Insoluble
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This may be intentional, but it came up in Skell's hold construction livestream last night and many of us considered it to be a bug. Puffs can be pushed on to force arrows the wrong way and will kill whatever happens to be on the arrow. Apparently this works with orthosquares too. However pushing the puff onto a wall with a seep will not result in the seep dieing. To summarize:

Pushing a puff onto a monster:

*Onto walls: puff never enters the wall and monster lives as expected. EDIT: Puff enters the wall, but doesn't kill seep because of some weird seep voodoo. I'm somewhat okay with seep being immune to puffs since several other monsters are as well.

*The wrong way onto force arrow: puff enters the arrow and kills the monster.

*The wrong way onto orthosquares: puff enters the square and kills the monster.


This is very counter intuitive, but I defer to the powers that be to decide if it is a bug or to be kept.

By the way, here's a link to the live stream where it came up, (video in link starts right at the moment this first came up):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dmAZjkbHJPs#t=1988

I checked bug reports back to 2013 and did not see any post subjects related to this. I'm surprised it hasn't come up before.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 02-12-2015 08:56 PM : because I'm dense]

Chaco
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Additionally, you can push a puff onto a vulnerable monster on top of a closed door, and it will kill them.

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Nuntar
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I've actually changed my mind about this: I don't consider it a bug.

When you push a puff into a wall, you see it explode on the wall tile. (I actually would expect it to kill seep here, but I think this came up during beta-testing and there was some reason why they don't? Anyway, puffs don't target seep, so at least that's consistent.)

[EDIT: It wasn't during beta-testing. The post I'm thinking of is here.]

When you push a puff the wrong way onto a force arrow with no monster, you see it enter the force arrow's tile and explode. Given its behaviour with walls, that's what I would expect to see. (And yes, the same happens when you push a puff diagonally onto an orthosquare.)

To me, it feels like given the above, being able to kill a monster on a wrong-way force arrow is the most natural behaviour. (Same with closed doors -- again it's seep that are the weird exception there.)

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-12-2015 08:40 PM]

skell
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In my opinion it should be:
- Impossible to kill anything standing on a door or wall with a puff
- Impossible to kill anything standing on a force arrow by pushing a puff against the force arrow
- Impossible to kill anything standing on an orthosquare by pushing a puff diagonally onto the tile

This solution is the most consistent with all existing rules.

I will lobby hard and well to make it work like that, so you might not want to avoid the current behavior in your holds lest I succeed in my lobbying .

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Dischorran
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I'm fine with it being pushed into a wall and killing something in the wall; I'm also fine with it not moving and just dying on the spot.

As for arrows? Heck no. The puff's gotta die where it stands.

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disoriented
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I'm with skell. The fact that a puff's pathmapping doesn't kill monsters on opposite-pointing force arrows suggests the pushing behavior is a bug.

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skell
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Some additional summary of thoughts since I asked Mike to take a look at this thread:

Pushing a puff against a force arrow or diagonally onto an orthosquare will not kill the monster currently residing on that tile.
- Currently the only two things that can go against force arrows are weapons and platforms (and aumtlich beam and evil eye eyesight but these aren't exactly physical things). All monsters and pushable elements are blocked by them. Puffs are blocked by force arrows, so why would pushing them work differently? It is inconsistent with the rest of the rules and is a very specific edge-case.
- There is a problem of the nature that pushed puffs die on the target tile, in this case it is a force arrow. It would look weird if it exploded on top of the force arrow and didn't kill the monster there. We could make it that the puff is destroyed on the tile it started to be pushed but...
- This would make it visually inconsistent with how puffs are pushed into walls and doors - one push results in the puff dying on the target tile and another doesn't. A solution to this would be...

A puff can't kill things on top of walls and closed doors.
- This would make it easy to make it visually consistent with the previous suggestion. An in-universe explanation to this could be that the puff is smashed against the wall and since they are not lighter than air the deadly gas that makes up their form doesn't fly high up to attack the monster.
- I can see puzzle potential in making it work like this (although I can see a puzzle potential in keeping it as is too).
- This leaves us with a problem though - tarstuff mothers can be killed by puffs, how to explain that? The only thing I can think of is that the eye lives inside the tarstuff structure which is permeable enough for puff's gas to penetrate through it (although not stay alive inside) and kill the mother.

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blorx1
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The only concern I would have with this is that puffs dying also generates ice on water. So I would still think it looks a bit visually inconsistent to have the puff explode over the tile it's pushed into (say an arrow over water) even if it doesn't kill anything.

It's not a major concern, but it would look strange to me if you pushed a puff that was over water into an arrow over water and the ice formed under the square the puff started in, but the puff animation appeared over the arrow.

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skell
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blorx1 wrote:
The only concern I would have with this is that puffs dying also generates ice on water. So I would still think it looks a bit visually inconsistent to have the puff explode over the tile it's pushed into (say an arrow over water) even if it doesn't kill anything.

It's not a major concern, but it would look strange to me if you pushed a puff that was over water into an arrow over water and the ice formed under the square the puff started in, but the puff animation appeared over the arrow.

That's covered by this passage: "We could make it that the puff is destroyed on the tile it started to be pushed[...]". So in other words the explosion animation would happen on the tile where the puff was standing before it was pushed.

But you did notice a problem. Making it not be pushable into wall would change the behavior in the way that the puffs pushed into a wall/gate would now create ice.

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mrimer
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Hi, all!

I'm here to present my proposal on how to address these issues. First off, though, sorry I'm not around lately. Just not able to find time, for personal reasons. I'm planning on coming back to do more as soon as I can.

(Hmm...that was a rather mundane answer. Hey, let's come up with something more epic and biblical!)

And it came to pass that the priests of Skell cried unto the heavens and, lo, their cries were heard, and knowledge was sent from on high to rain down upon their heads.

Okay, yeah. Back to reality

Anyway, according to my knowledge of puff logic, the above-mentioned puff behaviors are coding oversights that need to be fixed. Thanks for pointing these out!

Puffs should not be allowed to be pushed in an incorrect direction onto ortho tiles or force arrows. They should die on the originating tile. The death effect should appear on the originating tile.

As far as I understand the original intent, puffs also should not be pushed into walls or onto closed doors. They should die on the originating tile and the effect should be on that tile.

Analogous to these behaviors is how powder keg pushes work. They can't be pushed into walls or closed doors, or the wrong way into force arrows or ortho tiles. When this is attempted, they explode on the source tile. The same should be true with puffs, that reside outside walls as powder kegs do.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure which rooms fixing this behavior would materially affect. In order to find out, maybe someone can insert that special CCueEvent type in places in the code where this occurs and run the spider on uploaded demos.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 05-18-2015 09:51 PM]

TFMurphy
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I've been lurking intermittently for a while due to what probably started as a bit of burn-out, and coincided with a reinstall of Windows that ended with several programs not getting reinstalled (little things like programming suites and the like)... so have been out of the loop and haven't had much to add. And once you have that momentum of lurkdom, it can be a bit difficult to build up any motivation to get out of it. Still, I think I feel strongly enough about this report to reply at last.

I'll cover Mike's points in reverse order, since it actually makes more sense that way:

mrimer wrote:
Analogous to these behaviors is how powder keg pushes work. They can't be pushed into walls or closed doors, or the wrong way into force arrows or ortho tiles. When this is attempted, they explode on the source tile. The same should be true with puffs, that reside outside walls as powder kegs do.

Powder kegs and puffs are not analogous to each other. Powder kegs can not be pushed into briar. They can not be pushed into monsters. They can not be pushed into tar. Fluff is a gassy substance that can be pushed into several mostly solid things, and in doing so, interacts with that object... usually by exploding and destroying/freezing it.

mrimer wrote:
As far as I understand the original intent, puffs also should not be pushed into walls or onto closed doors. They should die on the originating tile and the effect should be on that tile.

I disagree with this fairly strongly. It asks what makes walls/doors so different from other normally impenetrable obstacles that puffs can be pushed into. It also changes the mechanics on how to make thin ice -- currently you *must* have an obstacle on top of the water you wish to convert in order to make ice. Being able to push it into a nearby wall would change that.

Seeing that Seep are able to pass through walls, I believe there's enough 'space' for a puff to be pushed into a wall, but the act of doing so disruptive enough to cause it to explode, just like pushing it into any other obstacle.

I would also go one step further, and say that I'm increasingly liking the idea of a puff explosion being able to kill Seep. Puffs still shouldn't be attracted to them, of course, but the reaction could be said to be strong enough to cause their destruction.

mrimer wrote:
Puffs should not be allowed to be pushed in an incorrect direction onto ortho tiles or force arrows. They should die on the originating tile. The death effect should appear on the originating tile.

I'm ambivalent about this, but it basically comes down to deciding how strong Force Arrows are. And in DROD terms, they're almost completely absolute. So I would be fine in *this* circumstance for the puff to not be able to be pushed into Force Arrows, and for the push to disrupt the puff enough that it explodes on the originating tile. This gives us *one* exception to the Puff exploding rules: Force Arrows, which is already an exception to many other movement rules. Orthosquares I'm less sure about, since they don't restrict bomb explosions -- I see them as less absolute as Force Arrows. But I could go either way with them -- a whole bunch of puffs on orthosquares is already going to be a mess whichever tile they're going to explode on.

skell
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First of all thank you TFMurphy for chiming in, I am glad to have your input and I hope that you'll continue to be available at least to weigh on some of the bigger issues.

TFMurphy wrote:
I'm ambivalent about this, but it basically comes down to deciding how strong Force Arrows are. And in DROD terms, they're almost completely absolute. So I would be fine in *this* circumstance for the puff to not be able to be pushed into Force Arrows, and for the push to disrupt the puff enough that it explodes on the originating tile. This gives us *one* exception to the Puff exploding rules: Force Arrows, which is already an exception to many other movement rules.

I think it's a kinda of no-win situation, either way we have an exception:
1. If puffs can be pushed into force arrows then this is an exception from the general rule that nothing can go against them.
2. If puffs cannot be pushed into force arrows then this is an exception from the rule that puffs can be pushed into everything.

One thing that bothers me is that I fail to see the puzzle potential of being able to kill monsters on walls/doors with puffs because if you can reach it with a puff you almost always can reach it with a weapon and, if you can, you can use said weapon to pull the monster off the obstacle. Correct me if I am wrong.

On the other hand, after I think about it again, making it so that pushing a puff into a wall created thin ice seems to take away a lot of puzzle potential (plus would totally invalidate one of my rooms in Narrow Perspectives).

Maybe you're right and it's best to leave it as is + make seep killable with puffs.



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blorx1
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skell wrote:
One thing that bothers me is that I fail to see the puzzle potential of being able to kill monsters on walls/doors with puffs because if you can reach it with a puff you almost always can reach it with a weapon and, if you can, you can use said weapon to pull the monster off the obstacle. Correct me if I am wrong.

Well, it's up to architects to exploit those cases where one cannot. A couple off the top of my head would be trying to reach across a one square wide pit. Heck, you could do a two square wide pit by pushing decoys into it. Another way would be to do an efficiency puzzle where it's faster to avoid the wall by using a puff.

Orthosquares also make it impossible to push seep out of many wall configurations.

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Dragon Fogel
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I don't see why it's necessary to have puffs form ice when pushed into a wall or force arrow if it's decided that they die that way. Is it just complicated to change the code to require there to be something on the water square in order to form ice?

Actually, I just realized I don't know what happens if you push a puff into a golem or construct on shallow water. Or an obstacle on water, for that matter. Nothing gets killed in that case, but the puff is dying on water.

If a puff getting pushed into an obstacle on water creates ice, then I think it makes the most sense for pushing into walls and doors to mean dying on those tiles. Which leaves force arrows.

Maybe trying to push a puff into a wrong-direction force arrow or orthosquare just doesn't do anything? That would be similar to how fegundos don't explode on them. There's an intangible thing stopping them from moving in that direction, but it's not physical so there are no effects of impact. It's an exception, but at least it's one that's similar to another exception. That might be the best thing that can be managed here.

TFMurphy
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EDIT: Didn't fully read Dragon Fogel's post before typing the rest of this out, but he seems to have come up with the same idea. So maybe there's some merit to it.

There's one more alternative to Puffs being pushed into Force Arrows, and it's analogous to Fegundos: they end up not being pushed at all, and don't explode. This places them under the weapon that's doing the pushing. Fegundos similarly do not explode when flying into a Force Arrow, and Puffs are able to survive under most pushing weapons (they can even move under most under their own volition). Cabers should still destroy them though. EDIT: Or to think about this in reverse, consider this a push by the Force Arrow *back* into the weapon doing the pushing. All rules should follow for what would happen if you pushed a Puff into a weapon.

Not sure how intuitive/unintuitive the above would be, but if there's going to be an exception, this is one avenue to consider.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 05-19-2015 03:36 PM]

Someone Else
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I'm just going to add my vote to the previous two, in case this is a democracy: Puffs should kill things when pushed into walls and doors but should not move when being pushed against force arrows.

skell
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I really love this idea too - this way it's an exception from both cases! In my opinion it's the most consistent solution for me. I wonder if force arrows employ the same mechanisms as the edges of The Eighth? As in, you CAN move against force arrows but the timey wimey wobbly bobbly thing makes you stay in place anyway!

I don't see why it's necessary to have puffs form ice when pushed into a wall or force arrow if it's decided that they die that way [that they are killed on the starting tile when pushed into a wall -added by skell].

That would be adding another exception - puffs form ice if killed over water EXCEPT if it is killed by pushing into a wall or force arrow or ortho square.

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Nuntar
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No, it would be changing the rule to "puffs form ice if they kill another monster (or kill briar or collide with another puff) over water". Which, until the present discussion, I thought was the rule, so I don't think changing it would affect much in TSS. (Not that I think it should be changed. At the moment I feel neutral about it.)

Dragon Fogel asked what happens when a puff is pushed onto a golem or obstacle on water. The answer is that it creates ice under the golem / obstacle (remember, puffs don't kill golems). It looks really weird, but it is consistent with the current rules.

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skell
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Nuntar wrote:
No, it would be changing the rule to "puffs form ice if they kill another monster (or kill briar or collide with another puff) over water".

I am afraid the rule, as it stands right now, is "Puffs form ice if they die over a water tile". I checked pretty much everything I could in the editor and to be double sure I inspected the codebase and sure, function "ProcessPuffAttack" which is called on each Puff's death does the ice forming.

So yea, update your internal ruleset regarding puffs .

I misread Nuntar's post, disregard me. I just want to say that the rule is "Puff's form thin ice if they die over any kind of water". And there is one issue I dont think I've mentioned before, there would be a visual dissonance - one puff explosion creates ice and another doesn't.

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[Last edited by skell at 05-20-2015 06:31 PM]

TFMurphy
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skell wrote:
And there is one issue I dont think I've mentioned before, there would be a visual dissonance - one puff explosion creates ice and another doesn't.

I'm guessing by that you mean when a Puff is pushed against the edge of the room. That was always going to be a fairly messy situation, but the basic idea is that the Puff is pushed out of the room and dies as a result, but vanishing with no graphical effect seemed weird, so a puff cloud is applied where the Puff 'left' the room.

I suppose if we go with the Force Arrow change, we could also consider the edges of the room as 'force' barriers to Puff pushes. Again, ambivalent about this -- I could go either way on that. Will leave it to discussion.

skell
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TFMurphy wrote:

skell wrote:
And there is one issue I dont think I've mentioned before, there would be a visual dissonance - one puff explosion creates ice and another doesn't.

I'm guessing by that you mean when a Puff is pushed against the edge of the room. That was always going to be a fairly messy situation, but the basic idea is that the Puff is pushed out of the room and dies as a result, but vanishing with no graphical effect seemed weird, so a puff cloud is applied where the Puff 'left' the room.

I suppose if we go with the Force Arrow change, we could also consider the edges of the room as 'force' barriers to Puff pushes. Again, ambivalent about this -- I could go either way on that. Will leave it to discussion.

Nah, I was continuing the previously suggested by me idea of making it that puffs can't be pushed into walls and they just explode on the tile from which they were pushed.

I think they should die killed on the room edge and create shallow ice, should be the most obvious case for the players since nothing can leave a room.

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TFMurphy
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skell wrote:
I think they should die killed on the room edge and create shallow ice, should be the most obvious case for the players since nothing can leave a room.

If they can't leave the room, then there's nothing for them to explode on -- it becomes an exception to the rule we're considering adding for Force Arrows/Orthosquares. (Cabers, again, are an exception here in that if the puff doesn't move, it dies.)

If they *can* leave the room, they shouldn't be forming Thin Ice on the square they leave from.

I find it difficult to argue for both not leaving the room *and* forming Thin Ice at that tile.

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[Last edited by TFMurphy at 05-20-2015 08:15 PM]

skell
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We can't have it leave the room because that would be... a pretty big exception. As for making it work like force arrows, I suppose you are right. In my mind the room edges are a special thing in itself and deserve a special treatment.

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skell
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In 5.1:
* Puffs can no longer be pushed against arrows and ortho squares and will be instakilled on-tile if the entity is wielding a caber

The behavior for pushing outside the room boundaries has not been changed.

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kieranmillar
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Can confirm the following behaviours in Build 5.1.0.1006:

* Puffs cannot not be pushed against a force arrow's opposing direction, nor diagonally against or inside an orthosquare. The puff will not die when this push occurs with a staff, spear or pickaxe.
* Puffs die when they end up underneath a caber in all cases (but only on the following turn after spawning underneath a caber via a fluff vent).
* Puffs will not form thin ice when killed over water or shallow water via a caber pushing them against a force arrow or orthosquare.
* Puffs will choose to move themselves onto swords, spears and staves but are blocked by pickaxes and cabers. It is possible to get a puff underneath a pickaxe via a backswipe or fluff vent spawn, in which case it is not killed, as expected.

I'll leave you all to decide if all of this is intended behaviour, but I believe the third point to be a bug.

skell
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Yes, it's a bug fixed in 5.1.0.1007:
* Puffs killed by caber by pushing onto force arrows/orthosquares now leave thin ice correctly

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kieranmillar
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skell wrote:
Yes, it's a bug fixed in 5.1.0.1007:
* Puffs killed by caber by pushing onto force arrows/orthosquares now leave thin ice correctly

Can confirm that this is working correctly in Build
5.1.0.1007

mrimer
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Thanks for the changes and validation, guys! I think these are good changes, and it seems everyone's okay with them.

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Up above, when I was able to drag TFMurphy out of lurker mode with my suggestions, I can clarify what I meant. (Should have done this, like, five months ago. Don't expect anything to be changed at this point.) I would expect puffs to be able to move onto briar, monsters and powder kegs but not doors because there is air surrounding the former objects on their tiles that the puffs, being a gas, could occupy (while those objects remain an obstacle to the player). However, a door is ostensibly solid, completely filling the tile and without any place for air/gas to move into. That's why I'd expect a pushed puff to be able to move into the space of briars, monsters, and powder kegs, but not doors. If the current mechanics are fine with everyone, as I said above, I wouldn't expect any further changes to be made.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 11-09-2015 02:36 PM]