Re: Undo more than 1 move.

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Red-XIII
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

skell wrote:

The good things about UU:
5. UU allows for more experimentation, especially when you are unfamiliar with an element or multiple elements.
Things it won't affect:
- Lynchpin puzzles

Well IMO these 2 states are the opposites. It's true that in a Lynchpin puzzle you have to figure out what to do but with UU you can simply try on and on going brutal (like you said it's a bad thing about UU) until you see the solution. A lynchpin puzzle should let the player stop moving and think "How can I solve it?" And after you find a possible solution you try it, but with UU you don't have to do that, you simply go ahead and see what happens, if you die or remain stucked, you undo and so on.

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11-28-2012 at 11:13 AM

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Damien
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Again, why not just a three-steps undo? It doesn't have to be unlimited, has it?

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[Last edited by Damien at 11-28-2012 12:22 PM]

11-28-2012 at 12:21 PM

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skell
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

Red-XIII wrote:
Well IMO these 2 states are the opposites. It's true that in a Lynchpin puzzle you have to figure out what to do but with UU you can simply try on and on going brutal (like you said it's a bad thing about UU) until you see the solution. A lynchpin puzzle should let the player stop moving and think "How can I solve it?" And after you find a possible solution you try it, but with UU you don't have to do that, you simply go ahead and see what happens, if you die or remain stucked, you undo and so on.

Exactly, lynchpin puzzles make you stop and think and, because of that, in most cases brute force is most likely to not work at all.

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11-28-2012 at 02:12 PM

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Jatopian
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Damien wrote:
Again, why not just a three-steps undo? It doesn't have to be unlimited, has it?

Doesn't really replace checkpoints, and as soon as you have 3-move undo there's going to be cases where people say "dang, if I just had 4-move undo". And something similar will happen with 4-move undo.

That, and "why not just x" is easily countered with "why just x" when the two involve the same amount of effort.

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11-29-2012 at 11:51 AM

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Tim
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Jatopian wrote: That, and "why not just x" is easily countered with "why just x" when the two involve the same amount of effort.

Absolutely. When UU is implemented, you will find that there are ways to make new holds to be immune to UU.

In fact, there are already published holds that can't be undone, at all.

Be careful what you wished for, for you might get it.

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[Last edited by Tim at 11-29-2012 12:30 PM]

11-29-2012 at 12:24 PM

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Jatopian
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

Tim wrote:
When UU is implemented, you will find that there are ways to make new holds to be immune to UU.

In fact, there are already published holds that can't be undone, at all.

Huh, there are? Aside from RoboBob3000's Porthole engine and Someone Else's pre-entered move system, I can't think of any. And I guess there are some puzzles wherein one sets up a situation and then watches it play out. But what ones are you thinking of?

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11-29-2012 at 04:44 PM

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Tim
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Jatopian wrote:

Tim wrote: In fact, there are already published holds that can't be undone, at all.
Huh, there are? Aside from RoboBob3000's Porthole engine and Someone Else's pre-entered move system, I can't think of any. And I guess there are some puzzles wherein one sets up a situation and then watches it play out. But what ones are you thinking of?

I should remind you that I have, as a HA, tested a huge amount of holds, and sometimes I just test them in the editor with UU. I don't want to remember which ones precisely (and I have no plans to recall bad memories), but I do remember the frustrations. -_-

So it's very nice of you to ask for UU, but you will just get even more frustrated at -- amongst others -- the un-undoable rooms afterwards, like I have before.

If your problem with DROD is frustration, having UU won't solve your problem. It will only make it worse. (That doesn't mean that there are no good reasons to have UU, it's just that most of those presented in this thread do not belong in that category.)

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11-30-2012 at 12:37 AM

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Schik
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Tim wrote:
So it's very nice of you to ask for UU, but you will just get even more frustrated at -- amongst others -- the un-undoable rooms afterwards, like I have before.

The only place I can think of where undo doesn't work well is with cut scenes. We'd have to figure out what to do there. Currently the UU in the editor or in a dev build is a bit of a hack, and the no-undo-o-a-checkpoint screws up UU. If we make it into a real feature, I'm pretty sure that (and any other bugs you've encountered and reported) will be fixed.

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11-30-2012 at 01:15 AM

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Tim
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Schik wrote: If we make it into a real feature, I'm pretty sure that (and any other bugs you've encountered and reported) will be fixed.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we will have that fixed before or during the testing period anyway...

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11-30-2012 at 01:38 AM

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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

I know it's shocking, but I didn't read through all 15(?) pages of UU discussion, spread across various topics. It could be I'm repeating something, but on portable checkpoint idea, wouldn't it be better to have a simple load/save feature. It would require an additional save button. Load would be the same as "reset to checkpoint" and save would just land on the same stack as checkpoints / room start. You would have only one save per room. Previous save, if any, would be removed from the stack when a new save command would be issued. I feel this would address some of the concerns of anti-UU crowd. On some rooms a portable checkpoint could be placed in a busy place and spammed, giving similar results to UU. When saving, since you have only one slot, you would have to decide to "commit" your progress. It would be like stating that you feel you did everything right up to this point. On one hand, it removes some of the tedious repetition. On the other, it still requires you to think carefully about moves. Some tree searches are still possible, but wouldn't it make for a better compromise?

01-22-2013 at 07:15 AM

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mrimer
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+5)

Multi-move undo is being implemented in 5.0. Including UU.

This is a day that will either live in glory or infamy. Hopefully glory.

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04-30-2013 at 01:52 AM

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Trickster
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

mrimer wrote:
Multi-move undo is being implemented in 5.0. Including UU.

This is a day that will either live in glory or infamy. Hopefully glory.

Can we also add a trigger that happens when someone clicks undo twice in a row?

No reason. O:-

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04-30-2013 at 01:57 AM

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Dischorran
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

Definitely glory.

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04-30-2013 at 03:07 AM

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RabidChild
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

mrimer wrote:
Multi-move undo is being implemented in 5.0. Including UU.

This is a day that will either live in glory or infamy. Hopefully glory.

This sounds familiar. Will there be any restrictions on when UU can be used?

04-30-2013 at 03:58 AM

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mrimer
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+2)

No restrictions. It'll be a player profile setting. Please use responsibly to maximize personal enjoyment.

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04-30-2013 at 06:23 PM

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Chaco
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Two more questions:

1. Does UU start turned on or off? That is, when you first install the game and start a new player profile, is UU enabled or disabled?

2. Will UU be mentioned in the tutorial (pseudo-Clearing School) alongside its normal Undo explanation?

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04-30-2013 at 08:37 PM

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Schik
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

1. The default undo level is "1 undo", just like JtRH->GatEB.

2. We haven't really gotten into the tutorial at all that I'm aware of, so... I don't know.

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05-01-2013 at 02:25 PM

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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Schik wrote:
1. The default undo level is "1 undo", just like JtRH->GatEB.

I have to wonder if anyone will want UU turned off when it becomes available. It may make more sense to have it on by default.

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05-01-2013 at 08:50 PM

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Schik
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Trickster wrote:
I have to wonder if anyone will want UU turned off when it becomes available. It may make more sense to have it on by default.

Well, you for one, unless I misunderstand your posts on the topic.

And that's just what it is right now, when the slider was just added. It could change before release.

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05-01-2013 at 08:57 PM

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silver
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

Are we sure mrimer's calendar isn't 28 days slow? I'm finding this quite the surprise.

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05-01-2013 at 09:16 PM

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Trickster
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

Schik wrote:

Trickster wrote:
I have to wonder if anyone will want UU turned off when it becomes available. It may make more sense to have it on by default.
Well, you for one, unless I misunderstand your posts on the topic.

A little, yes. It's not the same to artificially raise difficulty by denying yourself a tool everyone else is using, so if UU is available I'll probably end up turning it on eventually.

I do like the thrill and challenge of UU-less-ness but I don't know if it will feel the same with the option just sitting there. Either way, the default setting should probably be what we expect new users to prefer (not us silly old-timers who complain about everything new), and I would assume that means UU on.

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05-01-2013 at 09:36 PM

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mrimer
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Trickster wrote:
I do like the thrill and challenge of UU-less-ness but I don't know if it will feel the same with the option just sitting there. Either way, the default setting should probably be what we expect new users to prefer (not us silly old-timers who complain about everything new), and I would assume that means UU on.

That's a good point. We'll think about this.

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05-01-2013 at 11:33 PM

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Tim
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Trickster wrote: A little, yes. It's not the same to artificially raise difficulty by denying yourself a tool everyone else is using, so if UU is available I'll probably end up turning it on eventually.

I do like the thrill and challenge of UU-less-ness but I don't know if it will feel the same with the option just sitting there. Either way, the default setting should probably be what we expect new users to prefer (not us silly old-timers who complain about everything new), and I would assume that means UU on.

If I was the game designer on this game I would know exactly what to do and not changing things again because someone just happens to ask for it. Of course if you want to make god-mode as default I'm not going to stop you (for now).

Seriously, I'd rather the hold and the story in TSS has a lot more focus to it instead of another discussion about an option that enables people like Larry to be able compete better with the rest of us. Along with a black-and-white option for colour-blind people, for example.

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05-02-2013 at 01:38 AM

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mrimer
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (+1)

Personally, I don't plan to play with UU enabled. I don't need it. (Ha! Take that!) But I do think I need a 3- or 5-move undo, so I'll probably try 3 for a while and see what I think of that.

Tim wrote:
If I was the game designer on this game I would know exactly what to do and not changing things again because someone just happens to ask for it. Of course if you want to make god-mode as default I'm not going to stop you (for now).

You might be quoting the wrong person in your post -- I'm gathering you're replying to me.

Rest assured, we're not going to change things (again?) just because someone happens to ask for it. You can see the approach I'd like people to take if they seriously want us to consider a change to a preexisting game feature described in more detail on the "Discuss the new TSS Features" thread on the General board. However, I almost never know exactly what to do out of the gate. In fact, in my experience working on DROD, the best features have come from a careful blending of multiple ideas from multiple individuals. So, I'm going to keep my eyes and ears open, because I personally don't mind receiving whatever help people want to send our way. We'll work to make a final decision we deem best for everyone.

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05-02-2013 at 01:54 AM

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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Tim wrote:
...enables people like Larry...

Hey now, be nice.

The politically correct term is those people. Occasionally with an invective infix.

Also I don't think anyone out there is actually like Larry in any respect so maybe just "Larry" will do; but I do kind of like referring to Larry as those people anyway. I'm torn. And I have 100 exams to finish grading tonight. I'm going to pipe down now.

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05-06-2013 at 01:37 AM

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Syntax
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Thanks Mike for clarifying what's been decided. Hopefully that'll put an end to all the speculating

Seems like a huge weight has been lifted...

05-06-2013 at 01:49 AM

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OneMoreNameless
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

Syntax wrote: Thanks Mike for clarifying what's been decided. Hopefully that'll put an end to all the speculating Seems like a huge weight has been lifted...

Would you say that placing huge weight by speculating has been ... undone??? ... without restriction??????

Actual question: I can understand the arguments and benefits of both playing with only a single turn undo (as basically typo-prevention) or playing with unlimited undo, and feel refreshingly neutral about it either way. What I don't understand is why anybody would choose to play with something like a 5 turn undo. You'd be allowing yourself to quickly take back mistakes in return for breaking immersion, but then also restricting yourself to an arbitrary and game-able number of turns of carelessness before forcing yourself to restart entirely and redo up to that point? Why?

05-06-2013 at 09:26 AM

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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

OneMoreNameless wrote: Actual question: I can understand the arguments and benefits of both playing with only a single turn undo (as basically typo-prevention) or playing with unlimited undo, and feel refreshingly neutral about it either way. What I don't understand is why anybody would choose to play with something like a 5 turn undo. You'd be allowing yourself to quickly take back mistakes in return for breaking immersion, but then also restricting yourself to an arbitrary and game-able number of turns of carelessness before forcing yourself to restart entirely and redo up to that point? Why?

Well, because some people feel that 'key fumbling' and/or general carelessness usually happens within X moves, where X is probably less than about 5 or so. They don't like the idea of using UU, but want a little bit more room for correcting mistakes than single undo.

...I guess? At the moment I like the idea of setting my undo at 3. But I do wonder whether, in time, I will just whack it up to unlimited, because it will be there and I can.

05-06-2013 at 12:14 PM

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mrimer
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

For me, 3 moves will generally be enough. Although, there are rare occasions when I find I have placed myself in exactly the wrong position (i.e., with my back to an enemy). So, I need at least four moves to turn around and deal effectively with that threat, and possibly another turn for proper tactical setup. That makes five moves. So, there's a theoretical reason for five, in that it should deal with 99.99% of all immediate tactical blunders and let me feel satisfied with the outcome from an optimization standpoint.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 05-06-2013 02:12 PM]

05-06-2013 at 12:57 PM

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Syntax
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Re: Undo more than 1 move. (0)

OneMoreNameless wrote:

Syntax wrote: Thanks Mike for clarifying what's been decided. Hopefully that'll put an end to all the speculating Seems like a huge weight has been lifted...
Would you say that placing huge weight by speculating has been ... undone??? ... without restriction??????

Actual question: I can understand the arguments and benefits of both playing with only a single turn undo (as basically typo-prevention) or playing with unlimited undo, and feel refreshingly neutral about it either way. What I don't understand is why anybody would choose to play with something like a 5 turn undo. You'd be allowing yourself to quickly take back mistakes in return for breaking immersion, but then also restricting yourself to an arbitrary and game-able number of turns of carelessness before forcing yourself to restart entirely and redo up to that point? Why?

It's a 6 year-old argument with many bad fallouts and I'm happy a decision has been made. That's what I meant. I've been extremely vocal about my thoughts on the topic to date but glad this parrot is finally pushing up the daisies.

05-06-2013 at 01:18 PM

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