blorx1
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File: Hold.hold (6.4 KB)
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This is a hold. That's about all you could probably say about it. There are rooms. In some rooms you kill things. It is possible to kill all the things in all the rooms. I may add more rooms at some point. It is also likely that many of the things that make killings things difficult are broken.

There are also rooms in this hold where you can get stuck irreversibly. Don't get stuck in those rooms.


New version (12) -> Some unspecific changes. Fixed a challenge. Another version of 2S2E.

Submitted to HA

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 12-16-2016 12:54 AM]

Dischorran
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oog. *these* rooms again.

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blorx1
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Hi, since I've had some free time, I decided to look at this silly thing again. I haven't actually made any changes other than whatever I did 5 months ago with 2S2E, but I'd be interested in getting some feedback.

I understand that some rooms are rather annoying to deal with because of the fact that the messy sections can be rather large. Hopefully it isn't too bad outside of 1W (which I'd be interested in fixing). The style of the hold does lend itself to strangeness, but I think the rooms are all pretty fine.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

blorx1
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Based on some comments I changed 1W and 1N1W to be less annoying.

1W now has more briar roots for you to work with so you spend much less time running back and forth. I'm not sure if the room is actually any fun, but I think it's more reasonable than it was.

For 1N1W I moved the pressure plate so that it's very clear what you have to do. Less going down annoying rabbit holes.

Edit: I just realized that there's some crap left over from when I was first building the hold. That'll get removed in the next version, but for now the hold is unmasterable.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 03-22-2015 10:15 PM]

blorx1
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Less than an hour later, I noticed some stuff that I wanted to change.

It's not too major but I marked a secret as secret, removed an old level that I used during construction and I also made 1S1E into a puzzle that I like more. I wanted to use a certain behavior in the room, but it's not doing what I want, so whatever.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

blorx1
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I was considering replaying this hold, but I'm tired right now, so instead I fixed a room and made sure that every room had a demo. I think that means the hold is masterable because I haven't messed with the starty bit, but if you're not sure ask me and I can check.

Anyway, update in first post. Hopefully I can get this published in the next short bit before I feel inspired to make more of this nastiness.

Also, 1S1E is an absolute mess and should probably be redone into a completely new room and the current thing trashed, but I'll see what a tester thinks if one gets there.

Go!

Edit: Playing through this, I might want to change 1N2E since there's a simple solution that I don't like. Furthermore, 1N1E might be worth changing to decrease the length of the path to the relay station and the pit so that it's trickier to reach the secret. There's a clever trick I'd like to enforce.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 06-11-2016 04:47 PM]

blorx1
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A quick update that adds a speed potion to 1W and fixes a secret.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

Insoluble
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File: Hold.demo (10.8 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

It's weird. I like it. You can look at the few demos I have for rooms I was able to clear (not many).

One thing that is unfortunate is that there are quite a few places where you can get stuck between rooms. You mentioned that in the first post but it bares repeating in the hold proper (possibly in a scroll or something similar.) The blob of kegs is one spot since you can explode the whole mass in 1N. The blob of briar around the entrance is another since you have a pickax in 1N for a little while. EDIT: nope, it looks like you can't enter a room on briar so this is safe.

Looking forward to checking out the new version of 1W based on the changes you mentioned in chat.

EDIT: you mentioned being interested in hoe players decide to progress through this hold. Here's what I did.

1: Went N since it's the only way to go. I had an idea for 1N right off so stayed there instead of trying to explore 1N1E or 2N. My idea was wrong, but lead to the right one. After that I explored 1N1W and 1W but decided not to pursue that direction after getting irrevocably stuck in the keg mass trying to see if I could get to a secret room in 2N1E through the kegs.

Next up was 2N. It took some thinking to come up with a working strategy. There are quite a few elements in this room that aren't required for clearing it but can be used for accessing secrets I guess. I didn't bother with trying to access the secrets from here yet.

After that was 1N1E. That one was pretty quick compared to the first two, but still a solid room.

After that I spent some time trying to gain access to 1N2E. I managed it but didn't spend all that much time on it when I got there since you mentioned in chat that you planned to change it. After that I went to 1W and called it quits for the night since you plan to change that one too.

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[Last edited by Insoluble at 06-14-2016 03:29 PM]

Insoluble
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File: Hold.demo (13.4 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

1W is now much better, thanks. It still feels a bit off though compared to the rest of the rooms. It feels a little bit too straightforward for this hold I guess. I pretty much just jumped right in and did it without thinking too much. Every other room here so far has required some thought and planning. I'm not sure if anything can be done about that though. Heck it may be fine to have a room like this as a break from the more linchpin heavy rooms. I guess if you wanted to make it less straightforward you could include a tarstuff mother in there and force the player to use the mechanic that briar growth kills tarstuff, tarstuff blocks fluff growth, and fluff growth kills briar. Possibly making the player have to come up with some sort of tricky path. That could also be super tedious though, who knows.

Okay, so after 1W I went to the entrance and cleared that naturally. Then I tried some stuff out in 1S. I have some ideas for that room but haven't quite gotten all the pieces to fit together yet.

Next up were my two favorite rooms in the hold. 1E and 2E are both super cool. Loved them both. I tried to see if there was anything unintended I could do but I'm pretty sure that they're safe. One thing that I will say is that I was almost certain that there would be a secret in 3E that would somehow be accessible by trimming the briar with the fegundo. Maybe put some arrows along the edge like you did for the other rooms?

I guess I cleared 1S2E too, but I suspect that the roach will somehow be important for accessing that secret room. 1S1E has brained seep. Yay? I'll try to give it a proper go later this week and maybe I'll actually learn how these things are supposed to work finally.

Demos are attached in case you want to see what I did. I'm pretty sure everything I did was intentional though.

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blorx1
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Huh, the way you did 1W is way different from what I did. I guess it's only possible now that I added the speed potion. Not really something I plan on changing, but it's interesting.

Everything else looks good so far. Good to see some progress from testers.

1S is definitely a hard room and 1S1E is as much of a mess as it is difficult, so if you don't enjoy trying to figure out what's going on feel free to say so and I might try to fix it. I'll see when I have a good chance to do so.


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Chaco
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I think I came up with a good idea for preventing the "keg blob" backtracking problem in 1N1W, 1N and 2N.

In 1N, you could add an inactive clone inside the green door southwest quadrant, say at (7, 21). I don't think this helps with doing any of the puzzles in this room, and it also lets you escape the kegs by switching to that clone and leaving the room.

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Lucky Luc
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File: Hold Lucky Luc Demos.demo (10.5 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

So it turns out that maybe 1W was my problem, after all. No idea how I'd have ever solved that without a speed potion.

I solved a few things and quite probably broke 1S, so I'm posting here before I get stuck again and forget it.

This is a really cool concept, but yeah, it will take me a while to get through all the rooms.

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[Last edited by Lucky Luc at 06-26-2016 02:01 PM]

blorx1
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I made a change which I think fixes 1S. I think this update also inlcudes and update to a secret. and I also tweaked the secret access for a certain secret that would otherwise be kind of unfair to find (basically required spotting an offcolor tile on the room edge under a keg). Go play around in the keg blob again if you're curious.

I've also added a no speed potion challenge to 1W because I'm still partial to my strategy for the room and I think it's the sort of thing that's appropriate for a challenge.

The only thing that's left is to deal with 1S1E. I'm getting the impression that I really shouldn't leave it as is. I'm thinking that I'll keep the lynchpin with the eye and make the seep bit not time dependent, so that it's more obvious what needs to happen. I haven't fixed it yet, but it's my next to-do.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 06-26-2016 03:15 PM]

blorx1
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I think this is a good fix to 1S1E. Also sorry about posting that last version not in the first post, I kinda forgot.

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blorx1
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I'm still wondering if the fixed 1S1E is reasonable.

Ideally I would get a release candidate in the next month or so, but if people need time to play this, then go ahead, since I know that most of the secrets are still pretty much untouched too.

In the next update I'm also going to put checkpoints next to the rotator token in 1N1W so that the lag problems are reduced.

Edit: Oh and this will also have a qol improvement in 1N so you might not get stuck in the keg hell.

____________________________
If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 07-30-2016 05:10 AM]

Lucky Luc
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File: Hold Level 1S1E Victory.demo (6.5 KB)
Downloaded 47 times.
License: Public Domain

Arhg, I'm a terrible beta tester, sorry!

Very much broke 1S1W, demo attached. Haven't solved the fixed version of 1S yet.

EDIT: And by 1S1W I mean 1S1E, obviously

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[Last edited by Lucky Luc at 08-01-2016 07:20 PM]

blorx1
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Good catch with 1S1E. I decided the easiest (and clearest fix) is just to force the player to stay west when hitting the plate.

I also slightly tweaked the hot tiles to enforce some newly possible cleverness. See if this is still broken.

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Lucky Luc
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File: Hold Level 1S1E Victory.demo (7 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

Maybe intended, maybe not?

blorx1
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Posting another fix to alleviate more backtracking issues. Now you can only get stuck in 1S1E, but that's very much your fault I'd say. Should also fix a couple US's in secrets.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 08-01-2016 09:43 PM]

mxvladi
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Pretty sure this isn't how 2N 1W was meant to be solved. EDIT: attachment removed

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 08-10-2016 05:57 AM]

blorx1
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Good catch. I'll turn the arrow so that isn't possible in the next version. I added it to stop people from putting the mimic there, but it adds other problems, evidently.

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mxvladi
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File: Hold Level 2S2E Victory.demo (1.5 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

Conquered, 3/5 secrets done for now. Pretty fun.

All required rooms seem to work as intended (or at least aren't broken too badly)... not entirely sure about 1S 1E though, I wouldn't describe my solution as "very specific and finicky", attached my demo for it to my previous post in this topic, just in case I broke something.

Also, I don't think 2S 2E was supposed to be so easy?

blorx1
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Your solution to 1S1E is correct. The solution was a lot more finicky in a previous version (when it had arrow walls instead of mirror walls) and I never took out that scroll. I'll fix 2S2E because that definitely wasn't supposed to happen. It's not a particularly hard room, but as you said, it's not that easy.

I've posted a new version with that fix and any other fixes from before (I think 2N1W and that's it).

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blorx1
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I'm not quite sure what else to do with this. As of now, I think there are two secrets that nobody has solved, and I'd like to fix that.

1N2W is mostly unsolved because 1N1W is nigh impossible to understand. I'm not sure what to about that, since I want to leave the room, but I don't have a particularly good solution to making the room easier to understand.

I'm not sure if 2N1E or 1N2E is the other one mxv hasn't solved, but ideally I'd get some feedback on both rooms from more people.

I also decided that 2S2E would be a lot more interesting with more disarm tokens, so when I post a new version, it won't be as trivial (but it might feel sort of trial and errory, so we'll see how people react).

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mxvladi
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Allright, I've solved those two secrets I haven't done previously (the other one was 1N 2E btw).

I've actually reached 1N 2W a while ago, just got distracted by non-DROD stuff before I solved it. Can't say I understood 1N 1W completely, but managed to reach secret room entrance with some trial-and-error and doing what seemed to make most sense. As for the secret room itself, I didn't use decoy potion at 10,1, otherwise solution seems intended.

For 1N 2E I didn't use decoy which is under the adder, also not sure if intended. Attached demo of it to this post (upd: removed), let me know if you also need demo for 1N 2W.

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[Last edited by mxvladi at 10-06-2016 10:01 PM]

blorx1
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I'm not entirely sure if 1N2E is easily fixable, but I decided to simplify the room significantly in a way that might do a good job of also enforcing my solution.

1N2W is fine.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 10-06-2016 09:25 PM]