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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Holds : Below Witherwood (A little of everything)
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Author Name:Roger
Submitted By:calamarain
Hold Name:Below Witherwood
Theme:A little of everything
Author's Difficulty:
Number of Levels:11
Number of Rooms:108
Number of Monsters:1936
Version:DROD: The City Beneath (3.1)
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Hold Karma:3 (+6 / -3)
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Jatopian
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I have some choice words for the people who rate difficult or easy holds lower for it. There is good reason the difficulty rating is separate and independent.

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10-19-2007 at 11:05 PM
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TFMurphy
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I don't think it's a rating based on difficulty. As far as I can guess from the stats, I think there's only one low vote, and it's a 1. The rest are 9s and 10s. (Earlier tonight, there was also a 5, I think, but that got upgraded in the last few hours)
10-20-2007 at 02:03 AM
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calamarain
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Something that's been posted on the Bugs board has made me think of something.

Those of who who've converted this hold to 3.0.0 before playing should be warned that a couple of the rooms have a different difficulty level in 3.0.0 than 3.1.54 due to the briar growth rules (re: pits) being subtly changed - Caverns 1N1E and a secret room in Castle Stores may break your demos if you upgrade version from one to another.

I may have misunderstood the changes re briars and pits, so correction if I've screwed up re: the post would be nice :)

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[Last edited by calamarain at 10-26-2007 02:11 PM]
10-26-2007 at 02:06 PM
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TFMurphy
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I think you have, I'm afraid. There's been no change to the way pits interact with briars.

The two main bug fixes were:
* An unintentional delay when the growth of one region of briar blocks the growth of another region of briar on the same turn the two regions should connect.
* A single connected region of growing briar that is only connected by an immature briar edge, and that edge being destroyed.

Now, I could see one of those affecting people, but it'd happen *VERY* rarely (due to other factors related to the bug), and you'd have to put in an awful lot of work to make it happen. So I don't believe the changes are going to really affect the two rooms you mention. The first bug is the most common one to crop up between 3.0 and 3.1.0.54, and that definitely does not affect either room.
10-26-2007 at 03:21 PM
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calamarain
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OK, that's cool. Means there's full consistency. I just wanted to be 100% sure that it wouldn't break :)

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[Last edited by calamarain at 10-26-2007 03:46 PM]
10-26-2007 at 03:45 PM
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jbluestein
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calamarain wrote:
OK, that's cool. Means there's full consistency. I just wanted to be 100% sure that it wouldn't break :)

As far as I know, the only room that's harder in 3.0 is the one with the fegundi in Mines, because in 3.0 the fegundi don't trigger checkpoints. (So it's just harder because you can't afford to make a mistake).

Josh

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10-26-2007 at 03:49 PM
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calamarain
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jbluestein wrote:
As far as I know, the only room that's harder in 3.0 is the one with the fegundi
I'm confused on this one - is it fegundoes or fegundi? Are both correct?

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10-26-2007 at 03:59 PM
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Syntax
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I thought the plural was the same as the singular - fegundo.
10-26-2007 at 04:20 PM
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Jacob
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I've been referring to them as Fegundi.

Checking the official reference articles on drod.caravelgames.com they are referred to as fegundi in the SABERS article, but fegundos in the animal life article.

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10-26-2007 at 04:27 PM
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Ezlo
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Hey now! Don't go insinuating that it isn't flawlessly consistent now.
10-26-2007 at 04:29 PM
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TFMurphy
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It's "Fegundos". Check Interlude: Negotiations: Twice South.
10-26-2007 at 04:29 PM
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calamarain
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TFMurphy wrote:
It's "Fegundos". Check Interlude: Negotiations: Twice South.
One cannot argue with TCB as canon :)

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10-26-2007 at 04:45 PM
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talund
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Quite enjoying this hold. Very creative with its introduction of the attacking wubbas and very difficult thought provoking puzzles.

I think I found an unintended easy solution to Castle Stores 2N,1W (or perhaps intended given the set up of the room). The reason I think it is unintended is that I have the #1 Score and it is 1/3 the number of moves of Rabscuttle's score. My solution involves killing off the briar very quickly.
10-26-2007 at 10:28 PM
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Rabscuttle
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If you're doing what I think you're doing, then I'm guessing its unintended.
[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 10-26-2007 10:54 PM]
10-26-2007 at 10:54 PM
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TFMurphy
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Yeah, after seeing that low move count, I went experimenting myself, and definitely unintended.

Click here to view the secret text


Unfortunately, the rules pretty much prevent it from being fixed, which is kind of a shame. It was a wonderful idea for a room. Guess we'll have to leave it for the Challenges board now.
[Last edited by TFMurphy at 10-26-2007 11:47 PM]
10-26-2007 at 11:46 PM
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calamarain
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talund wrote:
I think I found an unintended easy solution to Castle Stores 2N,1W (or perhaps intended given the set up of the room). The reason I think it is unintended is that I have the #1 Score and it is 1/3 the number of moves of Rabscuttle's score. My solution involves killing off the briar very quickly.
I'd greatly appreciate you posting a demo of the unintended solution. Obviously I can't fix it, but I'm curious to see what you did :)

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10-27-2007 at 01:10 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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calamarain wrote:
Those of who who've converted this hold to 3.0.0 before playing should be warned that a couple of the rooms have a different difficulty level in 3.0.0 than 3.1.54 ... may break your demos if you upgrade version from one to another.

Yup! As I told you on your beta board, I did make a list of all the rooms where my demos broke when upgrading from 3.0.0 to 3.1.0.54, and nothing was too terrible, except that aumtlich fuse lighting thing in Citadel 2S, which you fixed before the hold was released. Thank goodness no one will have to deal with that!

*fishes out notes*

Rooms with tunnels - In 3.1, you can't use tunnels to cheat. D'oh! I had to replay most of the tunnel rooms. In 3.0.0 you could stand on tunnels like on closed yellow doors...

Caverns 1N1E - My 3.0.0 demo broke upon converting to 3.1.0.54. I had a harder time conquering this room the second time around. Above, TFMurphy explains why it wasn't the briar's fault, so I don't know what it was.

Stores secret room with briar - I don't know why my demo broke here either. This room was not harder the second time around.

Citadel 1N2E and 1S1E - In 3.1, there are more situations in which NPC swords break mirrors, so I had to replay these rooms as well. I didn't find them more challenging in 3.1 than they were in 3.0.
[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 10-27-2007 04:25 AM]
10-27-2007 at 03:36 AM
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TFMurphy
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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
Caverns 1N1E - My 3.0.0 demo broke upon converting to 3.1.0.54. I had a harder time conquering this room the second time around. Above, TFMurphy explains why it wasn't the briar's fault, so I don't know what it was.

Stores secret room with briar - I don't know why my demo broke here either. This room was not harder the second time around.

Well, it's possible you hit upon the 2nd bug I mentioned in 3.0... but that would tend to be noticable (this is the one where you split briar into two groups by destroying a piece of edge briar, but both groups keep growing). I also remembered another change made to briar, but that has to do with briar on top of force arrows, which still doesn't affect those two rooms.

There's so many changes between 3.0 and 3.1, that it's difficult to say what would be the cause for sure without just watching both demos carefully and seeing where they diverge. Briar is a very fluid element that changes quickly, and a small difference in, say, the order that doors fall and briar grows could be enough to kill your fegundos later (especially given that both rooms you mention are based around using fegundos to tunnel through briar).

Surprised that whatever change happened made Caverns 1N1E that much harder for you though.
10-27-2007 at 05:49 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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I can't say I understand it either. :)
10-27-2007 at 06:39 AM
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talund
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File: BW Castle Stores 2N1W Victory.demo (2.2 KB)
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I've attached my demo with the unintended solution.

And it hurts to reveal my secret and have the #1 taken away by TF Murphy because he did it more efficiently. :thumbsup
[Last edited by talund at 10-27-2007 10:07 PM]
10-27-2007 at 10:04 PM
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calamarain
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talund wrote:
I've attached my demo with the unintended solution.

And it hurts to reveal my secret and have the #1 taken away by TF Murphy because he did it more efficiently. :thumbsup
But at least you *had* the number 1 for a bit :P To the best of my knowledge, I've never actually had a no 1. A few 2's, but no 1's.

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10-28-2007 at 12:59 PM
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talund
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I'd trade my #1s for your hold building skills. Witherwood and Below Witherwood are two of the better ones I've played. Any hints as to location of the secret room on Citadel of Blades?
[Last edited by talund at 10-28-2007 02:52 PM]
10-28-2007 at 02:47 PM
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Tahnan
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Wow, nice find on the unintended solution there, talund. (And thanks, because that room was starting to drive me nuts. I'll still have to go back and try it the intended way...)

As for the secret room in the Citadel:
Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by Tahnan at 10-28-2007 04:51 PM]
10-28-2007 at 04:50 PM
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calamarain
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Tahnan wrote:
As for the secret room in the Citadel:
Click here to view the secret text
Allow me to be cryptic...

Through the walls is the way to flow
And those that can are where you go.

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10-29-2007 at 10:32 AM
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larrymurk
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I haven't solved all the secret rooms, but I can say this is a great hold.

We have a storyline with voice acting and custom character portraits. Then there are the puzzle rooms which tended to be of the type where you know what you're doing but its going to take you over 500 and often over 1000 moves to accomplish it. Still, the rooms were unique and I enjoyed them. Had enough yet? Well, this hold delivers what in my consideration is the most outstanding feature- new elements. There's a very well thought out new creature and there are also sword towers.

All in all, a spectacular hold not to be missed!

Thanks to calamarain who is working on a new hold at this moment. I can't wait..
10-29-2007 at 03:11 PM
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talund
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I think I've located a flaw which I don't know if I could duplicate. I have not solved Castle Stores, 1N,1E yet when I hit restore it shows that I have conquered 2/2 secrets and I have now mastered the hold.n But I know that I did not solve this room.
[Last edited by talund at 10-29-2007 10:14 PM]
10-29-2007 at 10:13 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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talund, are you playing in DROD 3.0.0 or in DROD 3.1.0.54?

There is a bug in 3.0.0. If you watch another player's demo, the secret rooms they have conquered are marked as conquered in your file as well.
10-29-2007 at 10:17 PM
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larrymurk
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I have the newer version and this bug still occurs to me. (which makes mastering holds much easier) :D
10-29-2007 at 10:21 PM
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talund
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I am playing in 3.1.0.54 and I did not view anyone's demo. Simply went into the room, played around some, left in frustration. Still shows up as unconquered on the restore map but is registered as conquered.
[Last edited by talund at 10-29-2007 10:54 PM]
10-29-2007 at 10:53 PM
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TFMurphy
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It's a known bug and doesn't have anything to do with viewing demos for the hold. I'm not sure of the details, but I believe schep's working through it. I believe it's more about the upgrade process, or possibly the transfer of player files from previous versions: not sure. schep could explain better, of course.
10-29-2007 at 11:11 PM
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