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Xindaris
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Custom Element Contest Compilation

Well, now that the voting's over it's a good time to try and put together a proper compilation for the HA's. The following things need to be done to do that:

-Hub needs to be finished: I want to have each level exit into a room where I used the level's element to make a simple mini-puzzle; I want the hub to have some sort of pretense of a story or something and also some appropriate ending, and I want the hub level to be named something better than the slapped-together "Hub Level Thing" I made just so the voting could start as soon as possible. This is pretty much all on me though I guess early on I'm open to suggestions with the "plot" and "title" issues.
-Any level-breaking, room-breaking, or just generally horrific bugs need to be ironed out. There's no need to completely reconfigure your element, but we don't want assertion errors or unclearable rooms or anything like that. As far as I'm aware this version has all the fixes that were sent to me during voting, but let me know if you need to get something fixed. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't go for altering the elements' behaviors too much, nor the levels, and submit this in a state reasonably close to the one that was voted on for historical purposes. If we want to change things to address complaints with the elements that came up during voting or add new features like tokens or whatever I think it's a better idea to put that in a different hold specifically for architects to take the elements from, something like the TSS custom elements pack.
-Mid-level leave stairs should be fixed. Several entries were sent to me with no stairs to exit mid-level, so I added one as unobtrusively as I could manage. It would be much better if everyone who sent an entry missing such stairs could please move the room-exit stairs and redecorate things to look nice with their own level's aesthetic and send me a copy of the relevant rooms to paste into the compilation. Koopa Bros' Fortress is included in this, but that one was missing "level is finished" stairs behind a blue door instead of mid-level escape ones. There's no easy way to add stairs like this for That Familiar Feeling but I accept this and consider it ok since that entry is pretty short and easy anyway.
-Room testing, basic leak fixes if you'd like, that sort of thing. But see the point a couple above this one where I talk about preserving the levels essentially as-is for historical purposes.
-Demo Production: I know at least one or two people played through the whole hold, so if anyone's willing to donate their demos of all the in-level levels that'd be wonderful. I'll make the hub demos myself once the thing is finalized.
-Anything I forgot?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 05-10-2017 03:09 PM]
02-26-2017 at 04:06 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
Here's some quick fixes. Added a couple checkpoints where I didn't bother and then fixed the infinite loop in the script.

Note that I have an interesting plan to make something with these (along with an easily manipulable character that can body push), so I changed the script to remove the ignores invisibility (which was surprisingly non-trivial because getting pushed really messes with script timing with moves). I made a change to the two rooms with invisibility to work around this.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 02-27-2017 06:50 AM]
02-27-2017 at 03:42 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (+10)  
Just for the record, I'm fine with the location of the "hub return" stairs in Swampy Basement and don't have any further suggested changes.

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02-27-2017 at 04:24 AM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
A version of PCTT that doesn't let you skip the tar and gel rooms via decoy trickery. There's nothing else I think I need to change in the script. The Pulse Cannon being able to see over monster remains it considered intended, and so is it's undemonstrated ability to see and shoot through Fluff.

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02-27-2017 at 07:04 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
Here is my set of demos, although it sounds like people will be making changes to some of their puzzles to fix things or tweak element behaviour, so some of these demos won't end up working for the final version of this hold.

I have mastered this hold, so everything should be here.

I am still uploading the LP of this, but I figured these demos would be more useful to architects than a video of me failing to do the obvious thing for 20 minutes. The LP will continue to be uploaded at a rate of 1 video per day (27 episodes in total) but this also provides more immediate feedback for architects who want to be fixing things.

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02-28-2017 at 09:49 AM
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Lucky Luc
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
I see your point about historical correctness, and it's why I've been kind of hesitant to change something about my entries in the past, but some of my rooms were broken in a pretty bad way. I've decided to keep the rooms as they are, but add challenges where I felt like it would benefit the room. I think that's an acceptable compromise.

There's also that telefragging bug mauvebutterfly found during his playthrough, but I don't think there's a way to avoid it that covers all edge cases. It really only matters in that one room anyway. I guess as long as we don't have "Wait for Weapon", the safest way for architects to handle it would be not to use other sworded entities in rooms with pixies at all.

EDIT: Sure, list of changed rooms: 2N2E, 4N, 4N1E, 4N2E

[Last edited by Lucky Luc at 02-28-2017 04:10 PM]
02-28-2017 at 12:04 PM
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Doom
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
Don't think I need to make any script changes.

Several rooms in my entry had unintended solutions. Most of them aren't too bad or possibly even improve the room. However 2S1E could be solved with very little interaction with the custom element.

Made some fixes and small playability improvements to this one room.

Also I was thinking maybe some/most/all rooms in the entry should be marked unrequired to avoid an unreasonable difficulty spike when it comes to conquering the full hold.

[Last edited by Doom at 02-28-2017 02:36 PM]
02-28-2017 at 01:35 PM
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Xindaris
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Notice which I should've given earlier:
Because I'm copying rooms over and not levels in order to keep as many during-voting demos functional as I can, please also list which rooms are actually changed. That will help lots.

Thanks for posting things so far.

I'm a little dubious about putting in the "new" Two Headed Serpents Which Respect Invisibility into this compilation; it's fine if you want the improved version elsewhere but...

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 02-28-2017 03:52 PM]
02-28-2017 at 03:49 PM
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blorx1
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I'd encourage including the new ones mostly because if I do bother to use them in a project elsewhere, we probably shouldn't just keep two versions of the script floating around because I can't be bothered to change the graphics.

I consider the changes relatively trivial to the two rooms it affects, if someone disagrees, then we may want to leave the original version.

As for the rooms I changed, I mostly added checkpoints, and wasn't keeping a list, so don't bother changing those, if you don't feel like it.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 03-01-2017 05:27 AM]
03-01-2017 at 05:26 AM
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quote:
blorx1 wrote: I consider the changes relatively trivial to the two rooms it affects, if someone disagrees, then we may want to leave the original version.


I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter, but maybe as a compromise, leave a scroll or something describing the original behavior and explanation of the change?

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03-01-2017 at 02:19 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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For my entry, Horticulturalist's Headache, I implemented a weapon token for my custom weapon. Currently it could be used to switch between briar seeds, sword, and all the other standard weapons.

I would like to make a new version of this token that switches between sword, briar seeds, and all the other custom weapons from the contest.

In the end it would work for these weapons:
Sword
Briar Seeds
Rocket
Net
Firetraps

Have I forgotten any of the custom weapons? Darts were excluded since they are picked up individually rather than through a token. Likewise, hockey pucks are room architecture rather than weapons.

The purpose of such a token would be to allow Beethro to change weapons without it being hardcoded into the room or into a character role. It would also allow architects to design rooms switching between weapons, so you could build a net+rocket room, for example.

I would like input from the architects and anyone who played through their entries regarding how to implement certain issues. For instance, how should the number of firetraps be limited? What happens to an enemy in a net if you switch to another weapon? Etc.

Graphics would also be nice, although I can probably make them myself if you are okay with them being the same style as the briar weapon token in my entry.

Finally, I had two issues with my token that I would like input on. First, is there a way to get it to play the sound normal weapon tokens play? Second, is there a way to have it be right-clickable without being an obstacle for monster movement? As it stands, right-clicking just says "floor" currently.

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03-02-2017 at 03:43 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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I've made a few fixes to my entry. Sorry Xindaris, but I'll need every single room to be replaced.

The biggest change is that I've moved the special character governing briar root placement up in the turn order, so roots are now placed before monster movement. This makes the briar root feel like a weapon that is used on the player's turn. The scroll in 1E was also changed to reflect the new behaviour.

This change should not invalidate any of the demos I posted earlier in this thread, since the only way an old demo would be different is if the player tried to place a briar root, failed because a monster moved into the space during that turn, and then continued playing from that position instead of using backspace or restarting from a checkpoint.

Other changes just involve tightening up some of my scripting:
- flush speech was added to 1E in case the player kills 22nd horticulturalist, so that she doesn't keep talking after her death
- the challenge "Crop Circle" was fixed in 2E and should now be awarded upon challenge completion
- the challenge "Herbal Remedy" in 1N4E was given a more robust script and should now more accurately check that all citizens are still alive

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03-05-2017 at 10:41 AM
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Doom
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quote:
mauvebutterfly wrote:
- the challenge "Herbal Remedy" in 1N4E was given a more robust script and should now more accurately check that all citizens are still alive
I'm assuming the "Citizen Located" speech was used for testing and shouldn't be visible in the final room. I can still blow up a citizen and get a silly "now I can't get back" line by the wrong citizen. Challenge is getting awarded only if citizens are alive though, so that's all mostly harmless.

Watched mauvebutterfly's videos of my entry and got some really good feedback. Particularly interesting was the note about stunnability, because that's something I've been thinking about before. I agree that the element would play better and be more consistent with others if it was stunnable, and think that the imperative should be removed for future versions of the element (contest level is fine as is, of course). I'm still thinking about what the perfect rules should be like...

One downside is that it becomes much easier to get multiple different entities next to a doppelganger. Which is really why I did the unstunnability thing - to minimize the effect of adjacent-tile-checking-order on solutions. It's especially quirky if the player can survive on some adjacent tiles and not others, and I'd like to avoid that ever becoming a factor in puzzles.

Possible solutions:
A) Check all adjacent tiles for the player first, then other elements in the regular way. Bad because it's creating exceptions to a simple rule.
B) Make it non-lethal to the player. Then standing on the "correct" side suddenly doesn't matter anymore. Doesn't hurt puzzle potential that much either. DL:3S wouldn't work anymore, but the other ideas in my entry would still be implementable in one way or another. I'm liking this approach the most at the moment.
03-07-2017 at 12:52 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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Wow, that's embarrassing. Okay, I've updated the hold again, to fix 1N4E. No other rooms were changed.

I have removed the debugging text. I also fixed the other speech issue that Doom mentioned.

Finally, I had some MyScript variables I added in the previous fix that weren't being reset to -9999, so I fixed those. They didn't cause any issues for me by not being reset (although I didn't really test for such issues), but I thought it best to reset them anyway just in case.

Again, only 1N4E has been changed since the previous update, but if you (Xindaris) haven't downloaded the previous update yet, just ignore it and use this one. All rooms need to be replaced.

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03-08-2017 at 02:22 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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I'm a bit mixed on changing the doppelganger. I liked the fact that they were deadly to step next to, and that roach queen puzzle was really cool. Despite that, though, I would be in support of changes that overall improve the element. Especially if it means I get to solve rooms with them again in the future. (Please use this element again!)

Non-lethal seems like the best bet. How about making them act differently when a brain is in the room (similar to how flowers were implemented) so that they attack only when a brain is present, since that would allow for both sets of behaviour. I'm not sure that it's worth the effort, and that roach queen puzzle would be hell with a brain in the mix. Just a (probably bad) idea that I thought I'd throw out there.

Regardless though, I think that "attack before transform" might actually be the more intuitive rule than "check in order and have a safe spot for the player in certain configurations." In fact, that's how I thought the element worked.

I assume you know this, but since your previous message didn't explicitly state this, I thought I'd share some testing results: your current implementation already has the blind spot of A.



In the image, Beethro steps orthogonally to touch the doppelganger. In the left case, the doppelganger kills Beethro. In the right case, the doppelganger transforms into a roach.

edit: Is there a good way to embed images directly into the post? I used to use photobucket, but they seem to have discontinued that service, so I'd like an alternative way to do this.

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[Last edited by mauvebutterfly at 03-09-2017 02:01 PM]
03-08-2017 at 02:28 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (+1)  
quote:
mauvebutterfly wrote:
edit: Is there a good way to embed images directly into the post? I used to use photobucket, but they seem to have discontinued that service, so I'd like an alternative way to do this.


Right click on the image download link in your post and "copy link location" or whatever option your browser gives you to copy the address of the link. Then edit your post and click on the image insert thing and paste the url. (or use the img and /img tags directly)



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[Last edited by Insoluble at 03-08-2017 04:14 PM]
03-08-2017 at 04:13 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (+1)  
There's also an [attachment] tag that lets you do the same thing without needing to edit your post.
03-08-2017 at 04:52 PM
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Xindaris
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Ugh I haven't been on top of this the past week or two, sorry.

Two-Headed Serpents: To me, 2N1W looks like you may as well have just removed the room entirely, not at all a trivial change. If you're absolutely sure you want this change, and you have definitely tested that your alterations to make it work did not break or bug out anything, I guess I can make it and leave a note in the hub myself about how they used to be.

Horticulturalist's Headache: Since I have indeed removed the level and (I believe) all relevant characters before pasting in the new version, and since you're the maker of the level, would you mind producing a new demo set for the level?

Hub: I've not made a lot of salient changes yet, but I would appreciate an opinion on 1N3E (zip there via editor of course), specifically if it's simple enough or too much trouble to figure out. The post-level-finished hub rooms are supposed to be really easy since the player passes through them before returning to the hub proper with credit for finishing that level.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 03-11-2017 05:38 PM]
03-11-2017 at 05:37 PM
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blorx1
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Oh, I think I see what I overlooked for 2N1W. Change the firetrap to a south facing force arrow and the room goes back to working the way I wanted, more or less. I'll note that yes, the room does play differently now, but I think unbraining the construct vs moving away from the brain to take advantage of ignoring invisibility are more or less equivalent in most cases.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 03-11-2017 06:52 PM]
03-11-2017 at 06:47 PM
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There are probably some things I can do to improve the puck script (feel free to give me suggestions), but I'm happy to leave everything as is for the compilation.

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03-12-2017 at 09:16 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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I just tried loading the new version of the hold in order to make new demos for Horticulturalist's Headache, but the hub level doesn't seem to be connected properly, so I couldn't access the element level.

I'm not sure how compatible demos are if I start messing around in the editor, so I'm holding off for now. I'll definitely remake the demo pack for my entry once things seem to be working.

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03-18-2017 at 03:24 AM
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Xindaris
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Ugh, sorry, I forgot to set the stairs correctly. Should be fixed now.

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03-18-2017 at 03:19 PM
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It turns out Rockets had a terrible bug where the explosions would explode onto closed doors.

This hold update has a new and better script with correct explosions.

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03-19-2017 at 11:06 AM
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Xindaris
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I was able to place in the new rocket/launcher scripts without breaking demos or altering exits/entrances in this case. Hooray!

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 03-19-2017 11:29 PM]
03-19-2017 at 11:29 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (+2)  
Here's an updated set of demos for the most recent version of Horticulturalist's Headache as in the compilation hold at the time of posting this. This demo set includes all challenges for the level.

On a side note, Chaco commented on one of my videos that the intended solution for Swampy Basement 1S4W only used 6 of the 16 mirrors provided. I just replayed it to confirm for myself, and...

C h a l l e n g e !
 Only use 3 of the 16 provided mirrors. 


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03-22-2017 at 09:12 AM
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That's better than me. I used 4 in my first try.

Hmm, time to figure out where I can trim off a mirror...
03-22-2017 at 02:22 PM
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That's actually a pretty fun room to find alternate solutions for. Found another variant after experimenting more.
quote:
Only use 3 of the 16 provided mirrors.
C h a l l e n g e !
 Only use 1 of the 16 provided mirrors 

03-22-2017 at 03:00 PM
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icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
Since we're doing this kind of thing, I've updated Koopa Bros' Fortress so the Bombette no longer explodes on walls, closed doors or obstacles. In 2N1W and 3N1W, I changed walls to pits so the solutions still work.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-10-2017 04:56 AM]
03-22-2017 at 04:09 PM
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Xindaris
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Update Posted, let this topic live again! Changes:
-All requested changes should be made now, including the two headed serpents and koopa bros behavior changes. Let me know if something is missing.
-Each scroll now lists the contest placement of the entry in addition to its title, and said placement also has a room decoration to show it off as well.
-A few more of the "hub puzzles" have been added and those rooms with hub puzzles have been modified to have just one stairs. I still need feedback on all hub puzzles. (The unidart one is not finished)
-An excuse plot has been added to the start of the hold, along with a new title for the hub: Temporal Nexus. I seek opinions on this also.

Other business: Permission
The following entrants gave permission to use their elements in the submission thread: Doom's Doppelgangers, Chaco's leeches, Nuntar and Insoluble's Bombette (I think; the post was since deleted). Whether you mentioned giving permission there or not, I would like confirmation from everyone that it's ok to use your element in other places, so I can make a note of such permission in an obvious place in this compilation, maybe even in the hold description. Also it'll be helpful for some people to know this.

Other business: The token stuff
This is for mauvebutterfly specifically. Could I please have a hold with all the weaponesque token stuff graphicwise and scriptingwise bundled together in it to poke around a bit with, in case I decide to attempt a "final exam" level or room or something using multiple elements from the contest for after the completion of the hub via the entries?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 05-10-2017 05:37 AM]
05-10-2017 at 05:36 AM
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blorx1
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 888
Registered: 07-18-2009
IP: Logged
icon Re: Custom Element Contest Compilation (0)  
I assumed permission was given by entering, but w/e.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.
05-10-2017 at 08:32 AM
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