Nuntar
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With the release of TSS imminent, I've been discussing with mrimer the possibility of an updated KDD for the DROD 5 engine. The main point is to use the new scripted challenge feature to make the existing KDD challenges "official" so players can compete for them. In fact, I've already done this part -- I've made a copy of the hold and scripted ninety-three achievements, mostly taken from the Challenges board, including classics like not using the alcove in that First Level room.

There is the issue that rooms would be duplicated with KDD 2.0. One way round that would be to make this an update of KDD 2.0, but that's problematic because it will only be playable in DROD 5. Another solution would be to make it a separate hold, with all rooms non-scorable (but it would of course include scoring for challenges). Any thoughts on this issue would be welcome.

I hope this is going to become the new version of KDD that will be recommended to new players (who have the DROD 5 engine). Because of that, I want to make it as smooth a playing experience as possible, while still keeping it authentic to Erik's game design. (And I don't mean to sound like I'm taking charge of this; I just happened to have some free time to do the challenge scripting.) So, here are some ideas for changes to make to the hold -- let's have some discussion about which of these to include, as well as any other changes you'd like to see!

* Use all twelve room styles, for two levels each
* Use the different floor types
* Add checkpoints to rooms that need them
* Add conquer tokens (which rooms?) to avoid having to solve puzzles twice in Level 15
* Skip Level 13 by default, but have it accessible by the warp room
* Remove the backwards stairs from the warp rooms, and replace them with forwards stairs to other levels
* Designate the unrequired rooms, editor-only rooms and warp rooms as secret rooms (and make the editor-only rooms accessible)

Another idea I had is to duplicate some rooms or levels and add the new weapons and other gameplay features. Those could be added as new secret rooms, though it may be best to turn that idea into a separate project.

Please let us know what you think about all this

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Schik
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Whoa, cool! I'd had this same idea but hadn't brought it up because I didn't want to add to the pile of stuff for us to do, and figured we could do it later. But awesome if you've done it.

Nuntar wrote:
There is the issue that rooms would be duplicated with KDD 2.0. One way round that would be to make this an update of KDD 2.0, but that's problematic because it will only be playable in DROD 5. Another solution would be to make it a separate hold, with all rooms non-scorable (but it would of course include scoring for challenges). Any thoughts on this issue would be welcome.

The easy solution would be make it logically the same hold - same created & lastUpdated times - and I do some server trickery to make it so that if you're in TSS, it downloads the fancy 5.0 version.

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disoriented
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I like schik's suggestion. But, if that ends up not being the way to go, I think KDD 5.0 should be a hold update.

(Who would be unable to play the hold in the v5 engine?)

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robin
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I like this also, I also did some stuff on KDD 2.0 (like remapping and adding Neather graphics) And if you want I can be available for testing ans checking stuff.

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RabidChild
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I like the idea of updating room styles and adding challenges would be cool. JtRH had some (I think purely cosmetic) updates after TCB came out to take advantage of new features in 3.0, after all. I've always been a little disappointed that the Neather just looked like a random citizen in 2.0, so a graphical update there would be nice. With the advent of 5.0, it may be possible to recreate the Neather entirely through scripting as well. TFMurphy already came pretty close in The Neather's Lair.

All that said, I'm a little leery of actually making changes to room or level design. KDD may not be the greatest hold ever, but it is the first, and for historical reasons, probably shouldn't be messed with too much. I mean, there may not be a lot of people who love Level 13, but, like it or not, it's been a part of DROD from the beginning.

gamer_extreme_101
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Eh, I consider KDDL the best version of KDD to date. And it's free, too. They are pretty much designing it with the same principles in mind (I mean, play L13 and L15 in KDDL and tell me that isn't the right way to do things).

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robin
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RabidChild wrote:
I like the idea of updating room styles and adding challenges would be cool. JtRH had some (I think purely cosmetic) updates after TCB came out to take advantage of new features in 3.0, after all. I've always been a little disappointed that the Neather just looked like a random citizen in 2.0, so a graphical update there would be nice. With the advent of 5.0, it may be possible to recreate the Neather entirely through scripting as well. TFMurphy already came pretty close in The Neather's Lair.

All that said, I'm a little leery of actually making changes to room or level design. KDD may not be the greatest hold ever, but it is the first, and for historical reasons, probably shouldn't be messed with too much. I mean, there may not be a lot of people who love Level 13, but, like it or not, it's been a part of DROD from the beginning.

That "Neather's Lair" I used to implement the Neather's graphics in my KDD 2.0 version.
The only difference is that I started from scratch, so I don't have any spoken dialog.

But maybe for KDD 5.0 we could add some stuff from FlashDROD,
like the newly added secret rooms and/or mastery levels,
or add the new level 13 as a bonus/hidden level, and make them "DROD" size, to add a new challenge to the very first hold.
(And I have a KDD AE version that's almost an exact copy of the original, that we can use for old times' sake )


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Moo
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Yeah, KDDL/Flash DROD is basically KDD 3.0... It has achievements (challenges, in other words) and improvements to the more frustrating parts (including a nice new level 13).
The "bad" is that it uses smaller room sizes, so porting it to the standard engine as-is wouldn't be great. Maybe a hybrid of KDD 2.0 and KDDL would work?
Maybe yet another take on KDD would be good though. Then you don't have to worry about compatibility/overlap with KDDL.
Then there's the licensing issue... All KDD versions are freely available, except KDD 2.0, which is available as a separate game (using JtRH engine) and as a SS (but somehow this page isn't mentioned here).

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[Last edited by Moo at 06-10-2014 03:08 PM]

mrimer
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I'd be excited to see a KDD 5.0 come to fruition. I personally am in the camp of doing what Schik proposed: when a player is using 5.0, CaravelNet can perform some clever trickery to have the game download a new version of the KDD 2.0 hold. If he can do that, I'd say we're golden.

That being the case, I think we should update mostly aesthetics and add challenges, rather than any new rooms, revise puzzles or levels, etc. Sounds like Nuntar is already well on the way to having that done. Collaborating with Robin sounds like a good idea in order to get all the content in the hold that we want.

Nuntar, you're working on enhancing the KDD 2.0 hold and not the original KDD hold, correct? We would want to further enhance KDD 2.0 for this and not KDD 1.0.

KDD is a 17-year-old hold at this point. If we want new rooms, let's just release them as a new hold instead of duct taping them onto the original hold and making that one ever more cumbersome to maintain.

Moo wrote:
Then there's the licensing issue... All KDD versions are freely available, except KDD 2.0, which is available as a separate game (using JtRH engine) and as a SS (but somehow this page isn't mentioned here).

Sorry, I don't understand. What licensing issue are you referring to here?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-10-2014 08:00 PM]

Moo
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Well, if it is an official update, and downloadable only by those who already have KDD2.0 SS, then there's no issue.

Zaratustra00
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This is a long shot, but does the custom challenge stuff allow for editing of rooms? Turns out some rooms in KDD are quite interesting if you replace all the roaches with goblins.

Schik
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I agree with Mike that this would be best as a KDD2 replacement when you're playing in the 5.0 engine. We can obviously point people to KDDL if we want them to play KDDL.

As such, it's important that every demo that works in <5.0 works in the 5.0 version as well. We can't add rooms. We can't fix the 'Neather problems (other than visuals).

Down the road when we have a release candidate, I can run all of the demos on CaravelNet against it to make sure nothing was broken.

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mrimer
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Zaratustra00 wrote:
This is a long shot, but does the custom challenge stuff allow for editing of rooms? Turns out some rooms in KDD are quite interesting if you replace all the roaches with goblins.

Maybe I'm not understanding completely. No, challenges don't mean rooms can be edited. I guess anyone could publish their own KDD rooms with goblins instead of roaches.

____________________________
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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-10-2014 08:01 PM]

slimm tom
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This sounds like a great idea! I'm agreeing with Mike and Schik that it should be an upgrade on top of the existing hold.

Schik
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You can't swap out roaches for goblins, but... say a previously inaccessible square was opened up, and a script watched for the player to enter that square, and scripting added monsters or changed them (I don't know if this can happen?) then the only way it would break old demos is if someone bumped into that square that used to be a wall.

A better way to do it that couldn't break demos would be great though.

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hyperme
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Schik wrote:
A better way to do it that couldn't break demos would be great though.

Would the special command work? Have some text to tell the player they can use the special command in the room, and if the press it, magic happens.

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Schik
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I think it would work as well as making new floor squares - people could have pressed the special key in demos made in GatEB, and then the spider would invalidate them unless they were *really* lucky.

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Nuntar
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The problem with magicking roaches into goblins is that the room would (nearly always) be easier and quicker to solve with roaches, so optimisers would have no incentive or reward for optimising the goblin version. I think it would be better to hang on to that idea and include it together with "KDD levels with the new weapons" in a separate project.

mrimer -- naturally I've been working in the original KDD; as I said in my PM to you, I don't have KDD 2.0 and even if I did, it's an official hold so I couldn't edit it I'm happy to help out with incorporating the challenges into KDD 2.0 (as that seems to be the direction consensus is taking) if you can find a way for me to do this. Otherwise, I could just pass on the hold as it stands to someone else. As I understand it, KDD 2.0 includes new secret rooms but the regular rooms are the same, so it shouldn't be too much hassle to copy and paste the challenge scripting.

Schik wrote: As such, it's important that every demo that works in <5.0 works in the 5.0 version as well. We can't add rooms. We can't fix the 'Neather problems (other than visuals).

That's a good point. Sorry for the n00b questions, but which of the following would be possible without breaking existing demos?

* Checkpoints. Some rooms in KDD definitely need them; I don't know whether this was fixed in KDD 2.0 already. Even if it was, there are rooms like L7 3N1E that have adequate checkpoints for KDD (1 or 2) purposes, but for KDD 5.0 should have additional checkpoints to make extremely hard challenges less frustrating.

* Adding conquer tokens to L15. EDIT: no, I realise that's impossible, whichever square the conquer token was placed on, anyone who didn't step on it would be screwed.

* Is it possible to re-designate previously non-scorable rooms as scorable? If so, we could add conquer tokens to the rooms in L11 without monsters.

* I'm one of those who loves the original Level 13, but some people really hate it, which is why I suggested reconfiguring the stairs so it's skipped by default (but you can still access it). However, the Level 13 from KDDL is really awesome and I like the idea of including it as a bonus level. Is there any way that could be done?

* Level 16 1S is only solvable from the west. The challenge in this room is to enter from the east and kill all the roaches. I thought of adding a mimic potion so that the player is rewarded by being able to solve the room as well. That shouldn't affect existing demos, it would just allow additional possibilities.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 06-10-2014 09:43 PM]

Schik
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Nuntar wrote:
The problem with magicking roaches into goblins is that the room would (nearly always) be easier and quicker to solve with roaches, so optimisers would have no incentive or reward for optimising the goblin version. I think it would be better to hang on to that idea and include it together with "KDD levels with the new weapons" in a separate project.

Ah, but changing them to goblins would be a *challenge*, not a way to optimize highscores.

* Checkpoints.

Should be fine.

* Adding conquer tokens (and green doors) to L15

Probably less fine.

* Is it possible to re-designate previously non-scorable rooms as scorable? If so, we could add conquer tokens to the rooms in L11 without monsters.

That would be possible.
It would mean forcing people to play in 5.0 if they want all the highscores. I'm probably fine with that, but not sure if anyone would have a problem with it.

* I'm one of those who loves the original Level 13, but some people really hate it, which is why I suggested reconfiguring the stairs so it's skipped by default (but you can still access it). However, the Level 13 from KDDL is really awesome and I like the idea of including it as a bonus level. Is there any way that could be done?

Nope, can't add any rooms to an existing hold.

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Moo
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Nuntar wrote:
I hope this is going to become the new version of KDD that will be recommended to new players (who have the DROD 5 engine).

For new players, playing this new KDD version before the TSS hold would seem like a good idea. This, along with not being able to change various things in order to avoid breaking KDD 2.0 demos/scores, suggests that it would be better as a new hold rather than an update to 2.0. That way, anything can be changed, anyone could download it easily, and you'd be free to take it in whatever direction you wanted. Perhaps basing it on KDDL rather than KDD2.0 would work. Or, instead of KDD2.0, it could be KDD1.0 redux.

karlpopper
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I love the idea of KDD2 being made more playable in the new engine. (Especially as I haven't actually finished yet, and the unlimited undo will be real helpful, I believe).

I'm cross-posting this additional idea I had (which would require server support, but not affect playability) so that
the "intended" room solutions get better exposure.

I had the idea because I was frustrated at not being able to see the original solutions for a room that could only be entered from the west, but could be later solved from the east.

karlpopper wrote:
I quite agree that devices could be added to the room to enforce the behavior, but that's why I said metadata.

There are some levels (L22 of JtRH, for example) where "passing through" a room is part of the level design, and I'm not proposing changing that, nor any other aspect of room play - that would be a huge imposition.

I was thinking of an attribute that one could add to an entrance called scorable. It wouldn't affect gameplay in any way, just the list of best demos. Or, maybe it would be better to have an attribute called non-scorable that may be applied to an entrance.

This could be applied post-hoc to a hold without any fear of changing the gameplay. So all the demos I currently see would be deemed invalid and not displayed in the high score list. What we'd see now id the first "real" solution: and then doubtless we'd get a flurry of action from the optimizers.

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[Last edited by karlpopper at 06-10-2014 11:27 PM : 501 views at 2104-06-10]

Jacob
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Some nice ideas definitely, and you've clearly put in a lot of thought into it.

However, I don't really like the idea of KDD 5.0, for a number of inter-related reasons.

We seem to have put KDD on a pedestal and keep making new versions of it.

Just to recap:
We have the in-built version in webfoot DROD then DROD:AE
The free version is also downloadable and can be imported into any engine.

Then we have KDD 2.0, which can be bought as a in-built version of DROD2.x (rather than having JtRH as the default hold), or can be bought as a standalone official hold to be imported into whichever DROD you have (2.0 and up)

Then, of all possible holds/levels to convert into a Flash version, we chose KDD, making Flash Drod aka KDD Lite.

On the holds board we have KDD First Level Remake and Dugan's Dungeon Revisited (as well as King Dugan's dugedion 2, King Dugans Tomb and king dungans lost ice castle.)

Why is this a problem? Certainly a lot of these have made great additions/changes/alternate versions of the original KDD rooms. But it gives the impression that KDD is a great hold, overshadowing many others. Storywise, it is certainly the start of the Beethro saga, but in terms of plot points, there are not many. Gameplay-wise it is ok, but not the best, and I would argue it is not the optimal introduction to DROD (although KDD Lite is a great improvement, which I will touch on later).

A newcomer to DROD would think: "wow, there are so many iterations of this one hold, and they have even remade it for DROD 5.0. It also comes before the other holds story-wise. This must be the one to try first...ew, 3 tar mothers...ew, trapdoors under tar...I QUIT"

Or maybe the newbie decides to start with KDD and enjoys it, and hears about these new challenges. "Why can't I get them to work? Why won't someone's demo of the challenge even import into my version to see what I am doing wrong?" "Oh, you're actually playing that exact same room in AE, or KDD 2.0, or KDD standalone imported in DROD 4.0, or whatever other permutation that could happen. You need to install a completely different version of the same hold and either export and import your player, or start all over again."

(Or:
"I don't want to play KDD 5.0 until I've played 1.0, 2.0 etc" "Why are the rooms in the 5th version, which I bought to play in DROD TSS, identical to those in the 2nd, which I bought to play in DROD JtRH")

Finally, as mentioned about, KDD Lite is not only more accessible (in that it can be played in a browser without installation or hold importing), it is free and also has many great features that KDD 5.0 would/might offer (achievements, alternative level 13, lack of the need to repeat rooms in level 15, improvement on many of the less fun rooms, more bonus/secret rooms....)

Sorry to act like such a buzzkill but I really feel that yet another KDD would confuse new players and unnecessarily increase the prominence of KDD relative to other holds. It would also be redundant in the presence of KDD Lite.

I can't really see what a new deluxe version of KDD would offer over say, a new deluxe version of any of these holds, or JtRH or TCB. Or even just an entirely new well designed hold that encorporates the elements and functionality of DROD 5.0.

(before you comment, I get that it would not be a separate hold, but an update of the existing hold, but I think that all these points still stand).

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[Last edited by Jacob at 06-10-2014 11:56 PM]

Schik
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Jacob wrote:
I can't really see what a new deluxe version of KDD would offer over say, a new deluxe version of any of these holds, or JtRH or TCB. Or even just an entirely new well designed hold that encorporates the elements and functionality of DROD 5.0.

For the record, I'm cool with 5.0-specific versions of those holds with Challenges as well.

I think the confusion potential is pretty minimal - "5.0 and above support challenges." I don't really see this as a new version, and I wouldn't call it KDD 5.0. It's not *another* KDD. It's KDD 2.0. But in the 5.0 engine, it supports challenges. If that's more confusing than before, it's only very slightly so.

The reason to do KDD before those other holds is because someone already took the initiative to DO it. And because there are tons and tons of challenges for it on the forum.

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Nuntar
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Jacob wrote: Sorry to act like such a buzzkill but I really feel that yet another KDD would confuse new players and unnecessarily increase the prominence of KDD relative to other holds. It would also be redundant in the presence of KDD Lite.

There is some overlap in the challenges/achievements, but KDD has a large number of interesting challenges that aren't in KDD Lite, and this would give them official recognition.

I can't really see what a new deluxe version of KDD would offer over say, a new deluxe version of any of these holds, or JtRH or TCB. Or even just an entirely new well designed hold that encorporates the elements and functionality of DROD 5.0.

I'm working on a new hold, though I can't say whether it's well-designed or not To be honest, I only started this because I was stuck on a room I was building, and the longer I was stuck on it, the more the feeling of frustration made it impossible to work on it. So I needed to do this, to allow the DROD-creative part of my brain a chance to relax and recharge.

As for "why KDD?"... it consists almost entirely of "open" puzzles, which offers plenty of scope for challenges. I found 93, after weeding out those that were trivial, uninteresting, tedious, obscurely described, awkward to script, or even simply impossible to complete. JtRH currently has 52 challenges on the forum, and I haven't done any looking through to see how many fall into those "bad" categories. All other holds come a long way behind. That's partly because KDD and JtRH are the oldest and best-known holds, but it's also because most of the best holds are done in a much less challenge-amenable style.

But I'd love to help with updating JtRH and TCB next I started with KDD, of course, because it's editable.

Anyway, I think new players, if they get to enjoy DROD, are going to want to play KDD sooner or later, so I don't see the harm in improving their experience when they do.

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karlpopper
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+1 for formalizing the challenges in the other official holds with the new engine feature.

Unless you are mxmvladi you devote a large number of DROD hours to solving the puzzles (he just devotes large numbers of seconds) and you get attached to the places you've kicked about in for so long.

I really enjoyed revisiting and mastering, then post-mastering JtRH, and having more reasons to go back in and polish with extra challenges is appealing to me.



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Fang
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I think I went the least far in terms of progress in JtRH compared to all the other holds. If there's any hold I'd really like a remake of in 5.0, it would be that one to be honest. I've never finished either it or KDD, but I got too addicted to TCB, and since TCB has more "quality of life" improvements over KDD and JtRH, I never got around to buying the first two. By Quality of Life, I mean checkpoints, functionality, the fact the story seems ever-more-present than once every 4 or 5 levels and such. (Not to mention it seemed the tar/mud puzzles were less bothersome, if we don't mention Abyssian Fortress on top of that.)

I know the "story" "QoL" improvement won't really be fixed, because a remake isn't a re-think(?) of a game but only an update to have it be on the same level quality-wise than the latest release, but there's a good potential for the other stuff to be brought on-par with TSS's quality.

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gamer_extreme_101
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I did have a huge post about how I'm against it, but I thought of a different angle that I'll approach:

Instead of looking for a bunch of new fancy features, can't we do a demake now that we have 4.0+ remakes of the original AE styles? Simply change all the rooms to be using those styles instead? I think that would honestly be using the 5.0 engine for the best it can do, and we can make it compatable with (3.0?)4.0 and above instead of just 5.0.

If we can't do any functional changes, make it as true to the original version as possible. Otherwise, I'm with Jacob on this one.

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Banjooie
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I think it'd be really cool if we did something with literally any other set of levels besides King Dugan's Dungeon.

I mean.

Just once.

I'm not saying forever, we can absolutely go back to remaking KDD in like a minute but like--

what if we remade Journey to Rooted Hold

skell
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I agree with Jacob here. The reason Flash DROD is basically KDD Lite is exactly because KDD is really mediocre hold by nowadays standard, so it's a way of saying "You can play this pimped up version instead of the old one, and then go and hang out in JtRH or something". Wouldn't it be better to completely rebuild KDD from scratch to create a new hold? Replacing all and every puzzle room with a better one and call it "King Dugan's Dungeon Retconned"?

And I don't agree with "KDD has a large number of interesting challenges that aren't in KDD Lite". When we were working on KDDL we've used the master list of challenges to incorporate as many as possible, and we weeded out only those which were impossible or not engaging in the Lite version .

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robin
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
I did have a huge post about how I'm against it, but I thought of a different angle that I'll approach:

Instead of looking for a bunch of new fancy features, can't we do a demake now that we have 4.0+ remakes of the original AE styles? Simply change all the rooms to be using those styles instead? I think that would honestly be using the 5.0 engine for the best it can do, and we can make it compatable with (3.0?)4.0 and above instead of just 5.0.

I recently made a KDD AE version for 4.0 using those roomstyles and music:

http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=36006




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