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Jeff_Ray...
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icon The Test Of Mind (+6)  
Alright, so after I played Chaco's hold, I had the urge to make something better in an attempt to showcase my skills. It has a nice backstory with it.

With that said, enjoy!

~Jeff_Ray = = =

EDIT: Yes, Halph's Resurfacing is under hold at the moment.

EDIT 2: I forgot to make an autosave for the second boss fight.

EDIT 3: This is the almost-final version with the first seven parts finished!

EDIT 4: The final version is here! I made a few changes, and removed the bonuses part.

EDIT 5: A bothersome problem has been removed: the platform in Inner Challenges: 1S was replaced by ground.

EDIT 6: Made Part 6 boss unskippable; added checkpoint for Final Boss.

EDIT 7: Made loads of changes, added some secrets. This should be the very last version of the hold.

EDIT 8: Quick edit: I made a fix to a puzzle in Part 7.

EDIT 9: Some music-related changes.

EDIT 10: A Spookswielder passing glitch is fixed. Thanks, Blondbeard!

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 09-12-2009 06:34 PM]
10-05-2008 at 01:47 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
Tarantula Killed
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Weakling Defeated
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More comments when I finish the hold.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 10-05-2008 03:44 AM]
10-05-2008 at 03:26 AM
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deftriver
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
I like how I've had to go back and replay many rooms in order to get through. I also like that that part isn't too confusing (in other words I I would say don't go overboard with it). It seems to flow nicely. I also like the use of opening a door from elsewhere, something a lot of RPGs that I like have that hasn't been used much yet for this one.

Oh yeah, and:

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[Last edited by deftriver at 10-05-2008 04:33 AM]
10-05-2008 at 04:29 AM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
Hey, fun fact about an unexpected cutscene that takes you to another room: you can't restart the room once it's over, in case you decide you didn't want to do that. (Perhaps a save point before stepping on the 3S3W pressure plate...)

Edit to note: My scores at the aforementioned scorepoints:

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 10-05-2008 07:49 AM]
10-05-2008 at 07:16 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
Very nice hold, Jeff! :)

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 10-05-2008 09:45 AM]
10-05-2008 at 09:11 AM
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
First things first:
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And you have a very nice feature, which I believe you might not even know about, in your hold. Since the multiplier increases for each segment you complete you will get +2 to attack if you leave a gem in the first segment, and pick it up when you've entered the second. And a 200 lives will become a 400 lives. This is very nice from an optimizing perspective, but you might want to mention it in the beginning of the hold.

I liked the hold quite a bit, and with the multiplier feature you can play the hold in a challanging way, no matter how good you are, since you benefit so much from leaving a defense/attack gem for when the multiplyer goes up. Thus, even if you can finnish the hold easily, you can play it against yourself to get a good end score.

My advise would be to add a "super boss" at the very end of the hold, where you have to not picking up gems directly in order to have a chance to beat him.

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10-05-2008 at 10:22 AM
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Tahnan
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quote:
Blondbeard wrote:
Since the multiplier increases for each segment you complete you will get +2 to attack if you leave a gem in the first segment...
...and, of course, the cost of getting through a greckle gate goes up, too, which is similarly interesting from an optimizing perspective.

quote:
My advise would be to add a "super boss" at the very end of the hold, where you have to not picking up gems directly in order to have a chance to beat him.
In an optional/hidden room, perhaps? One of the high points of Paycheck, I thought, was that you could conquer it without optimizing. I'd hate to see someone unable to finish this because they weren't doing really serious optimizing, beyond the basic resource management needed to finish.
10-06-2008 at 06:00 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (0)  
quote:
Tahnan wrote:
quote:
Blondbeard wrote:
My advise would be to add a "super boss" at the very end of the hold, where you have to not picking up gems directly in order to have a chance to beat him.
In an optional/hidden room, perhaps? One of the high points of Paycheck, I thought, was that you could conquer it without optimizing. I'd hate to see someone unable to finish this because they weren't doing really serious optimizing, beyond the basic resource management needed to finish.


Yes. That's what I meant. Something like the Archiveist alternate ending in Tendrys Tale.

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10-06-2008 at 06:43 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (0)  
quote:
Tahnan wrote:
quote:
Blondbeard wrote:
Since the multiplier increases for each segment you complete you will get +2 to attack if you leave a gem in the first segment...
...and, of course, the cost of getting through a greckle gate goes up, too, which is similarly interesting from an optimizing perspective.



Not if you open the greckle gates while the multiplier is x1, but retrieve the items while it is x2. Blondbeard's point of completing part 1 with minimal retrieval of HP and ATK gems so they can be gathered later is still valid.

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10-06-2008 at 11:16 AM
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[Last edited by Someone Else at 10-08-2008 05:28 AM]
10-07-2008 at 01:09 AM
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Tarantula Killed
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10-07-2008 at 09:17 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
Just for fun I replayed it.
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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-10-2008 02:33 PM]
10-10-2008 at 02:31 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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A new version with a long level 3 is out! Beware, it's quite tough!

Here are my scores, in order:

Score Point 1: 463

Score point 2: 810

EDIT: Also, the parts are now split apart. If I am pressured to, though, I will regroup the levels into one again.

EDIT 2: Here's the fixed version. Kudos to Mike! :)

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 10-19-2008 02:04 AM]
10-18-2008 at 04:07 PM
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Blondbeard
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Alright! Captain defeted: My score = 1387 (7467/123/92/15/8/0)

I don't really like the splitting out. It adds load times, and ctrl move becomes harder to do and it substracts strategy. Also: Please give some warning befor the player reaches the point of no return. Also again: Leave a scroll in front of the alter telling the player that so far the alter stats multiplyer will not change. I guess this will change in the future. Please leave some kind of super boss, for an alternate ending, in the very end, which requires alter optimization. Somewhat like the Archiveist in Tendrys Tale. You just have to place him there :)

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-20-2008 12:01 PM]
10-20-2008 at 12:00 PM
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mxvladi
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I've just started playing this...


Tarantula killed
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This is quite challenging hold so far. Now onto the seond part...

Also, it's nice to see that somebody uses my sword graphics!(looking closely at the "lifedrainer sword" in the misc.level in the level editor) :D
10-20-2008 at 02:53 PM
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mxvladi
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Weakling defeated
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10-20-2008 at 03:09 PM
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mxvladi
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Captain Defeated
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It's time to optimize the hold... my score isn't good. :(

Agrh, I found only 60% of secrets! :angry

[Last edited by mxvladi at 10-20-2008 06:17 PM]
10-20-2008 at 06:08 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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Alright, so I made a small tune for inclusion in this quest/hold/whatever.

I would like your opinion on it. To check it out, look at the left.
It was made in Noteworthy Composer and converted to OGG format.

It's intended to be used when Gobardo meets a very dark, strong and spooky enemy, or any other very scary moment.

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10-21-2008 at 01:58 AM
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Chaco
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I've listened to this track a few times, and although I don't consider myself an expert on music composition, I certainly consider myself brave (foolish?) enough to critique your work.

You have a nice theme going on with the organ instrument and the drums as a back. The first twenty or so seconds make a nice introduction that slowly start up the mood of the song... and I don't think the rest of the song actually really begins. Although the "momentum", so to say, starts at the beginning of the song, there isn't enough substance in the rest of the song.

If you brought in some more instruments and elaborated on the melody, making the song longer (with fewer glaring pauses filled with silence) then I think you could make this song a bit better as background music during a confrontation.

You have a nice start, but I think you should improve this before you actually include this in Test of Mind. Once you do, then I'm sure it'll be great. :)

(I've actually thought once or twice about composing my own music, but dismissed those due to lack of time to practice and polish. Sometime when I work up the nerve and free time this may happen.)

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10-21-2008 at 02:25 AM
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Dischorran
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What Chaco said, since he said it with much more tact.

Composition is *hard*. Making something that won't send people scrambling for the speaker control is going to take a lot of time, and if it's not done really well, it'll just come off as gimmicky. Have I mentioned that I play DROD with the music turned off anyway?

As an alternative, you might consider poking around the Wikimedia Commons for recordings placed in the public domain. Try starting with Mars from Holst's Planets (and then listen to the rest of the suite ;)).

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10-21-2008 at 05:49 AM
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quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
Alright, so I made a small tune for inclusion in this quest/hold/whatever.

I would like your opinion on it. To check it out, look at the left.
It was made in Noteworthy Composer and converted to OGG format.

It's intended to be used when Gobardo meets a very dark, strong and spooky enemy, or any other very scary moment.



So I just started going to school for music production, not to mention I've been playing music since I was 7, so hopefully I can help you out. I'm hopin' I come off as constructive. I'm sorry if I offend you. :)

I'm not sure what MIDI capability Noteworthy Composer supports (I use Finale for notation, personally), but it sounds like you're using the General MIDI instruments. I always avoid using GM because in my personal opinion, every patch sounds a bit cheesy and outdated. It's also been a while since video games used only basic GM instruments. Do you know if Noteworthy Composer supports sampled instruments?

But for MIDI sequencing, I wouldn't suggest using notation software to begin with...they're meant for notation, not playback. If you have access to a Mac, GarageBand is a surprisingly powerful sequencer that comes with every Mac. Sadly I don't know any good free sequencers for PC other than Audacity, but I can't remember if it supports MIDI.

As for the song itself. I agree with Chaco...it sounds like the introduction to something, but it ultimately doesn't go anywhere. I'd suggest making it shorter (Like only loop those first few notes twice, max). Then come up with a theme. Personally, when I think of writing a horror theme, I think about trying to use chromatically-ascending dissonant chords with a really chromatic, almost atonal melody. Sudden changes in dynamics and instrumentation are effective as well.

Also, you should try using different rhythms between the drum and the organ. The drum and organ were playing in unison for nearly every note, and that gets a little bit monotonous. Find the empty spaces in your music and consider filling it with drums or new instruments.

I don't really have time to help with the composition aspect (I have my own projects to write for school!), but I use professional sequencers like Logic and Reason regularly, so if you want more realistic or complex instruments, I'll offer to help out with that, it'll take me seriously 2 seconds to import your MIDI data, change the instrument, and then export it.

You're off to a good start though. :)




10-21-2008 at 08:02 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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Alright, so I attempted to make it sound not like a never ending intro. It might be a tad bit short... but I don't aim to make a fully complex tune either.

If anyone can make this sound more realistic, feel free to contact me via PM (yes, that means you, cheese, if you wish to).

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10-22-2008 at 12:32 AM
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Chaco
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Okay, I have a new audio review for the second revision.

First, let me start by saying this: This is an improvement, but I still wouldn't call this proper videogame music.

You still only have two instruments or "channels" going on at the same time - the organ and the drums. Often only one is playing at once, and there are still several pauses. To make a comparison, the NES (upon which many, many great songs have been composed) has four channels, and nearly all of the good examples I can think of* are constantly using all four to make a flowing song, with not just a melody, but some supporting sounds and tones as well to carry the tune forward and give it more momentum. I'd suggest adding a third or fourth instrument at around the twenty-five second mark (after the organ + drum bit is done)

You have indeed improved the melody a bit, and I'd say the first twenty-five or so seconds is fine as far as the organ goes. The slight note changes from thirty to thirty-five seconds, while okay for your first project, don't seem to vary enough to make a true melody shine. But, especially concerning was the change of key from minor to major at around 47 seconds, which is just not very good to pile on top of everything else here.

Anyhow, if you make the song a bit longer, complicate the melody so there is a progression from start to middle to finish (and possibly back to start if you want this to loop, like most videogame music does) and fill in some of the disconcerting gaps, I'm sure you can make this song better.

Don't give up - song-making is very difficult. It takes a long time to make a song pleasing to listen to, but the results are quite fantastic, as I'm sure you can attest to, having listened to all the DROD music.

(Once again, I'll say that I am not a music composer, I am just a music player and a music-listener. Take my suggestions for change with a bit of salt, but please listen to them. I like to think I at least have an idea of what I'm talking about here.)

*The official soundtracks to the first six Mega Man games should be a good start.

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10-22-2008 at 01:32 AM
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Okay. Here's the deal: As it is now you would worsen your hold by putting this music in. It's not that you are bad at making music, just inexperiensed (I think). Most music that is put into games are made by people with years and years of experience. I couldn't make music that would improve a hold, and I don't think you can either right now, but don't worry. I'm sure you'll get there if you want to. You are a fighter, as far as I've seen. Your architecture skills has improved something imensly from what I first played a hold by you, and maybe you can surprise me music-wise also. But you do have to struggle to become really good. Imitate music you like. Experiment. Don't be afraid of "failure".

That being said: Of course you can put your music in, if you really feel like it. And I think Chaco offers good advise. I didn't like the pauses either. And just those two instruments over and over in this composition grew a bit irritating after a few run-throughs. And I don't like the "hardness" of the organ. I don't have the right terms, but it's like it's stinging my eardrums in a non-pleasent way. Perhaps cheese obsessive could help with that?



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10-22-2008 at 07:33 AM
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Right now, I'm using a program called Switch for that type of convertion. I didn't see any limitations as of now, so maybe it's free.

Also, I decided to put the music making on hold. Maybe I can find a substitute tune for the use I wish to make out of it. I'll submit another version of the file when I am pretty much finished with the level design.

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10-22-2008 at 08:02 PM
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icon Re: The Test Of Mind (+1)  
791 Points after killing the Captain. My tactic was to invest most stat-boosts into ATK, because most enemies in level 2 and 3 had high ATK and low DEF/HIT. So getting them in few hits was always the key to success and after level 1 defense was almost no issue. Maybe you could add some enemies with high HIT and not so high ATK to make defense also important.

I liked the hold that far.
10-28-2008 at 06:14 PM
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Im afraid you made part III to easy... i was really overpowered.
my score
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But the main point:
I really enjoyed playing this hold.
This is a good example of a RPG hold.
Good job Jeff!

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cuts music away.

i also ended with 60%.
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11-01-2008 at 12:35 AM
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Yeah, the third part is way too easy. You also missed the entrance text for one of the secrets. Score at end of hold 1171. I had 3800 hp, 10 yellow keys, 5 green keys, def 80, attack 127.

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11-12-2008 at 02:27 AM
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What exactly made the third level so easy? I would guess the abundance of ATK gems... right?

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11-12-2008 at 10:52 PM
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The alter also. I guess you will add more levels, making it a bad idea to overuse the alter. But if you overuse it the level, as it is now, becomes very easy.

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11-12-2008 at 10:57 PM
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