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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : DROD for the colourblind
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calamarain
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icon DROD for the colourblind (+3)  
This one is actually quick and practically implementable, can be done as a separate theme rather than altering the main game.

I have a friend, he was tempted by DROD but he turned it down because he's almost totally colourblind. Most of the time it's the shape rather than the colour that matters, but certain things aren't so easy to distinguish e.g. red vs blue vs yellow vs green doors or Beethro/mimic/clone/activeclone/decoy

So, in the spirit of accessibility, how about a custom theme that caters for the colourblind? It wouldn't involve too much, just altering the shapes a bit more. e.g. red doors would be jagged, blue doors would be made of blocks, green doors would be made of circular bubbles for example. Perhaps give the tarstuffs different textures. A good guideline would be that if you turn off the colour and look at it in black and white, and still are able to tell what everything is easily, you've done it right.

Anyone want to volunteer to make one? I do not have any kind of skill when it comes to pixel art myself.

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[Last edited by calamarain at 08-17-2007 02:30 PM]
08-17-2007 at 02:25 PM
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roach strangler
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (0)  
I see where this is going. It is a good idea but what about objects with mixed colors?
08-17-2007 at 02:44 PM
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Beef Row
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (0)  
roach strangler wrote:
I see where this is going. It is a good idea but what about objects with mixed colors?

Mmm, I don't think the textures of the objects need to really relate to their original colors, so that doesn't matter too much.

I wouldn't want to be the guy designing tarstuff switchers for this scheme though, since you'd have to fit two clear sets of texture information in a single space, because it needs to be clear WHICH two stuffs are being switched. Might have to give up the circular token shape to get some extra space for those.

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08-17-2007 at 02:53 PM
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calamarain
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Beef Row wrote:
I wouldn't want to be the guy designing tarstuff switchers for this scheme though, since you'd have to fit two clear sets of texture information in a single space, because it needs to be clear WHICH two stuffs are being switched. Might have to give up the circular token shape to get some extra space for those.

It doesn't have to be that alike to what's there already as long as you can tell what's what.

e.g. for tarstuff - perhaps have very light gray for tar, medium gray for mud and dark dark gray for gel? That way, tokens would still work.

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08-17-2007 at 11:44 PM
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (0)  
I can try... I'm sending you a PM.

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08-18-2007 at 12:07 AM
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calamarain
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OK. If we're making a whole new one, we would not require Erik's permission but if we're just going to edit one of the base TCB themes, then permission would be needed.

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08-18-2007 at 12:24 AM
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Jatopian
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calamarain wrote:
e.g. for tarstuff - perhaps have very light gray for tar, medium gray for mud and dark dark gray for gel? That way, tokens would still work.
I'd totally do the opposite. And yeah, I think it should be modifying the extant tilesets.

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08-18-2007 at 02:27 AM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (+1)  
The textures on the doors that were introduced from JtRH are because I brought this up during development. It's not exactly what I meant, though.

I'd definitely like to see this in the game proper, as I'd also like the doors to suggest their function somewhat, but that's dependent on art.

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08-18-2007 at 06:33 AM
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calamarain
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (+3)  
Mattcrampy makes some good points.

OK, let's prioritise then. (apologies for length of post, but I wanted to get all the ideas in)

These are the elements that are not easily distinguished apart from colour:

* Tar/Mud/Gel and their appropriate babies
* Decoys/Mimics/Clones/Inactive Clones
* Potions
* Tarstuff change tokens
* Various floor types - Platforms/water/hot tile, and perhaps bridges
* Red/Blue/Yellow/Green/Black doors and their sister gates.
* Guards/Stalwarts
* Snakelike creatures possibly, though they do have the different tail for the rattler.
* Citizens


Ideas for each individually:

* Tarstuff
Make one type of tar light in colour, one type medium, and one type dark, with corresponding babies. The greys should be different enough to be able to tell them apart.

* Beethro-like creations:
- Mimics: Have them resemble Beethro but with inverted black/white
- Decoys: Have them being much wider and fatter than beethro - they're decoys, they don't need to resemble him precisely
- Inactive Clones: When they're not active, have them as a more solid mass of colour, with little contrast.

* Potions:
For this one, I would suggest the simple expedient of enlarging the potion sprite slightly, and placing a letter in the bottle. M for Mimic, D for Decoy, I for Invisibility, C for Clone and S for speed. Those letters are visually distinct enough that it should be doable in a few pixels.

* Tarstuff change tokens
Again, not too much of a problem, enlarge the token slightly, take away some of the border inside and have the colours changed to the corresponding light/med/dark grey

* Floor types
OK, this one is a bit more of a tricky one. Let us assume for a moment that we are creating a single theme, not six to match each in game. Therefore, we would need to make it clear and crisp. Assume again that we are only considering basic check floor, and not any of the advanced floor types (road, grass, mosaic).

Trapdoors are distinct enough already due to the lines. The same may be said of oremites and bridges. Hot tiles and water need to be made distinct from each other and normal floor (when in B&W). Give water some slight ripples and give hot tiles a... circle on each perhaps, like a plate atop a stove?

* Gates and Sister Gates
This is one that just needs a bit of good artwork. Each door needs to be visually distinct from others. As yellow doors are the most common, I suggest that they remain the same in texture.

Give red gates and sister gates the same liney texture as trapdoors, thus making them correspond.

Black gates are dark enough that they stand out on their own, and would not need any change

Give green doors some kind of mark on each square, perhaps a star?

Give blue doors a different mark on each square. A square perhaps. As long as they're distinct.

* Sworded creatures
Slayers are already different enough due to the hook, no changes needed there. But a guard is similar to a recoloured version of a stalwart. What I'd suggest is making the guard uniform a lot darker and the stalwart lighter, so they can be more easily told apart in B&W.

* Long creatures
The rattler's already distinct due to the tail, but for manysnake rooms this could be confusing. Add in a ringed pattern down the length. The adder has a larger head, but something more would be needed really. Add some diamond patterns going down the length?

* Citizens
This one's the stumbling point. There are so many possible colours of citizens that I simply cannot think of a way to represent them adequately in a way that doesn't require colour. Sorry.

How does all that sound? Feasible?

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[Last edited by calamarain at 08-18-2007 02:39 PM]
08-18-2007 at 02:37 PM
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vittro
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (0)  
I agree with you. Just that citizens' colors can't be modified :) They're created by c++ not, by gfx grahpics. We should re-compile DROD in this case...

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08-18-2007 at 03:02 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (+1)  
I'm probably a bad person for wanting to represent everything in ascii--"t/m/g" for tar/mud/gel babies, "T/M/G" for tar/mud/gel mothers, etc. etc. I've never even played Nethack, and yet...
08-18-2007 at 04:03 PM
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calamarain
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Tahnan wrote:
I'm probably a bad person for wanting to represent everything in ascii--"t/m/g" for tar/mud/gel babies, "T/M/G" for tar/mud/gel mothers, etc. etc. I've never even played Nethack, and yet...

I'm a NetHack/Angband player too. It would work for some creatures, e.g. those for which orientation is irrelevant (roach, goblin, tarstuff baby etc) but not for creatures like aumtlich, slayers, guards.

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08-18-2007 at 04:52 PM
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Mattcrampy
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As mentioned, I've been thinking about this from a usability point of view:

* Tarstuff - Tarstuff edges that are impregnable should look shiny, like giant diamonds; tarstuff edges that can be cut should look slightly bubbly and gooey.

* Mimics are probably fine, but could perhaps have their alpha turned down slightly as they're copies. I like the idea of decoys looking like training dummies. Clones could perhaps be (mostly) black and white, with their alpha down slightly, and a visible red pulsing - they're a lifeline, after all.

* Change the doors so that they suggest their function. Red doors might look like emergency barriers, for instance; green doors might look like a spiky barracade; black doors might look like a cooling system.

* Pressure plates should have small sections that don't move that suggest their response to being pressed: for instance, one-time pressure plates might have grooves in the corners where they are 'held down' after being stepped on; pressure plates that toggle both down and up might have a small device in the centre that moves as a counterweight (a round hole or something).

* Potion caps might suggest what they do. Say, a cross for a mimic potion, a ring for invisibility, a double diamond for a clone potion.

* I'm not convinced that hot tiles and water are indistingushable. You can walk on hot tiles, for instance, and they do appear clearly tiled.

* Thankfully, making the vulnerable part of the snake bigger is something that's stayed on. As these three snakes behave somewhat similarly, I think the head's probably fine. On the other hand, I really do like the idea of giving the adder some diamonds just for the cosmetic look, and because it does have the eating monsters thing going for it.

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08-18-2007 at 05:49 PM
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calamarain
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (0)  
Sounds good in general. I have no experience with pixel art myself, I wouldn't even know *how* to create a TCB theme.

I like your idea about the tarstuff edges - not only will the colour let you know what sort the tarstuff is (important for the babies too, since gel ones behave differently), but if you can tell at a glance where is cuttable, you're in. How would that work for Gel though, since I believe there is no specific graphic for an internal corner of gel. Would it just appear indestructable all around the outside and rely on the player to figure out that only the internal corners are vulnerable?

the visible pulsing is a good one, but is it implementable trivially in a theme?

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[Last edited by calamarain at 08-18-2007 11:11 PM]
08-18-2007 at 10:39 PM
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Jacob
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Doesn't right clicking obviate the need for this?
Also, I'm pretty sure the majority of colour blind people lose the ability to distinguish only a subset of colours (e.g. red-green's the commonest) - so would you really need everything changed?

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08-19-2007 at 02:19 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: DROD for the colourblind (0)  
Jacob wrote:
Doesn't right clicking obviate the need for this?
Would you enjoy right-clicking constantly?
I'm pretty sure the majority of colour blind people lose the ability to distinguish only a subset of colours (e.g. red-green's the commonest) - so would you really need everything changed?
Yes, to cover all possible lost subsets as well as the truly colorblind; and no, not everything would need changing, just that which is difficult to distinguish.

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08-19-2007 at 02:28 AM
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calamarain
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Also, it wouldn't be a case of everything changed :) Just need to make a single theme that's appropriate, and then set every level to use that instead of the default ones.

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08-19-2007 at 03:32 AM
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Beef Row
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Mattcrampy wrote:
* Pressure plates should have small sections that don't move that suggest their response to being pressed: for instance, one-time pressure plates might have grooves in the corners where they are 'held down' after being stepped on; pressure plates that toggle both down and up might have a small device in the centre that moves as a counterweight (a round hole or something).

I'd actually like this even though I see color fully. While the diffrences between the 3 plates are obvious if I see them next to each other, I never remember which is which very well, so a little hint like that would be great.

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08-19-2007 at 03:56 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Yeah, the pressure plate thing sparked off a lot of my ideas.

I'm not sure about the pulsing - it depends on if clones animate - but I'm pretty sure that alpha can't be themed.

Inside corners indeed have tiles, so they can be rethemed.

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08-19-2007 at 08:37 AM
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Jacob wrote:
Also, I'm pretty sure the majority of colour blind people lose the ability to distinguish only a subset of colours (e.g. red-green's the commonest) - so would you really need everything changed?
What surprised me a bit was that there seems to be the notion that the "Tileset for the Chromatically Challenged" (was that PC enough? :lol) needs to be totally monochrome.

Sure, it's features need to be discernable by their brightness alone, but that doesn't mean you have to drop colors completely - just don't use colors (only) for coding information...

np: Tocotronic - Aus Meiner Festung (Kapitulation)

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08-19-2007 at 10:13 AM
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Beef Row wrote:
I'd actually like this even though I see color fully. While the diffrences between the 3 plates are obvious if I see them next to each other, I never remember which is which very well, so a little hint like that would be great.

There's texture differences in them already that can be easily remembered.

Multi-use plates are bog-standard, and look a little plain. Toggle plates have a depressed circle texture on them, similar to a button. One use plates look worn, and have a number of irregular grooves around the edges, suggesting that they're almost broken.

The differences may be subtle, but they are there and have a logic to them when you think about them.
08-19-2007 at 11:19 AM
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Good Idea To Those peoples,who cant saw colors of world!(im In Wonderland)

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08-19-2007 at 03:20 PM
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calamarain
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All this is well and good. We know what needs to be changed, and we have ideas about what to change it to. The big question though - for this to be a feature rather than just a feature request... we need someone who's passable at pixel at (doesn't have to be brilliant), and who knows how to make a TCB theme.

Volunteers? I suspect you'd get modded up quite a lot if you do it :)

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08-19-2007 at 03:34 PM
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Someone Else is red-green colorblind, and he's never once complained. But he'd be a good person to ask about it.
08-19-2007 at 05:09 PM
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calamarain
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coppro wrote:
Someone Else is red-green colorblind, and he's never once complained. But he'd be a good person to ask about it.

Have done now. Also, have been wikipediaing a bit about colourblindness :) It's... fascinating, to say the least. Red/green wouldn't affect DRODding that much, but blue-yellow would do quite badly.

Damn you all. I am wasting my evening on wikipedia now!

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[Last edited by calamarain at 08-19-2007 06:02 PM]
08-19-2007 at 05:56 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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I'm green blind (according to a bundeswehr-physican) but I haven't any problems with Drod, nor with any other game/application. The only problem I have is distinguishing colours that nearly look the same.
08-19-2007 at 06:10 PM
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Yeah, I'm pretty much the same (darker reds/greens look the same to me, so I have a hard time finding things like raspberries or strawberries in bushes), and my problem is with rock golems and goblins. I have often mistaken green sister gates for down yellow doors, but I don't think that is due to color-blindness.
08-20-2007 at 02:31 PM
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calamarain
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Someone Else wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty much the same (darker reds/greens look the same to me, so I have a hard time finding things like raspberries or strawberries in bushes), and my problem is with rock golems and goblins. I have often mistaken green sister gates for down yellow doors, but I don't think that is due to color-blindness.

Goblins and golems are quite similar in texture?

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08-20-2007 at 02:50 PM
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Well, I wouldn't say green and red look similar. Not at all . . . but, then again, what about my theory that we all see colors differently? Like my green is somebody else's orange?

Oh, well.


I like the idea of making a style for it. Then they can just download the mod and change all the lines to stuff like City=colorblind and Iceworks=colorblind.

Actually, I might add a ;Colorblind and a Colorblind=colorblind myself, because it's sounding pretty good.


I say move this to development!

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08-20-2007 at 04:33 PM
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Kwakstur wrote:
Well, I wouldn't say green and red look similar. Not at all...
Well, duh. That might simply be caused by a lack of colorblindness on your part...

but, then again, what about my theory that we all see colors differently? Like my green is somebody else's orange?
That won't fly either - or when was the last time someone said to you that the grass is more orange on the other side? ;)

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