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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Finding the First Truth (Summer 2011 Smitemasters' Selection)
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8.7/10 (35 votes)
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Author Name:Chaco
Submitted By:Chaco
Hold Name:Finding the First Truth
Theme:Summer 2011 Smitemasters' Selection
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:14
Number of Rooms:153
Number of Monsters:907
Version:DROD: The City Beneath (3.2)
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Hold Karma:18 (+18 / -0)
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mrimer
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+1)  
I'm guessing when people refer to irrational exuberance in the voices, they most likely mean DiMono's utterly exasperated guy.

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
08-20-2011 at 04:09 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (0)  
west.logan wrote:
I've seen this comment (or related ones about exuberance) multiple times and I am intensely curious. What lines are we talking about here? What character?
In two secret rooms on the Guard level, there are guards who speak with great deal of enthusiasm and inflection, both of which could have been a little toned down, IMHO.
08-20-2011 at 05:52 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+1)  
I thought they were doing that to be funny...

Switching to a more positive note, my favorite voice acting in this hold is RabidChild's First Chemist. I'd love to meet that character again. :)
08-20-2011 at 09:19 PM
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Chaco
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icon FtFT reader mail reply session (+4)  
Blondbeard wrote:
Why didn't I enjoy this more? :?

Click here to view the secret text

(mid-way through the hold plot spoilers)
Click here to view the secret text


Blondbeard:
Was Jobus expecting Beethro to show up, and if so, why didn't he just give Beethro the scrolls?
I'm not really sure whether Jobus was expecting Beethro to show up or not. It sounds like in the beginning Jobus thought Beethro had just come in off the High Path, a few miles from even making it to the City. But there was plenty of time for Jobus to do stuff offscreen while Beethro was solving those first four levels...

How would Jobus have given Beethro the scrolls? It doesn't look like he has a sword of any kind, and I'm pretty sure you need a sword to solve most of those rooms and open the blue doors. Maybe he wanted to save a blue key for later...

Tahnan wrote:
I agree with whoever it was above who said that the post-puzzle plot rooms seemed to have cutscenes that lasted forever; maybe it was just the really long pauses.
This was my fault as the builder of the cutscenes; there was a lot of information to put in the hold and I didn't split it up as neatly as I could - the conversation in Egress Level: 1N1E could have been split into many smaller cutscenes in many different rooms during travel, for instance. I know that a couple of times I got somewhat irritated debugging some later parts of cutscenes and having to listen to the beginning parts; some of you may have noticed I put some "breakpoints" kind of inconsistently in those rooms.

Part of the time we spent just before releasing the hold was spent ironing out the pauses in some of the cutscenes; I'm pretty sure at some point it was understood that it was "good enough".

I'll try to come up with a better solution if I find myself in a situation requiring a lot of dialogue in the future.

the first thing that struck Tahnan, plotwise
That's an interesting guess... ;)

the second thing that struck Tahnan, plotwise
I have no comment, you'll have to ask Mike a bit more directly about that one. :)

I will tell you that I wrote that set of lines pretty early in the script-writing process and it survived until the end.

various people who thought that some of the guards, particularly in the secret rooms, were overly exuberent
My personal opinion on the matter is that I thought half the fun of having voice actors was having them read lines in exaggerated fashions - some people who played The City Beneath may well remember the various negotiators our negotiator friend spoke with in enacting a new law. I liked the guard takes just fine, but I can see now how some other people might not have liked them.

I usually try to put checkpoints in rooms with voiced lines set up so that if you restart to any reasonable checkpoint, you never have to hear the voiced lines again unless you restart the whole room. I hope some people appreciated that in the Guard secret rooms.

--

If these are the most concerning complaints people have come up with, I'm honored.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 08-21-2011 03:25 AM]
08-21-2011 at 03:24 AM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: FtFT reader mail reply session (+1)  
Chaco wrote:
I usually try to put checkpoints in rooms with voiced lines set up so that if you restart to any reasonable checkpoint, you never have to hear the voiced lines again unless you restart the whole room.
I've just learned to be really quick on the space bar when necessary. (Hellooooo, Odd Jobs!)

If I really wanted to find things to complain about, I certainly could. (For instance, the helpful colored lights on some of the doors actually just ended up confusing me as to whether they were yellow doors or trapdoor gates or....) But there's no reason to do so, because really, it's a fine hold, top to bottom.
08-21-2011 at 07:10 AM
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martz
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (0)  
Just to clarify my exuberance comment, I didn't really intend this as a criticism although it could be taken as such. Primarily it was triggered by continuous restarts of Guard Level: 1N1E. The only voice that grated in this hold was Jobus but I do enjoy listening to the various vocal talents in holds and I love the TCB music as well, and it's quite easy to turn the sound off if you do get fed up with it.

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Progress - Gavin G
08-22-2011 at 01:43 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (0)  
1N1E didn't bother me other than it's one of two times in the hold I've seen someone say 'You're not smart enough for this room' and Beethro says 'AM TOO'.

1S1E was just

uhhhhhh
08-22-2011 at 08:30 PM
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disoriented
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (0)  
Backtracking issue? I was playing through the Exit Level and found the Crumbly Level. After completing the Crumbly Level, I can't return to where I was before.
Click here to view the secret text


EDIT: Never mind, as pointed out earlier, you can
Click here to view the secret text


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34th Skywatcher

Best to PM me, since I might miss your message on CaravelNet chat.

[Last edited by disoriented at 01-12-2012 05:23 AM]
01-12-2012 at 05:14 AM
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Pinnacle
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+4)  
Conquered.


Stats, for people who like those
Moves: 110258
Kills: 1854
Deaths: 408 (I know I know don't judge me)
Time: 10:21:40
Secrets found: 10

Impressions on the levels
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Overall, excellent hold, 7.5 brains, 10 fun (rounded up to 10) and I definitely want to try some other Chaco holds after mastering attempting to master this one.

____________________________
Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
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06-05-2013 at 04:32 AM
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komachi
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+2)  
Conquered with 25% of secrets done :).
Overall excellent lynchpin and difficult rooms that aren't really hard. I really enjoyed the mimic and decoy level (especially the scroll in 1N 1E) , and the story that jump into TSS (can't wait to play it).

I killed the slayer in 3S before open the gates because I think was faster for me before do trial and error in that roomO:-.

7.5 for brains and 10 for fun.
04-28-2014 at 04:39 PM
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Penwielder
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+2)  
Iíve finally come back and mastered this one. Itís everything I would expect out of a hold from Chaco, which is to say thereís lots of good stuff in here, all very well themed, all conceptually interesting, and almost never quite as hard as it looks (except for that secret room on the hidden level). The collection of slayer puzzles is definitely most interesting one Iíve seen, and the theme of the Exit Level was quite unique, but for me the best of the best in here was certainly the hidden level. I also liked the brief return to The City at the beginning and the story leading into TSS.

Iíll give this a ten for fun and seven brains for difficulty.

The only thing I really disliked in here was the poor timing in the cutscenes at the end of the hold. I really hope this doesnít happen in TSS.

EDIT: For clarity's sake, I think I mostly just mean Egress Level: 1N1E--notice the long pauses (other than when characters are moving, which is fine).

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Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-29-2014 09:19 PM]
04-29-2014 at 05:24 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+1)  
Penwielder wrote:
The only thing I really disliked in here was the poor timing in the cutscenes at the end of the hold. I really hope this doesnít happen in TSS.
Yikes! Sorry, that was probably my fault. I think we have cut scene timing issues all ironed out in TSS.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 04-29-2014 07:43 PM]
04-29-2014 at 07:43 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+1)  
It was probably my fault, too - I don't remember who exactly did the final pass on editing those ending cutscenes, but it might have been me.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed the hold. :)

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04-29-2014 at 10:04 PM
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PMIT
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+2)  
Before playing this hold, the only rooms I'd played from Chaco were from a few contest compilations and his level in Way Forward. I remember being impressed by them, but this full hold was a pleasure to play from start to finish. I'd say this is on average about equal with or harder than most of the most difficult parts of TCB, though the puzzle styles of these two holds are significantly different. Figuring out how to tackle each room will probably take some thought, but the rooms are inviting enough to encourage you to give each one a few tries even if you're not totally sure about what to do - chances are it'll help you figure out how to solve it. As for the story content, I'll just say that I'm excited to see where it heads in TSS!

More comments:
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I'm definitely going to be excited for any other Chaco holds I play, and great job to him, the testers and the Caravel Team for putting together this SmS.:thumbsup

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05-09-2014 at 03:59 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (0)  
Wait, you haven't played more of Chaco's holds? Get on that!

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05-09-2014 at 04:45 PM
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karlpopper
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (0)  
help me out with this: I know this information is here on the forums .... but I have trouble finding it.

Who authored each of the rooms in the Official Canon?

Or, how can I find out the answer?

I know I've mentioned the crossword comparison before: it feels the same to me, I sometimes want to know who I'm up against.

Edit: this is the post I failed to find earlier for the TCB authorship
Oneiromancer wrote: TCB room authors

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[Last edited by karlpopper at 05-10-2014 07:24 PM : TCB ref]
05-09-2014 at 08:11 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+2)  
karlpopper wrote:
Who authored each of the rooms in the Official Canon?

Or, how can I find out the answer?
There is this thing called "credits" that is included in every hold, and tells you who made the hold.

For this hold it's easy, it's all Chaco's work (except for the rooms that we've copied straight from TCB, of course.) Mike and I were mostly writing dialogues and helping out when it's needed, but as you're only concerned about the great puzzles, they're all Chaco's work. :)
I know I've mentioned the crossword comparison before: it feels the same to me, I sometimes want to know who I'm up against.
But unlike crosswords, when a team is working on a hold, you get all kinds of interactions and "synergies" because everyone is commenting on each other's room. And it usually makes the rooms better.

For example, in Advanced Concepts, we played each other's holds and improved on them. (If you don't believe me, just go back and play it and read some of the scrolls I left there.) So for the larger holds, it's really a team effort, and that really shows.

So I wouldn't want to pinpoint it to a single individual in the larger holds.

= = = = = = =


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[Last edited by Tim at 05-10-2014 02:01 PM]
05-10-2014 at 01:17 PM
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logicGamesFan
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icon Re: Finding the First Truth (+5)  
I just completed this hold (post-mastered + solved optional levels). First of all I will note that I didn't play that many of DROD content: only DROD 1 to 4 main holds and Flood Warning before this one. Because of that, I might have incorrectly classified some ideas here as original.

I must say that not only did I immensely enjoyed the hold, but I also think it's the best level set I played in any game EVER! When there are moments in a logic game when you just have to take a moment to say to yourself "WOW", you know you're playing something special. In this hold pretty much every second room was like that for me, either because for phenomenal architecture, original room ideas or just tricky and rewarding solutions.

I bought this SMS after taking a look at TSS demo. My expectations were low when I saw that there are dedicated Slayer and guard levels. I'm not a big fan of trying to figure out obscure movement details. However, few rooms focused on those (hardest of those were in secrets) and instead I got see how fun the manipulation for advanced enemies can be, especially in the wisp puzzles. This trend continued with some great utilization of stairs and crumbly walls in later levels, among other elements. You will need know some details, especially o guard moves priories and path-finding. I ended up taking 2-3 hints because of that, but this reliance on details also allowed for some great rooms, so I'm kind of split on this. Overall, I guess I simply enjoy Chaco's style of room building: high number of orb / pressure plates / gates, complicated layouts requiring a lot of planning but also very rewarding to see being played out and solved.

The architecture was splendid. The levels layout, rooms layout and the non-linear twisted progression with a lot of secrets. I also loved the various takes on rooms reuse. Those induced 2-3 variations on virtually the same room, progressively more complicated or solving the exactly same rooms 2-3 times from different "angles" (don't want to explain more to avoid spoilers). I can only imagine how much work went into preparing those. This hold, along with Flood Warning, really showcases why preparing DROD content is called architecture: building something both functional, often very constrained, that is also so visually appealing.

On the negatives: I was expecting more from the story element. Most of the exposition seemed to be cluttered at the holds very end and would be better to have it more interweave with the puzzles. The acting wasn't that great, but it really doesn't matter that much for me (and unlike some other people here, I really loved dramatic guards lines :) ). The overall voice quality itself really could be better, though. As for the puzzles: Analyzing some rooms can get tedious, but I think most of it will be neutralized with DROD 5 gate reverted checks (for orbs / pressure plates triggers), so I recommend playing in the newest engine. Again, There were 2-3 rooms with slayer and guard manipulation, that I really wasn't a fan of, but those were secret ones, and at the end still fairly fun to solve.

The hold truly showed me how versatile and deep DROD really is. After easily 200+ hours spent playing this series, this set pretty much felt like a brand new game. DROD really has more variety between different architects works that some gaming genres between games. I must admit that I'm really stingy when it comes to buying games and wasn't sure if SMS will be worth it. After playing FtFT however, I just must try out other DLC content. Once again big thanks to Chaco for possibly the best gaming experience I ever had.

My score:
8 brains
11 overall (rounded to 10)
07-30-2014 at 02:31 PM
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