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skell
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icon Improving Tactical DROD (+3)  
I'd like to present a short story of how the Fake TSS Demo came to be.

Once upon a time I decided I want to make a tactic game. I almost finished one, when suddenly 1st of April came close, so I've told the dev team I'll reskin it to DROD for the lulz. Fin.

I've talked to Mike and we both agreed that this project deserves some more love, and thus I am going to do just that!

What shall be done:
The most current list of bugs (and the roadmap) can be found here: http://bugtrack.mauft.com/index.php?do=roadmap&project=12
As not logged-in users you can view the contents of the bugs if you want to :).

What can you do:
You can report all suggestions you have which aren't already addressed in the bug list.
Once I'll post an update, you can see if there is anything else you might thing would be a good idea.
Do the surveys:

Should we allow units to move through each other?


What you should not request:
More levels ;). We are not leaving the mini-game canvas. After more discussion and thinking there will be more levels, but don't ask for them :).

That's it! It won't be quick, the first update won't happen sooner than in two weeks, but you can start piling up ideas now!

Play current version
Changelog:
29.04.2013: Relase of Beta Iteration I

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[Last edited by skell at 04-29-2013 05:22 PM]
04-04-2013 at 08:33 PM
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west.logan
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (+2)  
That's pretty cool Skell. I'm not very good at the whole tactical thing but I did enjoy the game (at least the first three levels).

I did notice that the undo button didn't work for me, perhaps that is to be implemented later. This would be really nice because: I kept accidentally skipping my character's turn by making him stand where he was. I'd almost always inadvertently think I was de-selecting him. Sadly, many troops gave their lives needlessly because of this.

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04-04-2013 at 08:52 PM
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skell
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west.logan wrote:
I did notice that the undo button didn't work for me, perhaps that is to be implemented later. This would be really nice because: I kept accidentally skipping my character's turn by making him stand where he was. I'd almost always inadvertently think I was de-selecting him. Sadly, many troops gave their lives needlessly because of this.
At the moment undo only works when you move an unit next to an enemy. This is addressed here - http://bugtrack.mauft.com/index.php?do=details&task_id=218 :)

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04-04-2013 at 09:03 PM
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12th Archivist
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (0)  
One thing I noticed was that player-controlled characters would sometimes move through each other to reach a destination. This is ugly, and I think it also goes against the spirit of the game.

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04-04-2013 at 09:27 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (+1)  
Can we have more levels plz? Also, it needs unit throwing like in Disgaea. And wubbas or other neutral units.

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04-04-2013 at 09:38 PM
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skell
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12th Archivist wrote:
One thing I noticed was that player-controlled characters would sometimes move through each other to reach a destination. This is ugly, but I think it also goes against the spirit of the game.
It makes sense, but making it that way would be against the spirit of tactic games.
It pretty heavily changes the gameplay. I'll post a survey... There, in the first post and here. I hope the survey works.

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04-04-2013 at 09:45 PM
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RoboBob3000
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I wasn't clear if the last option on the survey represented this, but here's my two cents: Units should get to move through friendly units and not through enemy units. This applies to both surface and empire. Certain units like the slayer (flying-type?) are exempt from this restriction.

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04-04-2013 at 11:49 PM
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stigant
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What you should not request:
More levels ;). We are not leaving the mini-game canvas.
I see little reason to improve the game if you aren't going to expand it or allow others to do so.

I do have a couple of suggestions:
Allow inactive units which haven't moved or attacked to become active again (say by clicking on them again). I frequently clicked a character, then decided I didn't want to move him yet, so I would inadvertently click him again (like a deselect) causing him to have used his turn.

Provide a summary after each level as to how many units you lost and how many hits you took and how many moves. On levels where it's possible to finish without losing a unit, you'll want to compare total damage taken instead.

Some sort of check-pointing or UU. Preferably UU.

Regarding units moving through friendlies: I would either allow all units to move through friendlies or no units. Having some units with this ability and others without it is confusing. I voted for all units to move through friendlies, but I don't really prefer that over no units moving through friendlies.



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04-05-2013 at 12:05 AM
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The spitemaster
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (0)  
Only clear targeting rules for the enemy units. There is many a case where the only way I knew where they were going was by advancing to the next turn. This, however, could actually be a feature of the game. So, whatever I guess.

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04-05-2013 at 12:52 AM
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TripleM
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Perhaps some sort of fast-forwarding the enemy's turn. Initially it's useful to see where each monster is moving individually, but when there's a huge number of monsters in a room it can take a while for them all to move one by one.
04-05-2013 at 01:11 AM
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Tahnan
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TripleM wrote:
Perhaps some sort of fast-forwarding the enemy's turn. Initially it's useful to see where each monster is moving individually, but when there's a huge number of monsters in a room it can take a while for them all to move one by one.
And/or, along those lines, the ability to zoom out. When the room was larger than the screen, enemies would move but they'd be off-screen, so you couldn't see what was going on.
04-05-2013 at 02:26 AM
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stigant
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Also, an option to forgo the notification that one of my units was hit.

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04-05-2013 at 04:15 AM
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RoboBob3000 wrote:
I wasn't clear if the last option on the survey represented this, but here's my two cents: Units should get to move through friendly units and not through enemy units. This applies to both surface and empire. Certain units like the slayer (flying-type?) are exempt from this restriction.

I fully agree with this and know that this is a working - yet fun - way.

And I want to say, that this is an excellent idea, skell. :) Keep up the good work!

[Last edited by The Architest at 04-05-2013 06:04 AM : I wrote this soon after I woke up.]
04-05-2013 at 05:29 AM
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Tim
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Well, I'd just say you should adopt the conventions used in most of the tactical games, like:

* Friendly units should always be able to pass each other. Except for flying units, see above.
* No UU, but the current implementation of your interface does make it very easy to forfeit a friendly unit's turn.

Of course there are lots of other polishes needed if you want to make this a game for casual people, for example:

* tutorials
* stats
* mute button
* level replay
* story

Oh, it's looks clumsy when a monster is walking back and forth when it can't reach the friendly units because a wall is between them.

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04-05-2013 at 07:36 AM
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skell
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stigant wrote:
I see little reason to improve the game if you aren't going to expand it or allow others to do so.
Good for me I am not you :). (EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending, I just wanted to funnily remark that I am aware of what you were saying and that I disagree with it, turns out I might've sounded like a butthole)

Allow inactive units which haven't moved or attacked to become active again (say by clicking on them again). I frequently clicked a character, then decided I didn't want to move him yet, so I would inadvertently click him again (like a deselect) causing him to have used his turn.
This is a more serious issue actually. Usually in TRPGs you are presented with a menu with possible actions - move, attack, item, talk, wait, pizza, etc. Lack of such a thing is caused by the fact that there aren't many actions to take, and that additional popups to click would just take precious time.
So I can:
1. Leave it as-is
2. Add a separate button for making a unit stand in place
3. Add popups for selecting action (Move, Attack, Wait, Cancel, where clicking anywhere else would act like cancel)

Some sort of check-pointing or UU. Preferably UU.
Absolutely not, it's very unlike the spirit of tactic games, even though lack of randomness might make it seem different.

The spitemaster wrote:
Only clear targeting rules for the enemy units. There is many a case where the only way I knew where they were going was by advancing to the next turn. This, however, could actually be a feature of the game. So, whatever I guess.
I don't understand :(

TripleM wrote:
Perhaps some sort of fast-forwarding the enemy's turn.
Noted.

Tahnan wrote:
And/or, along those lines, the ability to zoom out.
Noted

stigant wrote:
Also, an option to forgo the notification that one of my units was hit.
Noted

Tim wrote:
* mute button
You can alredy do that from the options.

Tim wrote:
* story
I am against forcing a story everywhere which is very common in games nowadays. I think no story is better than a crappy store but, at worst, I can add a small wall of text at the start of the game, perhaps the preloader?

Tim wrote: Oh, it's looks clumsy when a monster is walking back and forth when it can't reach the friendly units because a wall is between them.
Can you give possible suggestions what to do in that case? I assume you are thinking specifically of Goblins?

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[Last edited by skell at 04-05-2013 08:59 PM]
04-05-2013 at 10:43 AM
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skell wrote:
Allow inactive units which haven't moved or attacked to become active again (say by clicking on them again). I frequently clicked a character, then decided I didn't want to move him yet, so I would inadvertently click him again (like a deselect) causing him to have used his turn.
This is a more serious issue actually. Usually in TRPGs you are presented with a menu with possible actions - move, attack, item, talk, wait, pizza, etc. Lack of such a thing is caused by the fact that there aren't many actions to take, and that additional popups to click would just take precious time.
So I can:
1. Leave it as-is
2. Add a separate button for making a unit stand in place
3. Add popups for selecting action (Move, Attack, Wait, Cancel, where clicking anywhere else would act like cancel)

I would vote for 2. Or see below, undo/UU would probably also fix this.


skell wrote:
Some sort of check-pointing or UU. Preferably UU.
Absolutely not, it's very unlike the spirit of tactic games, even though lack of randomness might make it seem different.

I understood that stigant was proposing UU within your turn, but maybe I got it wrong.

Since there is no feedback on what the enemy is doing (and no randomness) while you are moving your units, why not let us change any of our movements before we end our turn?



Also, it would be nice to have some kind of highlighting of the units that still can move. I know they get grey when they have moved, but on the larger levels I had to really look for the units that had not moved when only a few were missing (since they are equally colored to the enemy units).


PS: I love how skell has lost 114253 in 5837 turns...


[Last edited by Bombadil at 04-05-2013 11:57 AM]
04-05-2013 at 11:53 AM
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skell
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Bombadil wrote:
I understood that stigant was proposing UU within your turn, but maybe I got it wrong.

Since there is no feedback on what the enemy is doing (and no randomness) while you are moving your units, why not let us change any of our movements before we end our turn?
It's a fair argument. Adding a UU would take a fair amount of work and testing with a very limited benefit (in my opinion), and would not be something I would want to port to my original project so I am even less interested in spending a couple of days re-architecting the code to support this :).

Also, it would be nice to have some kind of highlighting of the units that still can move.
Already addressed :)


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04-05-2013 at 12:21 PM
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stigant
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Good for me I am not you
Look, this was a fun game. I enjoyed it. But, and I'm only speaking for myself, I'm not going to continue playing it because you made UI improvements or small changes to the mechanics. I can see myself continuing to play for two reasons:
1. New levels and content
2. New goals.

If you eliminate 1, I've got to come up with new goals:
2a Optimize units/damage lost
2b Optimize number of turns

I'm not much of an optimizer when it comes to DROD, but the scope here is pretty limited, and there's a pretty clear lower bound, so I can see myself pursuing that avenue at least until I achieve the goal or stop having fun. However, since T-DROD isn't random, isn't reaction based, isn't two player, and doesn't hide any information, and optimizing requires a degree of perfection, I'm going to hit the frustration barrier long before I achieve the goal UNLESS I have checkpoints or undo (preferably UU). There just aren't any good arguments against it. Yeah, that's different from other tactical games. But T-DROD IS different in all the ways that make undo silly in those other games. Frankly, the determined user will implement UU on his own anyway, so there's no reason not to remove some frustration and implement it for him. Remember games are a way to have fun first. Throw up too many barriers to fun, and the result is people voting with their feet.

Now, I'm one player. You can lose me and it isn't going to affect your bottom line (whatever your bottom line on this game is). So take my advice or don't.

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04-05-2013 at 01:20 PM
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skell
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Stigant, look, I don't see why you got so aggressive here. I was just making a funny remark which indicated that I am fully aware of what I am doing. Ff you felt it was an attack at you then I am sorry, I totally didn't mean it. I am not sure if you are expecting me to answer your points or not - I don't want anyone to feel my answers are condescending, so I'll wait with it until any bad air clears.

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04-05-2013 at 01:38 PM
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stigant, while I very much agree that more levels would be great, there's still plenty reason to improve the game. Right now it's been released for the handful of fans we have here. Skell might want to put it on kongregate and other flash gaming portals, or put it on phones, or whatever. So my guess is that he's not trying to add re-play value for you, he's trying to make it better for when he introduces it to completely new players (and thus tries to draw more traffic here).

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04-05-2013 at 01:51 PM
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skell wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I understood that stigant was proposing UU within your turn, but maybe I got it wrong.

Since there is no feedback on what the enemy is doing (and no randomness) while you are moving your units, why not let us change any of our movements before we end our turn?
It's a fair argument. Adding a UU would take a fair amount of work and testing with a very limited benefit (in my opinion), and would not be something I would want to port to my original project so I am even less interested in spending a couple of days re-architecting the code to support this :).

Maybe we could go to something in between much simpler to implement with two buttons: undo last movement and undo all movements in the last turn (reset turn).
04-05-2013 at 02:13 PM
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skell
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Bombadil wrote:
Maybe we could go to something in between much simpler to implement with two buttons: undo last movement and undo all movements in the last turn (reset turn).
Hrmph... This sounds a bit more reasonable to implement but stil something that pretty likely will require a lot of code rearchitecturing. I've added it, but I am won't promise I'll add it. It will completely depend on the amount of work required to implement :).

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04-05-2013 at 02:28 PM
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skell wrote:
Stigant, look, I don't see why you got so aggressive here. I was just making a funny remark which indicated that I am fully aware of what I am doing. Ff you felt it was an attack at you then I am sorry, I totally didn't mean it. I am not sure if you are expecting me to answer your points or not - I don't want anyone to feel my answers are condescending, so I'll wait with it until any bad air clears.

I'm sorry if my tone was too aggressive. That wasn't my intention.

stigant, while I very much agree that more levels would be great, there's still plenty reason to improve the game. Right now it's been released for the handful of fans we have here. Skell might want to put it on kongregate and other flash gaming portals, or put it on phones, or whatever. So my guess is that he's not trying to add re-play value for you, he's trying to make it better for when he introduces it to completely new players (and thus tries to draw more traffic here).
Well, two things:
1. In a thread about helping someone improve a game, the unwritten assumption is that those suggestions will be put to used primarily to increase the suggestor's enjoyment of the game, and secondarily to pull other people in. Deviation from that ought to be spelled out explicitly.
2. That doesn't change my suggestions. You want NEW people to enjoy the game, then provide more levels and a friendlier interface. Use my/our collective experience to anticipate their reactions and needs ==> add more levels, and implement undo. That's worked for DROD for all the reasons it will work for T-DROD.

If your intent is to bring in new DROD players, you may not need more T-DROD content, per se (since you'll be providing the additional content in the form of another game), but the two games are different enough, that many of them will see DROD and say, "That's not really what I came here for", so more T-DROD content will give them more of a reason to stick around if they don't like DROD at all, and may ease the transition DROD if they're intrigued but not sold. I could be wrong on that. After all, my personal experience is coming at this in the opposite direction. But I can definitely tell you that if you hooked me with something like DROD and then tried sell me DROD-RPG, you'd never see me again. (not that there's anything wrong with DROD-RPG, it's just not my cup of leaf-juice).

As regards Undo: Understand the strengths of your game. I may be biased by DROD, but I think what your game has going for it is the puzzle aspect, not that it's similar to tactical games - a market that is already pretty saturated. Your game is to tactical games as DROD is to Rogue-likes. Undo can't work in random situations since you can just undo and redo until you get a random result you like. But it works brilliantly in a puzzle situation where the results aren't random so redoing (with no change) is never going to fix a problem. T-DROD's emphasis is on finding a combination that always solves the puzzle. In (Randomized) Tactical games, the emphasis is on developing a strategy that has the highest probability of success.

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04-05-2013 at 04:54 PM
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Have to agree with stigant and Tim.

If you want this game to be accessible to new people, you'll need some more levels, including some easier tutorial-type ones.

And undo will definitely make this game more enjoyable. It is frustrating to get very far and make a mistake and have to redo from the start. There aren't even any checkpoints.

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04-05-2013 at 05:00 PM
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stigant wrote:
2. That doesn't change my suggestions. You want NEW people to enjoy the game, then provide more levels and a friendlier interface. Use my/our collective experience to anticipate their reactions and needs ==> add more levels, and implement undo. That's worked for DROD for all the reasons it will work for T-DROD.
I don't disagree with your suggestions at all. I was just addressing the "don't bother doing anything if you're not adding more levels" comment. I think more levels SHOULD be added, and I think some sort of undo would make it much less painful to play.

My suggestions related to undo would be:
- Only end a unit's turn if they move as far as they can go or by some explicit button click. If my range is 5, and I move 2 spaces and then decide to move another one, I should be able to. This would fix many of my "whoops" clicks without even adding undo.
- Allow to reset to the beginning of this round
- Allow to reset to the beginning of any previous round
- (Individual undos would be nice but if that is somehow harder than undoing to the beginning of a round, so be it)

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04-05-2013 at 05:10 PM
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skell wrote:
TripleM wrote:
Perhaps some sort of fast-forwarding the enemy's turn.
Noted.
That task says
FS#233 - Add a slider in options which controls game speed (port to proto)
I think much preferable would be... like when DROD is playing speech. Sometimes you want to sit and watch it all, sometimes you want to hit space and make it all go away. Maybe a settings->speed_slider is still nice, but I think it would be way more useful to be able to fast-forward this turn with a single click/key rather than opening up an options dialog.

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04-05-2013 at 05:14 PM
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skell
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Schik wrote:
I think much preferable would be... like when DROD is playing speech. Sometimes you want to sit and watch it all, sometimes you want to hit space and make it all go away.
Oh, right, didn't think of it. I'll add the slider either way. Added.

About undo, as I've already said, I'll try to look into it but I am not going to promise anything - I will not do major code rewrites only to add this feature or spend lengthy amounts of time. If I can't do it under few hours, I won't do it.
Please take into consideration that I also have other projects at hand and future ideas. This is not a project like Flash DROD, where I am pouring all my heart and time. It's a simple, small game which I want to release to a bigger audience. Not everything has to be an epic game which gives you 300 hours of fun like DROD does.

As for levels the matter is a bit different, I will certainly add a few more but, as I have already said, I don't want to leave the canvas of a small game.

Maybe it's that I am having a completely different expectations from this project than the rest of you and I want to stay as small as reasonably possible because of the reasons already said above.

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04-05-2013 at 07:09 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (0)  
skell wrote:
This is not a project like Flash DROD, where I am pouring all my heart and time. It's a simple, small game which I want to release to a bigger audience. Not everything has to be an epic game which gives you 300 hours of fun like DROD does.
Sure, that's perfectly fine. There are always more things to build in the world than time to build them. It's okay to mentally acknowledge that those ideas may be good ones, but then rationally decide, "I have higher priorities than this planned for my gamemaking endeavors, or in my life." I think that, in the end, it's all about the tradeoffs, and choosing good over bad, and best over good.

And there's nothing precluding you from releasing a new, upgraded version at some point in the future, if you ever decide you want to pursue this further. Look at how many releases Star Wars has had. Or DROD :)

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[Last edited by mrimer at 04-05-2013 07:55 PM]
04-05-2013 at 07:55 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (+1)  
Allow me to propose an alternative to undo: Allow the player to undo a move that doesn't put a unit next to an enemy. As in, have the unit stay put until the player clicks on it again, then it will be hollowed out and unmovable. This should make it less frustrating for people who accidentally click the wrong tile. :)

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04-06-2013 at 02:46 AM
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skell
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icon Re: Improving Tactical DROD (0)  
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
Allow me to propose an alternative to undo: Allow the player to undo a move that doesn't put a unit next to an enemy. As in, have the unit stay put until the player clicks on it again, then it will be hollowed out and unmovable. This should make it less frustrating for people who accidentally click the wrong tile. :)
Right, this has been on my list of things to do even before the 1st but was stashed for later due to lack of time :).

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04-06-2013 at 07:33 AM
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