krukef
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 19
Registered: 02-27-2006
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The last time I have posted here was when I played the City beneath and got lost. I loved the Journey and kings Dugan - not so much story, just go on and solve puzzles. Now again I am running around the map, no one seems to talk to me, I am not getting hints and clues from other characters. I believe I went into every staircase and finished everything I could. Now the map is all solved except for Glum Cove 6N1E.
I am lost and I know why. I met many charcters and they have probably told me something important. I just like to solve rooms and when green resp. blue doors drop, go on. Anyone else? Or do you like this scenarios better than the simple ones?

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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I got stuck as well. And I actually did try to listen to what everybody said. It's not very fun not knowing where to go.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
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So... do you two want help, or do you want to complain? I just want to make sure the right tone is set for this thread.

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skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
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Hm, GatEB can be easily completed without listening to anyone talking really. I just did all the locations one by one and the only time I had to listen to was


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krukef
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 19
Registered: 02-27-2006
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Jatopian wrote:
So... do you two want help, or do you want to complain? I just want to make sure the right tone is set for this thread.

I am wisely combining complaining, asking for help and wondering if I am the only one who tends to dislike these non linear holds

krukef
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 19
Registered: 02-27-2006
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you can also guess from my rank points, that I am not hard core drod player. I just like the concept of game, I like to solve unsolvable. I do not like going round in solved areas, getting mad, turning the game off and on again after half an hour hoping that miracle happened

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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Well... If you just want puzzles I think the best puzzles is generally to be found in the usermade holds.

krukef
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 19
Registered: 02-27-2006
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Blondbeard wrote:
Well... If you just want puzzles I think the best puzzles is generally to be found in the usermade holds.

I might not have all of them but 80-90% for sure

Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3746
Registered: 10-01-2004
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If you want some help, let us know where you are, what you're trying to do, what you've done so far, or some pointers like that.

I personally enjoy non-linear holds since you can try something else out if you're stuck somewhere or not enjoying a particular puzzle and I enjoy games that include exploration. The MetDROiD holds are among the most highly voted and they're full of non-linearity and exploration.

Though I'm slightly biased when it comes to GatEB.

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SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
Registered: 04-19-2009
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If you don't know where to go next, a good solution is to go to the "Get Help for a Room" link in the Hints and Solutions board, scroll down the list of levels until you find an unfamiliar one, and then post in the "Entrance" room for that level a question on how to reach it.

Optionally, you could simply create a unique thread in Hints and Solutions with a non-standard title like "What do you do after you rescue person x?". The hints and solutions board is not conveniently laid out for situations where you're having trouble finding a puzzle as opposed to solving it.

I also dislike the non-linear nature of the games after Journey to Rooted Hold, but for me that mostly because the DROD engine isn't very well designed for exploring an overworld. Non-monster themed levels (like the visit to Dugandy in City Beneath) are a little better use of the engine since you're keeping the linear design of the game but giving the player a chance to explore a setting that isn't just another dungeon level.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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SirNiko wrote:
I also dislike the non-linear nature of the games after Journey to Rooted Hold, but for me that mostly because the DROD engine isn't very well designed for exploring an overworld.

Nowadays people are used to journals, quests lists and other unfair handicaps. Back when I played RPGs there was no fancy stuff like that!

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[Last edited by skell at 05-17-2012 01:01 PM]

krukef
Level: Goblin

Rank Points: 19
Registered: 02-27-2006
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Syntax
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1218
Registered: 05-12-2005
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This thread reminds me why I actually prefer linear holds. If solving puzzles is your enjoyment, then it makes more sense that way.

Keiya
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 73
Registered: 03-25-2012
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The problem with linear holds is that they are TERRIBLE for keeping players interested. If you get hideously stuck, what do you do? Nothing, there's nothing you can do but beat your head on it over and over and over. No chance to go solve other puzzles the come back for the 'ahah' moment.

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SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
Registered: 04-19-2009
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The problem is that in this particular case, the player completed all the puzzles and still reached a brick wall when he could not find the next level. Now he has the same problems as a player who may be 'hideously stuck' on a puzzle, with the added difficulty that he can't even find the next puzzle to know how to ask for assistance on solving it.

The other dilemma is that non-linear holds like Epic Blunder do not solve the typical puzzle game problem of brick-wall puzzles. You might be able to put off a more difficult puzzle a little longer if you have more levels to explore, but eventually you have to solve all the puzzles to get through the next content gate (eg, Smuggler's Maze, the Keep, etc). In order to achieve this small delay you risk confused players who cannot find the next level, bored players who tire of criss-crossing the world map, and inflexibility on story and the difficulty curve because you can't predict which level the player will play next (eg, players who had difficulty understanding the Horn item because they did the levels out of order and did not get the tutorial).

If the goal is to eliminate the brick wall, some alternate methods might be to drop the level gate when the player has completed some threshold of puzzles, say, any 8 out of the 10 total puzzles in a level, or to even make puzzle completion optional (all levels are available at the start). These still present the player with the risk of getting lost (if the level selection mechanic is complicated) and present new challenges with story/event design and design of the difficulty curve, but they might help out the portion of the player base who might love DROD but hate getting stuck.

In the end, though, the best solution is going to be improved access to the existing hints and solutions board so that stuck players can get a demo to send them on their way. Then the need for non-linear holds evaporates and can only be used when it makes the hold more fun.

Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
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I've gotten as far as the second major "content gate" and in both cases there was an NPC telling me what to do next. Grotto Hideout required a little looking at the map and a little basic thought, but that in itself was a puzzle.

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Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3410
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I like nonlinear holds. And metapuzzles. Maybe even anagrams. They're all great ways to add something different to a hold and when done well tie it all together. And I'm generally willing to sit through a builder efficiency room or two if the rest of the hold is good, anyway - I don't expect every puzzle to be crafted just for me.

(Slayer manipulation, on the other hand, there's no excuse for.)

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Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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I will say that TCB did have this problem a bit, though. I feel that it would have benefited from an NPC to tell you where to go next. Maybe through conversation with the Infohut guy Beethro could have remembered or realized his next destination.

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SirNiko
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 62
Registered: 04-19-2009
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I want to clear up one point because I think maybe people are assuming I dislike variety: A nonlinear hold (or any game, really) can be fun when it's designed specifically to take advantage of non-linearity. I also think meta-puzzles can be great, especially when they force the player to think about the rules of the game in a fresh perspective without changing any rules.

Complex Complex and its meta-puzzle in the lava level is a great example of this done very well. It relied on a very natural DROD mechanic of hot tiles and sword turning to create a larger puzzle that made the player think about sword turning in a way they likely had never done before.

Finding the First Truth was non-linear, but didn't need to use a sprawling world map to do this. It presented your options right up front and moved straight on to the puzzles. The result was very little downtime and virtually zero backtracking.

Gunthro's meta-puzzles didn't use any of the game's mechanics to hide them, instead relying on scripted events (granting the player water-walking and later talking to a hidden NPC) or a word puzzle that could have been transcribed into any non-DROD game without a single change. The non-linear world map was just uninteresting and time consuming, and I felt the game's plot and difficulty curve suffered to make the game non-linear with virtually no benefits.

So I like non-linear games, and I like meta-puzzles, I just don't think they are automatically improvements to anything that uses them, and that GatEB didn't use them properly.

And also, as negative as I am about Gunthro, I really do love DROD and I am really looking forward to Flash DROD. From what I've heard it sounds like it will be an excellent newbie DROD game. I look forward to giving that glowing praise and sharing it with my non-DROD playing friends.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5088
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SirNiko wrote:
And also, as negative as I am about Gunthro, I really do love DROD and I am really looking forward to Flash DROD. From what I've heard it sounds like it will be an excellent newbie DROD game. I look forward to giving that glowing praise and sharing it with my non-DROD playing friends.

Uhh...well...actually...I'm foreseeing that will be your appraisal of Flash DROD will be "If you're new to DROD, then you might find some good stuff in this, but DROD players should give this a pass." I'd rather you not say that again. It still smarts from last time.

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Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
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DROD players will not want to give FDROD a pass! For one thing, there are plenty of brand new secret rooms from your* favorite architects, and the mastery area rooms are even difficult.

Besides, it's not really the same room layouts as KDD - if nothing else, there's less room per room - and how long has it been since you played KDD, anyway? Maybe you say it doesn't matter because you don't think KDD aged well? Well we've given it a thorough checkpointing and redone several of everyone's least favorite rooms to be more fun.

If nothing else, the new puzzles are great and a smaller version of KDD isn't that hard to power through to see them. And there are achievements to do as you go. Some of them are quite devilish.

Finally, it's a brand new and shiny high score list to dominate, and there will be more differences in the competitive optimizing game than you might expect...

* assuming you're like most people, and based upon my having been around a while and seeing what architects are popular, which admittedly lacks methodological rigor.

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mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5088
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Jatopian wrote:
DROD players will not want to give FDROD a pass!

I completely agree with everything you say here. Thank you for elaborating on these features -- this is a really cool project. I'm simply concerned that this would be SirNiko's take.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 05-24-2012 05:23 PM]

Keiya
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 73
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Jatopian wrote: and how long has it been since you played KDD, anyway?

About a month and a half, why?

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