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ezequielb
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icon King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+2)  
God! That EFFIN tar! This isn't the first hard level I've found or that I'll find in the game, but this is the most awful and obnoxius piece of crap EVER.
What pisses me of the most is this: in the intro of Level 6, it says "the Architect was trying to make a point, whatever that point was" and "I promise there is no other level like this one in the game". But you know what? I enjoyed Level 6. It was even better because I replaced the sountrack with the original music of Webfoot DROD and it's beautiful. But Level 8... I nearly broke my keyboard in half last night in a fit of rage.
Difficult levels are one thing. But tar regenerates AND it creates more enemies when you destroy it. This is the worst thing in the whole game and I'd like to punch in the face the butthole who came up with it.
That's all.

[Last edited by skell at 02-12-2019 11:25 PM]
01-21-2019 at 08:36 PM
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navithmastero
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+1)  
On this forum posts with more *flowery* language are generally frowned upon. That being said, I'm sure folks would be willing to help you if you post on the more relevant Hints and Solutions board with the specific room that's troubling you (see this page). Be sure to check out hints for the non-2.0 version of this hold too in the drop down menu on that page if you can't find the help you're looking for.

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01-21-2019 at 09:24 PM
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01-21-2019 at 11:58 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+1)  
...or single undo

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01-22-2019 at 12:02 AM
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disoriented
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (0)  
quote:
mrimer wrote:
...or single undo


...uh...um...

Touchť.

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01-22-2019 at 12:15 AM
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ezequielb
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (0)  
quote:
disoriented wrote:
Back in my day we didn't have unlimited undo


Oooh, so that's why I see new iterations of the game on Youtube automatically starting from where they die. Yeah, you won't find that in the older versions. Nor that timer that helps you keep the count on the Tar mother grow cycle.


[Last edited by ezequielb at 01-22-2019 01:08 AM]
01-22-2019 at 01:08 AM
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ezequielb
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (-1)  
quote:
navithmastero wrote:
On this forum posts with more *flowery* language are generally frowned upon. That being said, I'm sure folks would be willing to help you if you post on the more relevant Hints and Solutions board with the specific room that's troubling you. Be sure to check out hints for the non-2.0 version of this hold too in the drop down menu on that page if you can't find the help you're looking for.

Those have been a great help in the past, but not this time. The Tar mother puzzles require a move-by-move solution.
And don't tell me that you haven't felt the same way as me, and you didn't swear the crap out of this game in such places.

[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2019 09:38 PM : The friendly family friendlizer was here]
01-22-2019 at 01:11 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+2)  
To be fair to OP, rooms like King Dugan's Dungeon 2.0 : Eighth Level : 3 South, 1 East, and Journey to Rooted Hold : Twelfth Level : 2 North, 2 East (a room that plays a very similar role in that hold) don't really teach you the tactical techniques that help with managing huge numbers of tar baby spawns; it just throws the player in and expects them to either work real hard at it, or carefully try multiple angles and ideas until one works.

Managing tar is a matter of a full set of tiny little tricks (e.g. standing where tar babies would spawn to prevent them spawning, completely destroying tar blobs so they don't spawn more babies, letting tar grow very large so it doesn't spawn as many tar babies, hiding inside tar), all of which come with experience and playing a lot of tar rooms. We've all been there; most of us managed to not throw our computer out the window though. (Most of us.)

If you're having trouble with one tar room, I suggest trying a different one on the same level. Or maybe playing a different hold and coming back later. There's options.

Suffice to say tar can be fun, if you allow it to be fun, and appreciate the difficulty and puzzle potential it can create.

Level 9 has no tar in it. (Although you might decide tar was better.)

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01-22-2019 at 03:08 AM
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NoahT
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+1)  
quote:
disoriented wrote:
quote:
mrimer wrote:
...or single undo


...uh...um...

Touchť.
Or checkpoints.

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01-22-2019 at 04:05 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+1)  
Tar's introduction is definitely a difficulty spike, and you aren't really given any instruction or guidance as you try to figure it out for the first time. That being said, I actually thought that it was really neat the first time I played it, and tar was my favourite element for a while.

For what it's worth, I played with an older version at the time that didn't have unlimited undo, but that did have the timer and single undo.

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01-22-2019 at 04:16 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+6)  
Somebody wants to punch me in the face because... tar.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

-Erik

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01-22-2019 at 07:05 AM
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navithmastero
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+3)  
quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
Somebody wants to punch me in the face because... tar.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

-Erik


Mike will be done for when OP discovers Gentryii!

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01-22-2019 at 09:07 AM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+6)  
Ezequalb,

In all seriousness, I'm honored that you're putting this effort into the game, and I hope you keep going.

KDD is the most "historical" of the games, and faithfully enshrines all of my bad room designs like a museum representing a tragedy akin to the WWII holocaust. "Let us never forget!"

Can you believe architects (me) used to slop down a bunch of elements randomly in a room, with minimal playtesting, no community feedback, and call it shippable? The Bad Old Days, to be sure.

But there's some good stuff ahead of you in KDD too. Don't give up!

-Erik

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01-22-2019 at 09:35 PM
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ezequielb
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+2)  
Hello there, ErikH2000. Thank you for your encouragement. I'm honored that the person responsible gave me an answer! I think the problem is that the player's mindset isn't ready for Tar Mothers. Maybe you thought it was ready because you had introduced Roach Queens earlier. But, as you know, they spawn their offspring in adjacent tiles. Whereas Tar mothers... well, you know what you did (seriously man, what were you thinking?).
Mmm... if KDD desgin were that bad, it wouldn't have been voted the best puzzle game in Home of the Underdogs (according to Wikipedia). I think it's a great game. It's funny you say that you didn't have comminuty feedback, because you actually mean that the Internet wasn't as evolved as it is now. Ahh... year 1997. I was 7 years old back then and that's the reason I'm playing DROD today.

quote:
Chaco wrote:
Managing tar is a matter of a full set of tiny little tricks (e.g. standing where tar babies would spawn to prevent them spawning, completely destroying tar blobs so they don't spawn more babies, letting tar grow very large so it doesn't spawn as many tar babies, hiding inside tar), all of which come with experience and playing a lot of tar rooms. We've all been there; most of us managed to not throw our computer out the window though. (Most of us.)

(...)

Level 9 has no tar in it. (Although you might decide tar was better.)


I can't wait to reach Level 9 if hasn't got any tar in it. I've read some people complaining about the orbs in Level 9, but nothing, mark my words, NOTHING is worse than TAR.
I'll try to follow your tricks in managing it.

[Last edited by mrimer at 01-23-2019 04:06 AM : sanitized]
01-23-2019 at 01:17 AM
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+1)  
I empathize completely with a state of absolute, face-punching frustration from some games, including sometimes DROD! For me, I was playing the default game installs that GOG served me, so I didn't have but one undo all the way through at least JtRH, and sometimes found myself screaming "WHY CAN'T I JUST UNDO TWICE" when horde rooms got particularly nasty.

I can also guarantee that there are worse things than tar. But it's never really "what it is" so much as "how it's used". Tar can be used in a non-keyboard-crushing manner, and just as well, the elements you probably think are "easy" now can be put to use for some serious torture by a skilled enough architect. Just you wait--TSS, the final entry of the series, features a level in which roaches and queens become the most horrendously torturous element imaginable.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 01-23-2019 01:50 AM]
01-23-2019 at 01:49 AM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
ezequielb wrote:
I think it's a great game. It's funny you say that you didn't have comminuty feedback, because you actually mean that the Internet wasn't as evolved as it is now.

Right. It was around, but not as many people on it, and certainly we didn't have the Caravel Forum until some years later. In general, a person writing a game back then thought of it as a more solitary process. Whereas now, you think from the beginning about who might join up with you or be an audience.

It was just me on my Pentium with VGA graphics, fiddling with tiles, and thinking "this tar momma stuff seems pretty cool. On to the next room." Had a little playtesting closer to release, but nothing near what happens even on a typical user-made hold here.

I would've asked you to take a look, but you were only 7, and I thought you'd get my keyboard all sticky. :)
quote:

Danging crap, I can't wait to reach Level 9 if hasn't got any DANGING tar in it.

I don't care much if you swear. I do it too. But I can tell you that the particular culture here (CaravelNet Forum) goes against it. Think "mixed company" norms. This ain't Reddit or Youtube comments. And the people here are worth making a small effort for.

-Erik


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[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2019 09:39 PM : I know quoting is quoting but let's keep it family friendly]
01-23-2019 at 01:50 AM
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ezequielb
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+2)  
quote:
Xindaris wrote: I can also guarantee that there are worse things than tar. (...) Just you wait--TSS, the final entry of the series, features a level in which roaches and queens become the most horrendously torturous element imaginable.


No, I don't think so. There is nothing worse than tar. I don't care how roaches and queen roaches are used by the most creative or sadistic architect out there. They follow the logic of how DROD works and one can expect to find a breakthrough in a week or so. Tar just DOESN'T make any sense in the CONTEXT of this game.
This isn't Tetris for F***'s sake, the sword is used 99% of the time to kill things, and all of a sudden you have to use it like a DESIGNER TOOL.

quote:
ErikH2000 wrote:
I don't care much if you swear. I do it too. But I can tell you that the particular culture here (CaravelNet Forum) goes against it. Think "mixed company" norms. This ain't Reddit or Youtube comments. And the people here are worth making a small effort for.

-Erik



Umm.. I don't really know what "mixed company" norms are. Is this like a work enviroment, or a company? Well, after 1 hour in Twice South, Twice East, I was ready to make a post here just full of F*** and God d***, but I don't want to cross the line and get banned.

[Last edited by mrimer at 01-23-2019 04:08 AM]
01-23-2019 at 02:01 AM
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mrimer
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (0)  
Thanks for playing DROD! I can appreciate how difficult KDD lvl 8 is for you. Many of us were there in the same place as you were, and I can still remember how that level felt when I first played through it.

The Caravel Forum is a family-friendly and kid-friendly place. It's a great place to hang out if you want to chat about games.

I can appreciate you venting about having a hard time with a game, and also venting about arguably poor design decisions. I think most everyone probably agrees with you about the experience of kdd lvl 8 in one way or another. Please understand, this community appreciates a well thought out argument, not merely a...well...a tantrum. Those responding to you are actually trying to be *helpful* in letting you know that the puzzles can, and will, become much more difficult, as you continue to progress through the series. You need to know that's what to expect. Puzzle design becomes better and better along the way, as well. But some of my puzzles are in later games too, and one or two of them have been labelled as the worst room designs in the series, so what do I know. :P

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01-23-2019 at 04:20 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+3)  
quote:
ezequielb wrote:
No, I don't think so. There is nothing worse than tar. I don't care how roaches and queen roaches are used by the most creative or sadistic architect out there. They follow the logic of how DROD works and one can expect to find a breakthrough in a week or so. Tar just DOESN'T make any sense in the CONTEXT of this game.
This isn't Tetris for F***'s sake, the sword is used 99% of the time to kill things, and all of a sudden you have to use it like a DESIGNER TOOL.



I guess this goes to show how level design has changed over the years. Even without spoiling any new elements I can still think of several uses for the sword beyond just stabbing enemies:
1. Sword is a mobile barrier that keeps a monster off of you while you move it into a specific location.
2. Sword is used to carve a specific path in a section of broken walls (I had a lot of fun designing a few rooms around this concept; broken walls are an underused element in my opinion.)
3. Orbs lock a gate, so you need to get through an orb maze without your sword hitting any of the orbs.
4. Sword is used to prevent a mimic from moving normally, giving you additional leverage. (How do you make mimics more fun? More mimics! At the same time! But seriously, mimics were to me what tar is to you when I first played KDD.)

I guess as the player-base got more familiar with basic combat people started looking for more clever things to do. It's often the case now that the actual killing of monsters with the sword is just a kind of clean-up phase that happens after the room has already been solved.

Although, if you want to use the sword as a killing device, you can approach tar rooms as though you have to kill all of the tar. That should work for most of them. Treat isolated blobs of tar like roach queens (don't get surrounded during a spawn) and clear them out as best you can instead of rushing for the mothers. It won't be efficient, but it will be safer. This should work for most tar rooms in KDD I think.


quote:
Xindaris wrote:
I can also guarantee that there are worse things than tar. But it's never really "what it is" so much as "how it's used". Tar can be used in a non-keyboard-crushing manner, and just as well, the elements you probably think are "easy" now can be put to use for some serious torture by a skilled enough architect. Just you wait--TSS, the final entry of the series, features a level in which roaches and queens become the most horrendously torturous element imaginable.


Yes, usage definitely makes a big difference. Also, that level that you mentioned at the end there was the moment that I realised that roach queens were my favourite element in the game, so personal factors also factor into it.

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01-23-2019 at 04:57 AM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
ezequielb wrote:
I don't really know what "mixed company" norms are.

Fair enough. By "mixed company", I mean that a good guide for how to act is assuming people here don't all have the same values as you. So default to doing less things that might offend. Like if you walk into a restaurant full of strangers, it's a "mixed company" of old and young people, Republicans/Democrats, atheists/Christians/Muslims, etc. You'd probably act different than when you were around your best friends.

-Erik

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01-23-2019 at 05:44 AM
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ezequielb
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+3)  
Thanks for all the people who help me. But I insist: I know the levels will get more difficult. That's not what I'm complaining about. Case in point: Twice North, Thrice East has two Queen Roaches, two rows of Evil Eyes, a Serpent, and a Tar Mother. I solved it in 20 minutes. There is very little tar in it; it barely exceeds the body of the Mother.
Also, I finally conquered Twice South, Twice East. I did it today at 2 AM. Then I went to the room very far South which has three Tar Mothers. Managed to kill the two on the left side, and died repeatedly when trying to get back to the checkpoint. I banged by thigh on the table, out of frustration, and it's still sore. And it's on you. You have blood on your hands.
01-23-2019 at 04:46 PM
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ezequielb
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Sorry, but there's still something that unsettles me. It's 4 South, 3 East. That room is Level 1 material. Seriously; 6 North, 2 West from Level 1 is harder that this Level 8 room. How come the rest of the rooms are horrendously hard, but then there is this joke? Two rooms South, there is another ridiculously easy one; a 1x1 passageway with Tar Babies that go meet their own demise. 6 North, 2 West from Level 1 at least forces you to side-step.
I'm done; I'm done with this level. Please, give me a savegame that starts in Level 9, or a way to modify the rooms. I can't stand it anymore.
01-23-2019 at 07:19 PM
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disoriented
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icon Re: King Dugan Dungeon, Level 8 (+1)  
I recommend checking out the many, many free user-made holds, which you can sort by difficulty.
1 brains is easiest, 10 brains is impossible.
You can also sort by average user rating.

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01-23-2019 at 07:37 PM
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ezequielb
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No, I just want to bypass the tar; I can deal with other monsters, but not with tar; I can't figure it out.
01-23-2019 at 07:48 PM
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ezequielb
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DANG the Tar. DANG IT DANG IT DANG IT DANG IT DANG IT I don't care if I get banned I DANGING HATE THIS LEVEL. DANG YOU. DANG YOU.

[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2019 09:37 PM : Some more language cleanup]
01-23-2019 at 08:51 PM
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ezequielb
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DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU DANG YOU I HATE YOU

[Last edited by skell at 01-23-2019 09:38 PM : Even more linguistic deprofanizitation]
01-23-2019 at 08:56 PM
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Dischorran
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tar's neat.

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01-23-2019 at 09:20 PM
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ezequielb
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No.
01-23-2019 at 09:23 PM
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quote:
Dischorran wrote:
tar's neat.

01-23-2019 at 10:40 PM
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ezequielb
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Okay now, trying to use more family friendly language.

quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
quote:
Dischorran wrote:
tar's neat.



No DANG IT. NO.

DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR DANG TAR
01-23-2019 at 11:58 PM
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