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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (A multiple question poll)
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RankEntryAverageStandard Deviation
1Green Is The Colour7.84615384615381.8747780933775
2The Guardian's Treasure7.76923076923082.00590843237
3Blorn Bridge7.61538461538461.211385826771
3The Middle Plane7.61538461538461.9029718272082
5Palschkeep Thwettlebep7.15384615384621.5112986695683
6DROD Tutorial6.84615384615382.2134607030674
7Confusing Hold 26.53846153846152.2054263364356
8The Exterminator Chronicles6.46153846153851.906078722056
Blorn Bridge
12345678910
Average Vote 7.6153846153846
Standard Deviation 1.211385826771

Confusing Hold 2
12345678910
Average Vote 6.5384615384615
Standard Deviation 2.2054263364356

DROD Tutorial
12345678910
Average Vote 6.8461538461538
Standard Deviation 2.2134607030674

Green Is The Colour
12345678910
Average Vote 7.8461538461538
Standard Deviation 1.8747780933775

Palschkeep Thwettlebep
12345678910
Average Vote 7.1538461538462
Standard Deviation 1.5112986695683

The Exterminator Chronicles
12345678910
Average Vote 6.4615384615385
Standard Deviation 1.906078722056

The Guardian's Treasure
12345678910
Average Vote 7.7692307692308
Standard Deviation 2.00590843237

The Middle Plane
12345678910
Average Vote 7.6153846153846
Standard Deviation 1.9029718272082
Total Votes 22 100%
Poster Message
Mattcrampy
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icon Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Much like a dessert, these 8 holds are sweet. Play each hold for a maximum of one hour before you decide its score - you can go back and play longer after you vote. (It's okay to cut your playtime short, I won't tell.) If you've played these holds before, feel free to carry your vote over.

You should give each hold a rating based on how 'fun' it was, and on how much of the hold you think you got to see. If you completed the hold, great! Mark it out of ten. If you think you saw half, mark it out of five. If you got stuck on the first room, well...

If you are the author of the hold, please vote 10 for it. Please refrain from voting 1 for the other holds, because we'll catch you.

The top-rated hold when the poll closes will receive 100 rank points and be crowned the Iron Chef. The second-highest rated hold will receive 50 rank points and a consolation, while the third-highest rated hold will receive 25 rank points and a doggy bag.

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03-17-2008 at 11:59 PM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
All of the holds in the final.

Individual holds can be downloaded by clicking on their names:
Blorn Bridge
Confusing Hold 2
DROD Tutorial
Green Is The Color
Palschkeep Thwettlebep
The Exterminator Chronicles
The Guardian's Treasure
The Middle Plane

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03-18-2008 at 12:04 AM
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Remlin
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Here's my feedback for the final round holds. I'm not going to give my scores because I scaled things to use the full 1-10 voting range, and I don't want to offend the architects I ended up giving very low scores to. I finished everything within an hour so nobody lost points there, but I did give small penalties to the holds that took much less than an hour.
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03-18-2008 at 05:45 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
I'd just want to point out that none of the serpent rooms in The Middle Plane are reqiered. A lot of people seemed to miss this while voting for the Tortilini holds. There are only four rooms which are required.
03-18-2008 at 06:27 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+2)  
My thoughts about the holds:

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03-18-2008 at 07:09 AM
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techant
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
I voted: Except for The Middle Plane, which I promise to correct, my votes remained the same.

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03-18-2008 at 10:32 AM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
Remlin wrote:
Click here to view the secret text
Aww, how could I miss that? :selftwak

Mattcrampy, is it ok that you use this version for the hold compilation?

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[Last edited by Rheb at 03-18-2008 03:45 PM]
03-18-2008 at 03:44 PM
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Rheb
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+2)  
Well, here's my comments on the holds. :)

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03-18-2008 at 04:14 PM
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techant
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Remlin wrote:
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Blondbeard wrote:
My thoughts about the holds:
Click here to view the secret text
Rheb wrote:
Well, here's my comments on the holds. :)
Click here to view the secret text

My reply:
Thank you all for your comments. I am glad one of you found it fun. Personally I was so excited that for the first time one of my hold entries made it to a runoff. I feel like I am getting better maybe a few more years and I can actually make a real hold.

My thoughts about my own hold:
Click here to view the secret text


I also would like to fix an issue with my hold for the compilation. :w00t

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DROD RPG Released!! You must try it out it is Great!!
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[Last edited by techant at 03-18-2008 10:33 PM]
03-18-2008 at 10:22 PM
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bflatjeff
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+3)  
First of all, congratulations to all architects in the final. I found something to enjoy about all your entires.
My comments:
Click here to view the secret text

Thanks again, all!
BbJ

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03-19-2008 at 04:34 AM
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techant
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
bflatjeff wrote:
First of all, congratulations to all architects in the final. I found something to enjoy about all your entires.
My comments:
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My Reply:
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DROD RPG Released!! You must try it out it is Great!!
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[Last edited by techant at 03-19-2008 07:46 AM]
03-19-2008 at 07:29 AM
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techant
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File: The Exterminator Chronicles fixed.hold (21.6 KB)
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Mattcrampy, is it ok that you use this version for the hold compilation?
I have posted my fixed hold, which solved the issues that others raised. I hope it is used in the compilation as it will be more fun. I have attached it here. If you want I can put a scroll in it saying it was fixed, and is different in these ways from the original entry.

Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by techant at 03-19-2008 07:53 AM]
03-19-2008 at 07:49 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Some author notes on my entry (don't read if you don't want to) :

Click here to view the secret text


Also, Rheb, Blondbeard, I'm personally intrigued in why Palschkeep Thwettlebep didn't catch either of your interest. Did you not enjoy the Halph element, the puzzles of the hold, the cutscenes, or was it something else? I'm always trying to improve, but feedback like "I don't know why, but this really wasn't my type of puzzles..." doesn't give me much to go on... :?

In summary, I think I did a better job this year than last year. I might not win anything, but I'm personally satisfied with the job I did, and happy both that I got to play a lot of high-quality, fun holds and that people liked playing my high-quality, fun hold :)

(Also, I'm wondering whether or not I should fix all the various unintended solutions and other issues in my hold and post it here now, or just wait until after the poll is over before sending it to the compiler or something)

(Jeebus this post is a lot longer than I thought it would be)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-19-2008 07:56 PM]
03-19-2008 at 07:55 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
Remlin wrote:
I'm not going to give my scores because I scaled things to use the full 1-10 voting range, and I don't want to offend the architects I ended up giving very low scores to.
You know, that's kind of silly, when there end up only being three holds with votes below 4...

Actually, I don't really cotton to this whole "use the whole range" thing, myself. There's no sense in which the hold I liked least out of these eight deserved a "1". And when I look at my hold's votes, I don't want to have to think, "Did I get a 10 because my hold is stellar? Or did I get a 10 because, although my hold isn't fit to line the cage of a pet wubba, at least it was better than the other seven here?"

That's just me, though.
03-19-2008 at 11:19 PM
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Remlin
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
Tahnan wrote:You know, that's kind of silly, when there end up only being three holds with votes below 4...
Those weren't all from me.

When I voted, the hold I liked best got a 9 point advantage over the hold I liked least. When you voted, your favorite only got a 4 point advantage. Why should my opinion count for more than double yours?

But obviously you can't limit my voting range, so the solution is to expand yours. To me, using the whole range is just as much a logical necessity as giving yourself a 10.
03-20-2008 at 12:21 AM
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bflatjeff
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
Chaco wrote about me:

Click here to view the secret text

I certainly appreciate your hold-building skills, and enjoyed your original Chaco's hold, and your other contest entries. I'm currently working (sporadically) on Terrakept Resonant, and I'll keep working on your entry here. My comment mainly meant that I found your puzzles too difficult as an hour's diversion- they take (and reward) more time and care, particularly for optimizing. I nearly completed (in its simplest fashion) your entry, just couldn't do any of the 3W rooms, which I swear are impossible :) .
Regarding the Halph character, did you consider leaving him out of rooms where his use wasn't part of your intended solution (as bits of JtRH do)? The fact that he was always there made me wonder whether he was needed for all the rooms. Maybe help your player out a bit there? Or not, it's up to you obviously. Maybe you want us to ponder whether Halph is helpful in each case.

BbJ

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[Last edited by bflatjeff at 03-20-2008 02:33 AM]
03-20-2008 at 02:30 AM
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techant
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
CharoChaco :blush

Below is my original comments about your hold Palschkeep Thwettlebep by Chaco:
Techant
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Some additional comments:
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[Last edited by techant at 03-22-2008 07:22 AM]
03-20-2008 at 03:20 AM
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RoboBob3000
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
I didn't know Charo was an active member here. :)

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03-20-2008 at 02:55 PM
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Pneh
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
Yeah, Chaco's secret is revealed...

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03-21-2008 at 09:52 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Chaco wrote:
Some author notes on my entry (don't read if you don't want to) :

Click here to view the secret text


Also, Rheb, Blondbeard, I'm personally intrigued in why Palschkeep Thwettlebep didn't catch either of your interest. Did you not enjoy the Halph element, the puzzles of the hold, the cutscenes, or was it something else? I'm always trying to improve, but feedback like "I don't know why, but this really wasn't my type of puzzles..." doesn't give me much to go on... :?

(Jeebus this post is a lot longer than I thought it would be)
I realize that. Hmm... I've given the issue quite some thought now, and have furthermore mastered the hold. Unfortunatly the rooms I liked best (1W, 2W and 3W) was among the rooms I didn't play last time. It doesn't matter though. I still would have given the hold a vote of seven.

I furthermore think that Halph is a bit of a cloggy element. It feels a bit tedius moving him around, especially if you have to restart the room several times.

Some more specific feedback: The first cutscene was a bit too long. You could have skipped the middle part without loosing any story elements, and it kind of bugged me when Ralph started speaking about the famous Chaco, whom I knew nothing about. Don't asume that the reader is well aquantained with your previous works (I think this is a mistak Tolkien did in LotR, where the book starts with a birthday party for a rather stiff, old man, unless you already know and love the character).

I really do like the freedom to choose though.

1S1W: Bleh! I was so tired of this room! I didn't like it in Magic Show 2, and I wasn't very happy to find it here. It's an elegant room, but I find it too tedius, and I had tried it out too many times in Magic Show 2 (the only room I didn't solve there). I solved it here though, and that was a plus ;)

2S1W: This might be the worst room in the hold. Just kill the monsters and park Halph on the preasure plate. There might be some intended solution that is a bit trickier, but that's how I did it.

1S2W: Meh! Cool idea, but a bit bulky execution. It's so easy that the only element (for me) in playing a room like this is that you might press the wrong button some time, or miss movement priorities. I think this rooom would have been great as a qite fast cutscene though :)

1S3W: I like this room, but: it would have saved me much frustration if the entrance to the enclosed area had been as close as possible to an edge, and if there had been some more checkpoints. I had to redo the beginning some times.

2S3W: Cool room! I would have removed the westmost door, though. It only made the room a bit more tedius, and not more difficult.

1W: The room I liked best. I was a bit surprised by Halphs running algorithm though. It felt a bit unpredictable.

2W: Also cool. A bit tedius, though. I would have put an arrow pointing E on 7,16.

3W: Really nice idea, but a bit tedius. What's up with the really long fuse, for example? I might have done this room in an uninteded way. I used two golems, and Halph to block the guards from attacking me from behind.

All in all I liked the hold, but I like many things. It didn't catch my interest to stand out among the things I like to do, and I probably wouldn't have played it just to entertain myself. I'm quite picky when it comes to DROD holds nowdays.





[Last edited by Blondbeard at 03-25-2008 08:39 AM]
03-25-2008 at 08:37 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (0)  
Blondbeard wrote:
2S1W: This might be the worst room in the hold. Just kill the monsters and park Halph on the preasure plate. There might be some intended solution that is a bit trickier, but that's how I did it.

What?!? You are correct, the intended solution is much trickier. Can I have a demo of how you pulled that off? You're supposed to save some monsters (Halph's supposed to wander off the pressure plate if you don't).

The rest of your criticism is quite valid - thank you for giving it to me.

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03-25-2008 at 10:11 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Chaco wrote:
Blondbeard wrote:
2S1W: This might be the worst room in the hold. Just kill the monsters and park Halph on the preasure plate. There might be some intended solution that is a bit trickier, but that's how I did it.

What?!? You are correct, the intended solution is much trickier. Can I have a demo of how you pulled that off? You're supposed to save some monsters (Halph's supposed to wander off the pressure plate if you don't).

The rest of your criticism is quite valid - thank you for giving it to me.
Certanly. Here's the demo.
03-25-2008 at 11:33 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Er, yes, this is a consequence of a problem I noted a couple of weeks back - the pressure plate by the briars is obviously supposed to close that open door. Unfortunately it was too late when I discovered the problem.

So, yes, I am going to need to fix up my entry some more before I send it to the compiler.

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03-25-2008 at 06:44 PM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+2)  
We have a result!

In third place, a cunningly confusing confection of novel, bite-sized puzzles. Judges noted the maze-like structure and the use of a special 'preview' track as highlights. Congratulations to Jeff_Ray's Blorn Bridge!

In second place was a scripting-heavy hold that transformed the rock golem into a fearsome new creature. Judges made mention of the usefulness of the new element and its excellent use throughout the hold. Congratulations to Dischorran's The Guardian's Treasure!

In first place was a most unique creation, containing only tarstuff. Nevertheless, out of this seemingly limiting restriction, our new Iron Chef crafted a short, very clever hold, that impressed moderate players and experts alike. Judges noted the hold's setup of the theme and subsequent subversion in the final stages, and its extremely clever substitutions for common gameplay elements such as green gates and walls. For Green Is The Color, our new Iron Chef is...

boyblue!

Thank you for playing and building, everyone.

[I've handed out rank point awards -- mrimer]

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[Last edited by mrimer at 04-08-2008 04:11 PM]
03-26-2008 at 07:17 AM
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Blondbeard
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Mattcrampy wrote:
We have a result!

In third place, a cunningly confusing confection of novel, bite-sized puzzles. Judges noted the maze-like structure and the use of a special 'preview' track as highlights. Congratulations to Jeff_Ray's Blorn Bridge!

In second place was a treasure-hunting hold with a heavy emphasis on the blind guardian. This unique, new element is well worthy of the comunitys admiration and respect. Congratulations to Dischorrans's The Guardians' Treasure!

In first place was a most unique creation, containing only tarstuff. Nevertheless, out of this seemingly limiting restriction, our new Iron Chef crafted a short, very clever hold, that impressed moderate players and experts alike. Judges noted the hold's setup of the theme and subsequent subversion in the final stages, and its extremely clever substitutions for common gameplay elements such as green gates and walls. For Green Is The Color, our new Iron Chef is...

boyblue!

Thank you for playing and building, everyone.

Fixed! (Unless the rules have gone crazy :P)
03-26-2008 at 07:45 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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Oh...my...fracking...gob...

ANOTHER THIRD PLACE TO MY TINY COLLECTION OF THIRD PLACES!

It's an honor for me to have been so appreciated this year. Usually, I'd end up close to the last place. But when I saw that I was the highest ranked level in the Ravioli league, there then was hope for a high rank. I was sure I'd finally get 1st place. Oh well, at least, I have been ranked in the Top 3.

If I remember, this might be my third 3rd place I ever earned, the others being SubTerra Contest and Technology.

Once again, thanks to anyone who gave me nice marks all along.

[/speech]

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03-26-2008 at 12:09 PM
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bflatjeff
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Keep up the good work, O similarly-named brother Jeff_Ray! I've noticed a definite improvement in your holds, from this and other contests. You're well on your way to a first place finish one day soon.
Congrats also to Dischorran and boyblue, and thanks for the fun dishes!

BbJ

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03-26-2008 at 04:18 PM
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Mattcrampy
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Oh lord, I've made a terrible mistake.

Indeed, Dischorran is our second-place winner, not Chaco. Chaco gets nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!

(P.S. May be eligible for a fully-staffed chocolate factory.)

(P.P.S. I said good day!)

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03-27-2008 at 06:54 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
(P.S. May be eligible for a fully-staffed chocolate factory.)

That's one of the best fifth-place prizes ever! When do I find out whether I'm eligible or not?

Good job to all of you. Fifth place is a great place to have among such fine holds as the top three here. With luck I might be able to appeal to a wider crowd next year and perhaps ascend among the ranks of our variously-plated Chefs. :)

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[Last edited by Chaco at 03-27-2008 10:04 AM]
03-27-2008 at 10:03 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (+1)  
Who let Diebold count the votes? Looking up top, I see that besides the standard rank points, I'm entitled to a consolation; I'd like to donate the consolation to Chaco, who may now need it more than I do.

Anyway, second place is quite an honor, given the impressive competition! I especially have to respect the variety of imaginative holds that were produced without resorting to scripting for novelty (not that there's anything wrong with scripting...-_-). This will make for a great compilation.

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03-28-2008 at 01:06 AM
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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : Holds Al Dente 2008: The Final Course (A multiple question poll)
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