Pearls
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Schik wrote:

Can't you choose to just leave your setting at 1 undo or whatever you find appropriate? I don't think UU is useful solely for optimizing.

It's kind of like arguing "Why make kids learn to do arithmetic by hand when we have calculators?" It's certainly arguable, but I feel a certain laziness of thought would occur. A weakening of encouraging a certain kind of problem solving, as west.logan described.

Schik wrote: HAs are already overworked and underpaid, and everything they have to do is very black and white, a hold is okay or it's not okay. This is a lot more subjective criticism and would be inconsistent between HAs.

This was half a joke. It more lead into the idea that unlimited undo sounds a lot more appealing when trying to solve rooms the first time when checkpoints are super scarce.

Schik wrote: We didn't do this when we added the clock, 1-move undo, or transparent tar. Seems weird to suddenly have the user experience change depending on what version the hold they are playing was created with.

This is a goodish point that I didn't think about. I'm not sure the timing of these relative to the scoring system provided by caravelNet. I'm a late comer to DROD, by a pretty large stretch. Were clocks after the advent of the high score system? Because the gulf between the advantage of clocks and no clocks, and undo and no undo is pretty substantial. If they were before the deployment of highscoring, I don't feel bad. If after, then maybe I see your point. The gulf of assistance between UU and a lack thereof seems pretty substantial as well, but as you quoted in a previous post, this is very much subject to debate. Not being an optimizer, I can't really say.

Schik wrote: Then just like with transparent tar, you can opt out of using it. Change your option to only allow 1 undo (I'm fairly sure that if we change Undo, there will be an option so people can use the type of Undo they prefer, and I'd suggest keeping the default at 1 undo.)

This come back around to the question of the importance of learning planning as a skill in DROD. Does the restriction of a single undo help develop better problem solving skills that permit the accessibility of harder holds? Tough to answer. If we take away that restriction, does it lend to using it as a crutch where you just brute force micro-solutions? It seems...slightly more possible in that scenario if UU is an option. I really don't know. I would probably swear less in my videos, though. SON OF A.

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Banjooie
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honestly if someone is going to brute force an /entire hold/ and somehow actually come out of it enjoying the game

i'm

i'm kind of baffled but i'm not really understanding why i should begrudge them somehow

WAIT

WAIT I GET IT

UNLIMITED UNDO IS DAMAGING TO THE SANCTITY OF PUZZLE-SOLVING

Schik
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Pearls wrote:
It's kind of like arguing "Why make kids learn to do arithmetic by hand when we have calculators?" It's certainly arguable, but I feel a certain laziness of thought would occur. A weakening of encouraging a certain kind of problem solving, as west.logan described.

As such, I'm not arguing that we include a room solver that will fix problems when you get stuck. To use your analogy, UU is a big eraser, not a calculator. You still need to get there yourself, you just don't need to scratch out the problem and start over if you make a mistake.

As for timing: 1-turn undo and clocks came along at the same time highscores came along, with JtRH. Transparent tar a lot later. I can't figure out if you think UU is a problem with highscores or with solving puzzles in general.

This come back around to the question of the importance of learning planning as a skill in DROD.

I just don't think that UU will make you plan less. It will let me effectively restore to a point that I realize is a good point to restore to after the fact, but I guess I think that's a good thing rather than a bad thing.

I think UU will help with the *execution* of a plan rather than with the *coming up with* of a plan.

Obviously none of us have done studies with old and new players both with and without UU and have hard data to back up our claims of how UU will change the game. All I've got is anecdotal data that I personally enjoy playing with UU more than without.

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The spitemaster
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Well as someone who plays my own work in editor too often I can attest to the bad of UU. I find that is possible to construct puzzles that are not feasible to complete without UU. I submit my latest hold Stalwart Defense. In this hold, some, but not all, of the rooms are not reasonable to complete without UU because of stalwarts. This is because no one really understands all the ins and outs of stalwart movement.

I think that, if UU was introduced wide scale this type of puzzle would become more prevalent. I also think that a new person would not be able to learn how things react, in much the same way that I am still unable to predict where a snake is going to move. (Even with the assist of the clock)

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Syntax
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Sorry to reiterate but... what's the actual problem we're trying to solve? What's the goal?

This is a unique franchise that has created a community of dedicated fans. Isn't that a great sign?

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hyperme wrote:
Also seriously how on Earth can going back 3 moves destroy the game? You can usually only fit one screw up into 3 moves.

I don't think the conversation is settling on a compromise. It sounds like the loudest voices here want UU as in actual UU, not just three moves.

Three moves definitely makes tarstuff much, much less dangerous, so even that is pretty significant. But I'm not seeing the consensus heading toward compromise in this chat.

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Pearls wrote:
The idea of discouraging behavior somewhat makes sense to me. After all, I could systematically beat rooms, copy mxvladi's solution perfectly and get a fairly reasonable score with minimal thought at the cost of a high amount of tedium, so there's some innate honor-system chink in the score-system's armor. But it's discouraged because of how annoying it is to do.

Slightly OT, but personally I never download someone else's demo unless I'm playtesting a hold. I like wondering how someone (i.e.* mxvladi) is able to complete a room in 3 moves when it took me 149, and figure if I want to know badly enough I'll play it until it comes to me. I can't imagine I'm the only person who does this. I see no fun in copying someone else's solution!

* Note: this is i.e., not e.g., as I am a realist.

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Schik wrote:

2) Hold Administers get on people's cases if checkpoints aren't suitably abundant, minimizing the difference between using UU and using checkpoints.

HAs are already overworked and underpaid, and everything they have to do is very black and white, a hold is okay or it's not okay. This is a lot more subjective criticism and would be inconsistent between HAs.

I'd always imagined there was some inconsistency anyways, but this is a good point.

Either way, nothing prevents someone from making a really crappy hold and publishing it. Nor is someone prevented from making an excellent hold, adding a fatal flaw to it, and publishing it. There are hundreds of published holds, so you only need to play the ones you like (unless you're insane like me).

No matter how you slice it, it's got to be in the architect's corner to make their product not suck. Architects ruin holds in more ways than just not adding checkpoints, and the checkpoint thing is less common than other flaws that remain in published holds (for me, anyway). Hence our rating system.

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The spitemaster wrote:
Well as someone who plays my own work in editor too often I can attest to the bad of UU. I find that is possible to construct puzzles that are not feasible to complete without UU. I submit my latest hold Stalwart Defense. In this hold, some, but not all, of the rooms are not reasonable to complete without UU because of stalwarts. This is because no one really understands all the ins and outs of stalwart movement.

So then, um...

Why did you do that?

I mean, certainly you knew "nobody will be able to complete this" before you published...

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larrymurk
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Syntax wrote:
Sorry to reiterate but... what's the actual problem we're trying to solve? What's the goal?

The problem that I'd like "solved" is that I enjoy the thinking part of solving puzzles, not the tedious keypressing or especially the restarting either because you mistyped or even if I decide I want to change my strategy from 15 turns ago. I have not been a DROD optimizer but I did use an illegal patch for a few days and I can honestly say it made my drod experience much more enjoyable. I soon switched back since the patch was not supported and I didn't want to run into problems. Holding down the undo key and only undoing one move was disturbing and less fun -- to me.

Syntax
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Thanks for answering - I like to know what the initial problem is before debating solutions

Your point makes perfect sense to me and in reply, I say lets introduce UU to the game. If the old schoolers see the benefits then so be it

Trickster
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larrymurk wrote:
The problem that I'd like "solved" is that I enjoy the thinking part of solving puzzles, not the tedious keypressing or especially the restarting either because you mistyped or even if I decide I want to change my strategy from 15 turns ago. I have not been a DROD optimizer but I did use an illegal patch for a few days and I can honestly say it made my drod experience much more enjoyable. I soon switched back since the patch was not supported and I didn't want to run into problems. Holding down the undo key and only undoing one move was disturbing and less fun -- to me.

I think it's more than safe to say there's no way UU will help me beat any of your amazing yet gawd-awful pain-bringing holds.

The problem with a larrymurk room is that it's simply impossible, despite containing nothing more than a single roach and some walls...

(Well, maybe the room of Perfect I'm stuck on, with all the roaches and the bombs, actually. Screw that room. But it's a definite decision-tree room, very different from your normal stuff.)

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Rheb
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Trickster wrote:

hyperme wrote:
Also seriously how on Earth can going back 3 moves destroy the game? You can usually only fit one screw up into 3 moves.

I don't think the conversation is settling on a compromise. It sounds like the loudest voices here want UU as in actual UU, not just three moves.

Three moves definitely makes tarstuff much, much less dangerous, so even that is pretty significant. But I'm not seeing the consensus heading toward compromise in this chat.

No no. I initially argued for UU here. But I can only agree with Mrimer, this discussion has brought up some really good pints.

I'd be all for a compromise. I don't think triple undo could do any harm, and I still like the portable checkpoint idea for rooms where the architects do not place any.

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Trickster
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Rheb wrote:
I'd be all for a compromise. I don't think triple undo could do any harm, and I still like the portable checkpoint idea for rooms where the architects do not place any.

I think at the very least we can all agree on a single portable checkpoint and three-move undo. But again, I don't think compromise is the majority opinion.

Nor is compromise necessary for all decisions. It's really more of, "Will this destroy DROD for you?" and people arguing it will, then we argue about whether or not those people are dumb for answering the question in an unexpected way. But it probably won't, so the onus is on those of us who don't quite want to jump from 1-move undo to quabillion-move undo in one fell swoop to argue why that addition is unresolvable, and it does not seem (to me) that we've done a good enough job of arguing that to satisfy TPTB.

Then again, Jatopian and Schik will generally assume I'm being hateful or passive-aggressive; Mrimer will generally assume I'm being friendly or helpful; and everyone else will reserve judgment or (wisely) ignore me. So it's probably best for me to step back from the conversation lest I accidentally list things one way or the other, which is what I intend to do from this point forward.

For the record, I think the fact we care so f*cking much about something as tiny as whether or not we implement UU shows how much we all care about the game (those of us on all sides of the discussion, I mean). So there's something, at least.

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[Last edited by Trickster at 11-25-2012 01:07 AM]

Someone Else
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You know, regardless of whether UU is added, I'd like a single portable checkpoint. I'm not going to use UU, but I would use that and I think it'd make the no checkpoint rooms bearable.

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I must admit it's daunting to think that UU might result in new players not learning to enjoy DROD as a thinking game, and consequently end up not enjoying it since that's what we've optimized DROD for. I'm not sure how we'd test the notion, or address it long enough for newbies to learn the Way of Contemplation, but it definitely gives me pause. Portable checkpoints, at least, don't suffer from this, and I think 3-move undo doesn't either.

I don't think compromise is off the table at all. In fact, what Rheb is calling compromise is where I suspect things will end up if UU doesn't happen.

Asking for multiple undo to apply only to new rooms is a bit silly since it's the abundance of old rooms that proponents believe could benefit that were the driving force behind the request being made. At least this time. I think the first time michthro wanted it for optimizing purposes, ironically enough.

Trickster wrote: Then again, Jatopian and Schik will generally assume I'm being hateful or passive-aggressive; Mrimer will generally assume I'm being friendly or helpful; and everyone else will reserve judgment or (wisely) ignore me. So it's probably best for me to step back from the conversation lest I accidentally list things one way or the other, which is what I intend to do from this point forward.

Predicting that people will be unfair to you generally doesn't inspire them to go the extra mile to prove otherwise; rather, it tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is because it's not a nice thing to do - it's dismissive of their agency, and harms the ability to have a fair discussion because it paints their arguments as biased while attempting to make it seem as though you aren't biasing the discussion by doing so. This is ingenuous if unintentional, and sneaky and dishonest if intentional.

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Pearls
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Schik wrote:

Pearls wrote:
It's kind of like arguing "Why make kids learn to do arithmetic by hand when we have calculators?" It's certainly arguable, but I feel a certain laziness of thought would occur. A weakening of encouraging a certain kind of problem solving, as west.logan described.

As such, I'm not arguing that we include a room solver that will fix problems when you get stuck. To use your analogy, UU is a big eraser, not a calculator. You still need to get there yourself, you just don't need to scratch out the problem and start over if you make a mistake.

As for timing: 1-turn undo and clocks came along at the same time highscores came along, with JtRH. Transparent tar a lot later. I can't figure out if you think UU is a problem with highscores or with solving puzzles in general.

This come back around to the question of the importance of learning planning as a skill in DROD.

I just don't think that UU will make you plan less. It will let me effectively restore to a point that I realize is a good point to restore to after the fact, but I guess I think that's a good thing rather than a bad thing.

I think UU will help with the *execution* of a plan rather than with the *coming up with* of a plan.

Obviously none of us have done studies with old and new players both with and without UU and have hard data to back up our claims of how UU will change the game. All I've got is anecdotal data that I personally enjoy playing with UU more than without.

Like I mentioned, I was arguing hypotheticals, seeming, like tarstuff transparancy, I can opt out of features like UU and it's no big deal. My only argument against from an initial perspective was one I can't really support with anecdotal data because tracking how new players learn is really, really hard. I was playing Devil's Advocate, mostly. To answer your question, I don't care about UU from a highscore perspective, because that doesn't appeal to me. Any suggestion I made to that end was merely to throw another idea in the pile that seemed like a decent compromise. I'm indifferent.

So yes, I was arguing from a puzzle solving perspective. When handling tarstuff, it simultaneously becomes much less thoughtful and much less frustrating. Less thoughtful because I'm don't *need* to plan as much; I can just flub five moves ahead, see how the babies are going to spawn, and backspace and deal with it accordingly. Horde management becomes easily just trial-and-error (not that it isn't occasionally that way anyway, but good horde management can be deftly executed, and that requirement of not getting yourself into a bad situation in the first place, lest you have to do it all again effectively vanishes with UU) It is this point of admittance that I struggle with: That this kind of gameplay is not intended in DROD, and players should not be subject to it if they don't want to be. Deadly rooms aren't actually deadly. That the game is intended to be less of a chess game and more of a slider-puzzle. But arguing that a puzzle game should be...thoughtfully tense, that that mental juggling act is a good thing, is a tough point to make so I'm going to give up on it. You say it helps executes a plan. It does. I say it deteriorates (though, not completely eliminates) the necessity to plan very carefully. It does. (Mind, I'm arguing the difference between a three-to-five move undo and UU, not necessarily our current system) Since we can't decide (read: verify) upon the importance of the gameplay demanding this kind of planning, I can keep my DROD thoughtfully tense because I think it's important to learning to play the game better, and other people can tailor their experience accordingly. Makes sense.


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[Last edited by Pearls at 11-25-2012 04:49 AM]

Trickster
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Jatopian wrote:
Predicting that people will be unfair to you generally doesn't inspire them to go the extra mile to prove otherwise; rather, it tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is because it's not a nice thing to do - it's dismissive of their agency, and harms the ability to have a fair discussion because it paints their arguments as biased while attempting to make it seem as though you aren't biasing the discussion by doing so. This is ingenuous if unintentional, and sneaky and dishonest if intentional.

I'm truly sorry. I've just given up trying to interact after several times of saying "I mean this" and then being told "no you don't, you're lying".

Granted, my dysfunctional mood is probably a big part of my perception of people, so I apologize for saying what I did above. Either way, interacting on CF is pretty emotionally draining for me, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I'm trying to get as much as I can out of DROD without the bad outweighing the good, and that involves some sacrifice.

And just for the record, this doesn't mean I think anything is wrong with you or Schik. I don't like me either.

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[Last edited by Trickster at 11-25-2012 11:04 PM]

Tim
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Trickster wrote:
Either way, interacting on CF is pretty emotionally draining for me, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. I'm trying to get as much as I can out of DROD without the bad outweighing the good, and that involves some sacrifice.

It's sad that some people here really are trying to bully other people, and I'm sorry if you felt it.

It makes the whole discussion about UU unimportant at all.

To be honest I had my mind made up about UU, but it changed because I've heard some really interesting point from someone. On the other hand, this all seems to me pointless now because I know anything I said here will be emotionally draining for me as well.

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Tim wrote:


It makes the whole discussion about UU unimportant at all.

I agree w/ Tim big time!

I hope everyone can try to keep this issue in context as best as possible. Try to remember your love for the game drod and all the great contributions everyone makes to the community. The fact that people are so enthusiastic about drod definitely makes discussions like this one taxing at times. Try to realize everyone's enthusiasm helps make drod the best game and community there is!

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larrymurk wrote:

Tim wrote:


It makes the whole discussion about UU unimportant at all.

I agree w/ Tim big time!

I hope everyone can try to keep this issue in context as best as possible. Try to remember your love for the game drod and all the great contributions everyone makes to the community. The fact that people are so enthusiastic about drod definitely makes discussions like this one taxing at times. Try to realize everyone's enthusiasm helps make drod the best game and community there is!

Everyone who disagrees with UU is a racist and kicks orphans, and everyone who supports UU is a smelly no good butt face.

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[Last edited by Pearls at 11-26-2012 03:36 PM]

The spitemaster
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I do both. Who am I?

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12th Archivist
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The spitemaster wrote:
I do both. Who am I?

A smelly, no good, racist butt face that kicks orphans.

Duh.

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The spitemaster
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How dare you say my evil, asian step-mother has poor hygiene! Not to mention her pimply face!

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And then the level of intelligent conversation in this thread dropped to zero.

Good job?

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hyperme wrote:
And then the level of intelligent conversation in this thread dropped to zero.

Good job?

Perhaps because everyone exposed their opinion. The best thing to do now IMO is to wait until the poll ends and then use the result as the final decision or some big guy (like MRimer) decides by himself what's best for DroD. We are in a democrazy yes, but if it doesn't work then there's no problem if an important guy in the DroD universe take the final decision.

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Someone Else
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Pretty sure I didn't make it a timed poll...

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This isn't the poll thread, but yes, people are still encouraged to post any further points they wish to make.

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Our history may not be all that good.

But really, I feel this has been one of the most civil and insightful discussions we've had on the forum.

And IMO, the last few posts doesn't change that.

I'd be happy to see this thread continue going strong.

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skell
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I think I haven't spoken in this thread, but since you all encourage me to do so then I will:

The good things about UU:
1. DROD is a puzzle game, not an action game, any state is completely predictable and repeatable - UU makes it easier to return to already achieved state.
2. UU removes the problem of badly placed checkpoints.
3. UU makes bad horde management easier to deal with.
4. UU removes the frustration caused by having to repeat moves to restore to already achieved state (like in 1.)
5. UU allows for more experimentation, especially when you are unfamiliar with an element or multiple elements.
6. UU can make some puzzles relying on or influenced by movement order less frustrating.
7. UU will make the game more newbie-friendly by making it less painful and intimidating.

The bad things about UU:
A. UU encourages* players to act carelessly more often.
B. UU encourages players to try brute-force techniques to progress.
C. UU may make it easier to beat old #1s in hiscores.
D. UU may trivialize earning hiscores.
E. UU may make the game less enjoyable because of A. and B.

Things it won't affect:
- Lynchpin puzzles

So yea, we've got a big facts list, I think the good things outweigh the bad things, and since we really want to cater to new users, I'd implement UU in TSS.

Heck, I'd think about implementing it in GatEB before it goes to Humble Indie Bundle.

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