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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Poison and Shining Tiles (Like the original Drod.)
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Giant-Nator22
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How about if we implement poison and shining tiles?

Basically, poison tiles are like tokens, they will make something happen when you step on them.

Poison tiles will prevent you from pressing backspace when you die. This can be hard, but in Drod AE, they had that.


Also, shining tiles will re allow you to press backspace. Obviously, a person that is an awesome game player that won Drod AE easily, will not think about these tiles.

Either way, I think they would be cool.

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10-01-2007 at 05:28 AM
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Tahnan
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No.

Things that Beethro does affect Beethro. Beethro shouldn't step on a token that reverses your controls, or prevents you from hitting "undo" or "restart", or turns off checkpoints, or, period. (The visibility token *could* be seen as an exception, but (a) it's still something at the Beethro-level and (b) it adds to, not subtracts from, the player's power.)

There's just no good reason for something like this, period.
10-01-2007 at 06:36 AM
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Beef Row
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Tahnan wrote:
No.

Things that Beethro does affect Beethro. Beethro shouldn't step on a token that reverses your controls, or prevents you from hitting "undo" or "restart", or turns off checkpoints, or, period. (The visibility token *could* be seen as an exception, but (a) it's still something at the Beethro-level and (b) it adds to, not subtracts from, the player's power.)

There's just no good reason for something like this, period.

Well, I actually think this is a not entirely bad idea. First of all note that this isn't actually turning off checkpoints. Architects already have an excellent way to do that: don't add any checkpoints in the first place.

So what does this actually do? It affects undo only. I could see it used for 'classic style' challenge rooms. For instance, in some hypothetical KDD 3.0, you could have the '3 mothers' room with all normal benefits of the 3.0 engine, then an optional secret version without checkpoints or undo. I'd be interested to see how much the leader board would differ, both in raw top scores, and who held them.

This feature could also be good in holds which feature trivia, word puzzles, etc, to reduce the use of trial and error and encourage some thought.

I could also see it for rooms with puzzles involving the careful cutting of unanimated tar to encourage contemplation instead of a poke and pray style encouraged by undo.

Lastly, this would be good in some rooms which are mainly plot exposition but not purely cutscenes, where undo can interfere with text and voice display at times (often I've found the cost of a poorly chosen undo in such a room to be a restore immediately after.)

There are obviously other, bad, terrible or worse uses of this feature, but unlike say unpredictable scripting, this is a visible element and such a bad use would be highly obvious during testing and the HA approval step. So I don't think thats a big concern.

So I'd say outside of quiz type holds this probably lacks actual puzzle potential, but in the right room could be used to foster a contemplative style of puzzling over an experimental one. Or a feeling of mortal terror (picture Banj's Tar Mother Den with a poison tile on entry. This is perhaps the best example of good AND bad uses of this feature I can think of.) And it could be used to help prevent accidentally missing plot, without hindering the intentional skipping of same (in this case it could be put in a place where you could choose to step on it or not, also).

So yeah, I actually rather like this idea, and don't think its nearly as bad as it appears at first glance, but rather a useful but somewhat subtle tool (emphasis on this being a tool, not a weapon.)

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10-02-2007 at 05:12 AM
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coppro
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The leader board wouldn't differ. Someone would do the regular version, write the moves down, and then do them in the no-backspace version.
10-02-2007 at 06:07 AM
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Tahnan
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Beef Row wrote:
Well, I actually think this is a not entirely bad idea. First of all note that this isn't actually turning off checkpoints.
Right, I didn't say it was; I was using that as one of three or four examples of game elements affecting player control, which I disapprove of.

And I don't disapprove of this feature because I thought it would disable checkpoints; I disapprove because it's primarily an irritation. (I point you to Tahnan's First Rule of Architecture: Don't Irritate the Player.)

My feeling on trivia and word puzzles is that there are better ways to implement them than turning off the player's ability to undo a move. (I mean, imagine that you've got a long room of trivia, and then on the last question you accidentally step on the wrong answer because you hit the wrong key. Wouldn't you want to be able to undo it?) See, for instance, the entry in Holds Al Dente, where you answer all thirteen or so questions and then find out how you did; undo wouldn't help you here.* Or there's RoboBob's not-dr0d, which is all word puzzles, but with an incredibly clever answer-entry system for which, again, "undo" is not especially helpful.

So, points taken, and yet I stand by my gut reaction: no.

*Note: I hated this room. But that's not because of the implementation of a trivia-based room; it's because (a) I found the trivia dull, (b) one question relied on realizing that a misspelling was intentional, and not carelessness on the part of an architect whose grammar isn't very good in the rest of the room, (c) the room was actually broken in the original submission (fixed in the Lunchbox Special compilation), and (d) probably something else.
10-02-2007 at 05:50 PM
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silver
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icon Re: Poison and Shining Tiles (+3)  
if there's going to be an "oh, you're poisoned" kind of thing, it should not affect meta-game mechanics like undo or checkpoints. it should affect game mechanics. examples:

* you're too tired to walk much, so every time you step, you have to wait or turn in place before you can step again

* you're too weak to hold up your sword so -- oh, this is already implemented as the swordlessness tile :)

* you're suffering a mental condition that makes you unwilling to step within a square of pits and/or water

stuff like that.
not that I need to see any of this implemented, I'm just sayin'. the meta-game mechanics should not be up for changing from within the game world.



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[Last edited by silver at 10-02-2007 07:37 PM]
10-02-2007 at 07:20 PM
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Jacob
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The discussion entitled DROD: User Interface is probably pertinent here.
Personally, I'm against the proposed change here for these reasons.

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10-03-2007 at 12:06 AM
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Giant-Nator22
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Aw dang. I'm being uprooted by some master Drod players about a topic that probably never had any good potential. It feels kind of embarrassing.

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10-06-2007 at 01:11 AM
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NoahT
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I would call it "pointing in the right direction" as opposed to "uprooting," and just so you know, you're not alone. It was in response to whole lot of inappropriate feature requests during the first year of this forum that this thread was created. :D

-Noah

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10-06-2007 at 01:40 AM
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Giant-Nator22
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It was in response to whole lot of inappropriate feature requests during the first year of this forum that this thread was created.

Yes, however what is the real Feature Request that is a really good idea.

I know it has to be in the game somehow, it can't just be about "blah".

But it just is continually avoided. Can anyone avoid that?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 10-08-2007 07:19 PM]
10-08-2007 at 01:51 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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The ray-gun is a well-known joke, as well as ketchup and puppies.

It wasn't a serious request.

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10-08-2007 at 02:20 PM
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