCB. But I started feeling a little disappointed. It wasn't a leap as big as the other ones, and even if there were a lot of new elements and features I didn't feel like it was a completely new experience. I felt like it just improved over JTRH, but it wasn't something actually different.

And now, to make my main point: GatEB is a great game. However, I feel that it is a even smaller step than JTRH->TCB. Less new features, less elements. It feels like TCB, which felt like JTRH, which didn't feel like any of the previous games.

I understand completely that having a jump like Architect's->JTRH requires much more development time and a bigger budget, and that probably us DROD players are happier by having smaller "leaps" but more games to enjoy, but I can't help but feel a little disappointed.

That said, I don't want anyone to think that I didn't like GatEB or that I'm not expressing gratitude to Caravel for all the hard work!

My complaints with GatEB are:
- Lack of new elements
- Lack of groundbreaking new mechanics / new engine features
- Too easy for DROD veterans
- Some of the new styles could've been a little more polished

GatEB is a very nice addition to the DROD series and I would recommend it to anyone. And obviously, I cannot thank enough Caravel for all the time and money spent on this project.

In the end, I just guess Caravel spoiled me with the great improvements JTRH brought!

I wonder if anyone else feels this way...

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[Last edited by vittro at 04-09-2012 12:18 AM]

SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
Registered: 04-19-2009
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The lack of new elements did not bother me. The ones they introduced were fairly versatile and were thoroughly explored in many variations. The "Flood Warning" hold explores these even further and includes some elements not seen in GatEB.

Now that I've finished the game, I really find the story was very poor for a few reasons:

This game would be great as a game for DROD newcomers, but the story doesn't fit the continuity very well. Storywise, a player who plays this would be better off playing JtRH next, as that story logically continues where GatEB leaves off. Mechanically, though, KDD is the next game to play. This game would have been better positioned to segue into KDD so it fits as a true DROD prequel.

Second, the in-game story development is incredibly weak. Most of the areas exist as nothing but gates to get macguffins to move on to the next section. In JtRH, the player alternated between areas with no plot development and plot-important floors that helped to flesh out the relationship of Beethro to Halph, the Slayer and the Pit Thing. In TCB, every area leads Beethro to learn something new, or discover some new twist that helps define the city he is exploring. GatEB does neither of these, and follows a shallow and cliche plot through literally two points of development - one at the end of Tueno and one at the end of the desert region. The end of Rasarus resolves literally nothing except to give you a new set of macguffins to find.

The third and probably worst, is that the ending is wholly unsatisfying. Nothing is resolved. The only thing you do accomplish has been so heavily foreshadowed to be a "blunder" that you feel the urge to slap your forehead knowing it is a mistake that you are forced to make because the puzzle demands it. This is a sharp and painful contrast to the EXTREMELY satisfying finale of JtRH. In JtRH, you end the final puzzle by defeating an "invincible" foe who has hounded you throughout the entire game, and killed you dozens if not hundreds of times. In TCB, you finally reach the lowest level and discover the Pit Thing, and despite the ambiguity of the ending you're given quite a bit to marvel at. GatEB ends with the player realizing a victory that they already know is hollow if they've read any of the secret scrolls (and possibly even if you have not). You get no insight into the nature of the true conflict, and are left with effectively an ultimatum to buy the next game if you want any closure at all.

We have a pretty broad cast of characters in this title, but none of them are fleshed out because you meet them so very briefly. Contrast this to characters like The Slayer and Halph who made frequent appearances to ingrain themselves in the player's psyche. This could have been addressed by adding a few more scripted events to the dungeons to have the relevant NPCs make more appearances or have more dialogue. As an example, even when you encounter Aurora, she is silent when it could have been a chance to develop her and make her more than a mere macguffin.

The puzzle to find the bonus dungeon also brought to light how outdated the "Restore" function is. When trying to explore a secret area that requires you to move through some shallow water, you have to restore at a later position and then go back to the area with the secret. You can't use Restore to quickly move between the two NPCs who reveal the location of the dungeon on account of restore resetting the flags for some of the events and making people forget you. Mechanically, I understand this would be a big effort to correct, but it makes this all feel hacked into a game not meant to support this sort of thing.

There are some good things in this game.

The way the puzzles gracefully explain more complex mechanics like wraithwing behavior or how allies respond to horns are really ideal for a game for DROD beginners. The variety of the levels, both in aesthetics and puzzle content, are exactly up to the high standards DROD has always aspired and met. The ARG-like puzzle to find the bonus dungeon was well-explained and only marred by the clunkiness of the restore function. The Bonus hold "Flood Warning" is a top-notch piece of work and really improves the the value of this package (In fact, when I finish the Hold I'll probably write a post about all the reasons this hold should serve as a model for future DROD titles). I also loved how some of the secret puzzles give the player scrolls with flavor text as rewards (but I wish these tied into the plot better).

I really feel like the elements in this and my previous post do a lot to mar the quality of the game in a way that can't be easily rectified. While JtRH and TCB were satisfying sequels that made me gladly part with my money, I admit to feeling some buyer's remorse with this. Just barely a little, though.

I hope Caravel will take these comments and make The Second Sky the worthy finale it deserves to be!

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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I'm just going to agree with literally everything SirNiko just said except when he started complimenting the bonus dungeon puzzle at the end.

Briareos
Level: Smitemaster

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As far as I'm concerned I did think the story was a bit weaksaucey, but what I really missed...

Entrance
text
voice
overs.

All that switching between level entrance flavour text and getting parts of the story narrated by Beethro and company is rather jarring...

np: Clark - The Pining Pt. 1 (Iradelphic)

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Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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I agree with a number of SirNiko's points, particularly the macguffin ones. There are a handful I disagree with in passing, such as the continuity point (not that I disagree with the facts, but rather it doesn't particularly bother me that this is more connected to the later games than to KDD).

SirNiko wrote: ...it is a mistake that you are forced to make because the puzzle demands it.

Interesting. Are you sure the puzzle demands it? Assuming we're talking about the same thing...

[SPOILER FOR ENDING]

The puzzle to find the bonus dungeon also brought to light how outdated the "Restore" function is. When trying to explore a secret area that requires you to move through some shallow water, you have to restore at a later position and then go back to the area with the secret.

When I was going through post-conquer secrets, I restored to my last save point and walked around from there. So this wasn't a problem, and I don't think it bothers me that you have to go back and revisit places (as opposed to just restoring to them). The same was true, for me, for the two NPCs--it's a "walk back and forth" quest, and I kind of liked that.

bwross
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Timo006 wrote:
2) The story, while very enjoyable, suffers from a few problems.

-a)While GatEB is kind of advertised as a hold for beginners, I can't help thinking that there are a few details that requires knowledge from prior games (for example, someone who has never played DROD would probably have trouble knowing what a "Patron"is.)

This goes back to a comment I made elsewhere in the forum... if you've played the games as they came out, the Empire references are dramatic irony, and you probably get more out of them immediately. However, if you're just starting with GatEB, these things act instead as foreshadowing equally well. You've been introduced to the fact that there's a strange bureaucratic conspiracy about, where people are addressed by number and occupation, that's working in the shadows. That's all you really need to know to start... and moving into JtRH and TCB immediately after will flesh that out and provide you with answers, like what a "Patron" is. It's not like it's important to know for this game... they can always revisit the hold after JtRH and TCB if they want to tie things together.

This moves into another thing in this thread I'd like to comment on... I really like that this game segues better into JtRH than into KDD. I wouldn't normally suggest KDD for a beginner... it's an old hold (the oldest) and it shows. It's rough around the edges, it has puzzle types you won't see anywhere else, and it's inconsistent in difficulty... running into that Living Tar level early on is enough to make a beginner think of quitting. I think that KDD is better to go back to once you have some skill. JtRH is a better hold to start with, but GatEB is even better... it's light and quick and provides enough practice to get someone ready to fully take on JtRH.

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[Last edited by bwross at 04-09-2012 11:51 AM]

nobodybutyours
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 50
Registered: 06-22-2005
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I'm only halfway through (I think), so haven't seen many of the new features, but I agree with most of the critiques above. I'm enjoying the game, but it feels like it matches the overall quality and charm (and, as mentioned, novelty) of the SMSs rather than that of the previous full installments.

The one thing I'd like to see implemented, however, is a secret keystroke for highlighting secret walls. While I remember fondly seeking these out in the earlier games -- along with that sense of exploration they elicited -- it feels like a bit of a chore the fourth time around. Maybe my eyesight just isn't what it used to be, or maybe it's because hidden-object games have become a full-blown and oversaturated genre in the interim, but I'm just not finding it very fun to return to each room and squint at the screen for a minute or so to make sure I'm not missing anything. I doubt I'm completely alone in this?

Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
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This mod *should* still work:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6596&page=1#179545

Transparent tar and secret/hidden walls. This probably won't work with Gel or any of the new GaatEB styles however...

Dimitris
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 37
Registered: 01-01-2006
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nobodybutyours wrote:

The one thing I'd like to see implemented, however, is a secret keystroke for highlighting secret walls. While I remember fondly seeking these out in the earlier games -- along with that sense of exploration they elicited -- it feels like a bit of a chore the fourth time around. Maybe my eyesight just isn't what it used to be, or maybe it's because hidden-object games have become a full-blown and oversaturated genre in the interim, but I'm just not finding it very fun to return to each room and squint at the screen for a minute or so to make sure I'm not missing anything. I doubt I'm completely alone in this?

I agree with this.
One solution I've come up with, is this. Add an inventory for "quest items". Some examples:
-An exit is blocked by bombs with no fuse. You get the fuse from another room and use it there.
-A briar blocks a path.Get a special sword (like in RPG) and cut it.
-A locked gate requires a key from another place.

Also getting these items could be extra challenges within rooms.
For instance there is a room with shallow water , mirrors and a quest item in plain view. It would require more effort to get there in addition to the normal solution just to get out of the room.

This could be done with scripting I guess (like the secret room in Bractea town). But I think an inventory would add a lot to the experience and offer more options in designing a hold.

Panther
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 402
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Syntax wrote:
This mod *should* still work:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=6596&page=1#179545

Transparent tar and secret/hidden walls. This probably won't work with Gel or any of the new GaatEB styles however...

I have both installed (although not 100% sure that it's this tarmod - the tarmod filenames are the same, though), and both mods work with all styles (official and custom user-made styles) when installed properly into your .ini file. I do have transparent gel. And more importantly, with the secretsrevealed, I haven't had to squint at the walls or run around the edges of a room with my sword for years, and still don't in the new engine thanks to these mods. They're working beautifully. So, yeah, highly recommended.

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1978
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Just mastered it today. Still working on post-mastery. As always, great stuff! However, I'm posting in the "don't love" thread instead of the "love" thread first because things to complain about are easier to remember for some reason. Such is the nature of the fickle super-fan.

Golem PrisonEnding Text

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 04-13-2012 10:19 PM]