hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
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Nuntar wrote:
Apologies to hyperme for not bringing this up before, but I didn't like 1S4W in its submitted form, and since he doesn't seem to be responding at the moment I went ahead and changed it. The problem was that it gave you a huge stash for the pickaxe, with no other way to access it; but (1) I don't like the accessories having such a clear and obvious place where they should be used, and (2) it made 4W (a lesser reward for using the pickaxe) pointless. I've changed the room by lowering the reward and adding two further ways to access it.

Well at least my other rooms don't have this problem
Also, I'll try and come up with filler. just an idea, but couldn't you do something like the Store Horror room, only with keys instead of monsters? Since there are 3 rooms left, a key, monster and greckle version could work.

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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Sure, why not. If you think you can make a good filler room along those lines, go ahead and add it.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Uhm, guys. You do know that the last level gets really easy if you use the Warp Token to bypass the three black doors in The Ruined Gatehouse 3S7W, right? I don't think that it's good, since it makes the last level kind of pointless.

Edit: I see you do know that. Anyway... You CAN get back. Just use the pick-axe to bypass the first door, the portable orb to bypass the second door, and then use the warp token to bypass the last door, and a portable orb, which you purchase for REP to open it afterwards, and go get the flippers. My stats using this solution:

26507/596/724/13888GR/42/13/3/3 plus two elexirs, one flippers, one portable bomb, and three items from the REP-merchant. In what way will this prevent me from getting the "good ending"?

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 03-19-2010 11:07 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
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File: hypermes Nameless Fortress Filler Life.drh (65.5 KB)
Downloaded 43 times.
License: Public Domain

Sticking in some red doors should fix that.

Edit: Filler rooms.

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[Last edited by hyperme at 03-19-2010 04:49 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: Nameless Fortress.drh (65.9 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

OK -- Level 8 is complete!

As suggested, I've added red doors to 7:3S7W, which hopefully will fix the problem Blondbeard highlighted.

I've added hyperme's new rooms, with a few changes to make them, in my opinion, a little better balanced. (Note that there is no orthosquare under the third Greckle Sink from the top.) I'm not sure about 1N, the monsters room; two of the monsters have DEF 500 and I'm not sure what sort of ATK the player is likely to be able to get during play of this level now that the exit from Level 7 has been fixed. Any advice on this room would be welcome.

I also changed 1N slightly to make there be a purpose to killing the Aumtlich in Entrance.

I also fixed a big problem I just noticed with the REP merchant. He didn't actually subtract from your REP, so could be used as a source of infinite health! Also, the choices as they appeared to the player included 500 HP for 1000 REP, but the script used 10000 REP as the value to check whether the player had enough before completing the purchase. I've made this consistent by making it 10000 for both, since 500 for 1000 seems to me too generous. Again, input on this would be welcome; I haven't played through the hold (around Level 4 it gets much too difficult for me) so I don't know how much REP the player is likely to have at the start or end of the level, and I can't remember whether there are any other REP merchants in the hold.

Next, I'm ready to start working on the ending level, but I'd really like it if one or two of you would play through Level 8 as it is to check for any faults, any suggestions you might want to make, and to check on the points raised above and whether the boss's stats seem okay.

Good luck, and thanks again to everyone who helped. Can't believe we finally made it this far!

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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File: Davids Nameless Fortress.drh (65.7 KB)
Downloaded 40 times.
License: Public Domain

The last level seems to have one huge problem now, which is that it's very difficult to travel through. Now that the filler rooms doesn't connect in east-weastern direction the only way to get to the weastern part of the level is to pass the greckle-gates in 2N3W, and then you can't return due to the S-pointing arrow. The only way to return to the eastern part is to use the tunnel in 2S3W.

You could sacrifice an acessory to open a way that wasn't initially there, in fact you almost have to. I think the easiest fix would be to rotate the northweastern tunnel in 2S3W 180 degrees, so that you can step south if you stand on it. As it is now you only use the tunnel if you try to step S, and S is the only direction you can try to step.

I would also like some conection between 1N1W and 1N2W. This coudl be fixed with tunnels, without breaking 1N2W. Here's my prefered fix. I've only made changes to the previous filler-rooms, and 2S3W.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 03-20-2010 08:02 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: Nameless Fortress.drh (65.9 KB)
Downloaded 39 times.
License: Public Domain

Good points. I've fixed the tunnel problem and made connections between the filler rooms.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Why is Gray Strides, the last boss, such a whimp? 420/800/440 is nothing. He's less dangerous than most of the monsters down there after the multiplying.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Okay. If you can tell me your stats both on FIRST reaching the boss room and after playing the rest of the level, I'll beef him up a bit.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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At the end of the level: 32346/874/902/42/10/1/3. And one unused elexir.

At the first time I reach the boss: 918/571/536/15/4/2/2. The health is kind of irrelevant, since I can pick up lots of potions.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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File: Nameless Fortress.drh (65.9 KB)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

Oh. Wow. That is a LOT better than I was expecting.

In this version I've bumped his stats up considerably; with your final stats you'll still have no problems beating him, but he does at least mean you'll have to play through some of the level before tackling him, and hopefully players who are not quite of the Blondbeard standard will find him difficult. I'd appreciate feedback from at least one more player before this goes to Holds.

I've also noticed that, for some reason (a bug?), custom monsters aren't affected by _MonsterHPMult, so I've rejigged Asha's script to double his HP artificially when you hit the orb. In the final version, I'm going to add a reward for skipping Asha and going back and beating his stat-doubled version, now that you've proved it possible

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Why should you be rewarded for skipping Asha the first time you meet him? Anyway the stats on the final boss seems fine.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Sorry, that was ambiguous. Not a reward in the sense of improving your final score if you do it that way, just an easter egg or something.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Ah! Alright then.

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
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Gray Strides doesn't activate the orb, so you can skip right past him. Also, the player can use a Portable Orb to skip the last door anyway.
Sorry I haven't tested earlier, I've been really busy. Also, I won't be able to test any more until Tuesday, since I'll be away.

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[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 03-31-2010 11:40 AM]

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
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After beating the boss:


Note that these stats do not take into account the moving of the Big Seep in L7 1N2W. I just can't bring myself to re-test all of L7 again with that seep moved (since it would make L7 a lot harder.)

Edit: Oh, and I should probably mention that these stats would be a lot bigger if I had realised that waltzing into 2N2W with >4000 HP was not a good idea.

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[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 04-09-2010 05:48 AM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

I'm playing through the latest version of this hold from a new playthrough, starting at the beginning. I'm currently working on the Ruined Gatehouse and I'll let you guys know how difficult I find the final boss to be.

EDIT:

OK, I think I've successfully gotten the Bad Ending to the hold, if I've read this thread correctly. I used the Warp Token to get into the Nameless Fortress without hitting the stat-doubling orb.

(You might want to add another scroll by that orb that states that the Warp Token is not necessary to complete the hold, but is useful for a better ending.)

Furthermore, in Nameless Fortress 2S4W, the character at (12, 14), which is supposed to be a Defense Badge, is actually an Attack Badge, meaning that when you buy a Defense Badge you get an Attack Badge.

I'll have more useful commentary later.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-10-2010 02:52 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thanks, Stew Boy and Chaco.

I'm really just posting to let everyone know I'm still here, and although I haven't built the ending yet it definitely will get done, so any time you put into playtesting this isn't wasted!

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50th Skywatcher

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
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I'm still working on beating the hold legitimately (by not using the Warp Token to bypass the stat-doubling orb). I have a problem to raise, though, that I found while playtesting.

In Nameless Fortress 1N2W, the Greckle Sink characters work fine, except for the fact that when they subtract more greckles from the player than he actually has, he just goes into greckle debt and can't open any greckle gates or make any other payments until he "pays it off" and gets a positive amount again. I don't think this was intended since it lets the player take everything in that room without much of a visible penalty.

Perhaps those monsters could be reprogrammed so the player can't kill them or otherwise remove them unless he has the requisite amount of greckles?

==

Otherwise, the level is pretty good right now, although I haven't solved it yet and it's being fairly challenging in a fun way. I started out with the following statistics when I hit the stat-doubling orb:

HP: 425 (with a lot, a lot of health lying around waiting for me to pick it up)
ATK: 524
DEF: 461
GR: 2970
REP: 37310
Keys: 2/0/5/1

(no accessories used yet; the pickaxe, invisibility potion, portable orb and elixir are all available and I can buy the hand bomb for one yellow key)

These seem to be along the same lines as or better than what some other people entered the level with, although I suspect Blondbeard probably figured out a way to do things better than I did. My strategy was basically to completely clean out the first seven levels and kill any monsters guarding anything of worth before I hit the orb, so I could pick up any health I needed later.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Okay, I conquered the hold again, and probably got the good ending, since I didn't use the warp token and saved two invisibility potions and two elixirs for the hold end. Those supplies could be useful in fighting some sort of bonus optional boss blocking some sort of secret extra-good ending or something like that.

The hardest part about the final level is probably getting started and getting the Really Big Sword. After that I didn't find it to be too bad; indeed the final boss doesn't do too much damage compared to all the health lying around, so there's a lot of room for error or health loss to Aumtlich or hot tiles or similar.

==

Here were my statistics just before fighting Gray Strides:

HP: 19502
ATK: 882
DEF: 806
Keys: 22/1/4/2
GR: 4151
REP: 67066

==

Overall, I think this hold stands well on its own, with an appropriate difficulty level. The Disused Sewers and the Nameless Fortress (and probably the Broken Stairwell) are notable increases in difficulty, but I found them to be manageable.

Once the endings are put in this hold is probably good to go.

(Did Nuntar mention earlier he was going to put in more of a story? I recall there was a reason the ferryman was named "Charon" beyond just for the sake of making a shout-out, but perhaps I was mistaken.)

____________________________
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hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Trickster wrote:
people are working on HA3

Hahaha

Haha



Anyhow Nuntar disappeared into the void, taking all the permissions and progress with him I guess.

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hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Trickster wrote:

hyperme wrote:

Trickster wrote:
people are working on HA3

Hahaha

Haha



Anyhow Nuntar disappeared into the void, taking all the permissions and progress with him I guess.

Permissions, shmermissions. This should be reset to the last available state and continued with whatever we have available. If he contributed on a collaborative hold, that implies consent to continue the collaboration after he exits.

I'm not certain I understand why this is so complicated...

Because everyone was silly when we made these things, we forgot to put a "playing means you consent for this to be Hold Boarded if the Hold gets finished" thingy. Which means you need to re-get permissions for a two-year old project.

Which is *really* annoying, because we'd nearly finished before Nuntar vanished!

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Trickster
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 662
Registered: 07-03-2007
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hyperme wrote:Because everyone was silly when we made these things, we forgot to put a "playing means you consent for this to be Hold Boarded if the Hold gets finished" thingy. Which means you need to re-get permissions for a two-year old project.

Which is *really* annoying, because we'd nearly finished before Nuntar vanished!

1) Nothing on the forum says that rights are retained by each member of a collective when a hold is openly distributed in beta as "anyone edit". In other parts of the forum it is clear that "posting ideas means anyone can use them because that's how the world works". If Nuntar cared about this he shouldn't (and obviously wouldn't) have posted a collaborative edit in public where anybody can download it.

2) Even if you want to make a scene about 1, which seems completely ridiculous to me, then we should simply remove Nuntar's edits or modify them beyond recognition and then salvage what remains. The idea that we can't use a perfectly good hold because someone who was working on it died seems like the least intelligent kind of blind adherence to policy, especially since Caravel owns all rights to RPG, period.

I mean, give me a break. Caravel Forum is not Brazil (the movie, not the nation).

____________________________
Trickster

Official Hold Progress
Favorite Unofficial Holds (I need to play more!)
My Holds

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3407
Registered: 09-10-2005
IP: Logged

Trickster wrote:
I mean, give me a break. Caravel Forum is not Brazil (the movie, not the nation).

To be fair, we did try pretty hard in that direction a while back.

Also, that smiley's mine. Give it back.

EDIT: But yeah, one would think publication permission would be implicit in this sort of thing, unless some official mucketymuck wants to step in to veto it.

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[Last edited by Dischorran at 02-24-2012 09:49 PM]

Dischorran
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3407
Registered: 09-10-2005
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Trickster wrote:To be fair, we did try pretty hard in that direction a while back.

You tried what? Dental torture on Jonathan Pryce?Extreme plumbing.

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mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5058
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I say continue working on the hold as-is. If Nuntar comes back and says he didn't want things done that way, I will take full responsibility.

Edit: I now recall that I've had some past conversations with Nuntar. He loves DROD RPG, and I bet he'd want the hold to be completed even if he's not currently active on the forum.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 02-26-2012 01:47 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Eh, I guess I could fix up the problems add some endings containing shocking twists! Or tresure, if you used the Warp Token. Also hilarious comedy ending that may not be funny.

I've fixed some things already, but there might be a few issues left. So somebody test this thing, because I'm bad at DROD RPG.

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Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

I'll test it. Which version should I test?

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1070
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

File: Nameless Fortress.drh (57.7 KB)
Downloaded 43 times.
License: Public Domain

Well, here's a version attached. with Greckle Sinks fixed. No endings yets.

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The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

It would certainly help me test if DROD worked on my 64bit Windows 7 machine. Anyone know what's wrong? It just shows the loading screen and then 'drod.exe has stopped working', even with all the compatibility settings set.