cbemom
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So when did Caravel and crew start charging for checkpoints? - It just seems that a lot of the recently released holds lack checkpoints. I'm a moderate player at best, and easily frustrated when I have to start a room from the beginning.

So is it a major trend, or just a plot against middlin' players

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[Last edited by cbemom at 11-13-2006 04:47 PM]

bandit1200
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It's a conspiracy against us that aren't part of the elite. You know, those players who have no need of such things. Mind you, we have a good ally in Larrymurk, who, whilst being a great architect and player, is an advocate of checkpoints, amongst other things that make the game better without detracting from the puzzles.

Seriously, it's probably that they simply get forgotten, or the architect is the type of player who thinks checkpoints are cheating - gasp! yes, they do exist. But yes, I have also noticed less checkpoints recently.

NiroZ
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The problem is that everyone has their own different style and difficulty level. One man's hell is another man's gentle walk.

However I must agree with you that there are architects who seem to have a strong allergy to checkpoints.

Jatopian
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I like Larry Murk.

bandit1200 wrote:
Seriously, it's probably that they simply get forgotten, or the architect is the type of player who thinks checkpoints are cheating - gasp! yes, they do exist. But yes, I have also noticed less checkpoints recently.

I've seen some put the checkpoints on trapdoors so they can't be re-used. I could name names, but I won't... yet.

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larrymurk
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I remember the dark days when we had no undo. Sad days indeed.

Then I remember Michthro's unlimited undo hack. I'd have to say playing with unlimited undo was sweet fun. You still get the enjoyment of solving puzzles without the annoyance of worrying about checkpoints. Ouch, it hurt the next day when I uninstalled the hack and pressing undo only worked for 1 move again (even though I kept pressing it).

Jatopian
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larrymurk wrote:
Then I remember Michthro's unlimited undo hack. I'd have to say playing with unlimited undo was sweet fun. You still get the enjoyment of solving puzzles without the annoyance of worrying about checkpoints. Ouch, it hurt the next day when I uninstalled the hack and pressing undo only worked for 1 move again (even though I kept pressing it).

What? Don't leave us hanging like that! Where is it, and does it work for JtRH, and why did you uninstall it?

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larrymurk
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Uninstalled because:

1. It is not "supported" by caravelnet. So if you have any problem with DROD at all, they might just say "we really don't want to work on fixing your problem when you have unsupported code that might be causing the problem."

2. People might not be happy with the uneven playing field if some people used the patch. I guess one could just spin the 'ol sword 100 moves before exitting each room to overcome this though.

Tahnan
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I do admire (and, at the same time, somewhat loathe) those architects who put checkpoints a few steps off the straight path in their rooms. Convenient for people trying to solve the hold; no help at all to intense optimizers. Oh, how many times I've asked myself, "Do I want to save my progress, even though it will cost me a few moves?"

But, seriously: checkpoints.

NiroZ
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Tahnan wrote:
I do admire (and, at the same time, somewhat loathe) those architects who put checkpoints a few steps off the straight path in their rooms.

Yeah, I HATE those rooms.

Why? Mainly because these checkpoints happen to be in rooms that focus on efficiency(well, the ones I have noticed anyway). Now, checkpoints, I believe, are there to stop you from repeating the same steps multiple times.
Now, if they put them in places where you are not sure you will be able to finish the room due to the tight time limit, or you can't get them because you are trying for a high score, they shouldn't be there at all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate just spreading checkpoints everywhere, or shoving them down your face, but if your not going to use checkpoints properly, why use them at all? Its just going to end up frustrating people IMHO.

Briareos
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NiroZ wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate just spreading checkpoints everywhere, or shoving them down your face, but if your not going to use checkpoints properly, why use them at all? Its just going to end up frustrating people IMHO.

Yeah, if a room consists of several smaller rooms, connected by corridors - why not just put a checkpoint in the corridor?

Nothing is more frustrating than having to solve separated parts of a room over and over again because there's an ultra-hard part after several easier but still boring-to-slough-through-again parts...

np: Underworld - Lovely Broken Thing (RiverRun Project)

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Syntax
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larrymurk wrote:
Then I remember Michthro's unlimited undo hack.

Really?? As in... really??

I really hope this isn't being used by anyone... I spend hours doing things the "hard" way.

Really??

Today I am officially very disappointed

agaricus5
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NiroZ wrote:
Yeah, I HATE those rooms.

Why? Mainly because these checkpoints happen to be in rooms that focus on efficiency(well, the ones I have noticed anyway). Now, checkpoints, I believe, are there to stop you from repeating the same steps multiple times.
Now, if they put them in places where you ... can't get them because you are trying for a high score, they shouldn't be there at all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate just spreading checkpoints everywhere, or shoving them down your face, but if your not going to use checkpoints properly, why use them at all? Its just going to end up frustrating people IMHO.

I disagree with you. Solving a room is very different from optimising it. How does the hold author necessarily know what the most efficient solution is? If he/she did, then there would be no point in bothering with optimisation, since he/she would have optimised the rooms before you could get to play them. Because of this, it's highly unfair to suggest that an author should ensure checkpoints are on squares that are part of the optimised solution; which squares are part of the optimal solution?

Similarly, what if you find an optimal solution that uses a particular square, which does contain a checkpoint? Would you say that that checkpoint is well placed, and is an example of good design? Now what if someone else comes along (as someone probably will) and shaves 2 moves off by using a different square. Is the checkpoint that was originally in the "optimal" solution path now "useless"? Would you say that it ought not to have been there in the first place, as it now serves no purpose in optimisation?

I agree that checkpoints should be used to help in the solving of rooms. I do not, however, agree that they should be positioned with optimisers necessarily in mind; this is a separate problem that I think unlimited undo will help to solve better.

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michthro
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Syntax wrote:

larrymurk wrote:
Then I remember Michthro's unlimited undo hack.

Really?? As in... really??

I really hope this isn't being used by anyone... I spend hours doing things the "hard" way.

Really??

Today I am officially very disappointed

First of all, I don't use this myself (there's a reason I generally stay away from long rooms - I'm waiting for UU before trying to optimise them), and hope no-one else does (I actually doubt the mod still works with current versions). As soon as objections were raised I removed the mod, and refused to post it anywhere else or give it to anyone in private.

You can find the history of this here. Briefly: At the time I was trying to get UU to be made a feature. I saw this program by Lemures that, among other things, effectively gives you UU. I thought UU would be simpler, so I looked into it and posted a mod, thinking it would be ok. As I said, when it turned out not ok, I removed it.

eytanz
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agaricus5 wrote:

NiroZ wrote:
Yeah, I HATE those rooms.

Why? Mainly because these checkpoints happen to be in rooms that focus on efficiency(well, the ones I have noticed anyway). Now, checkpoints, I believe, are there to stop you from repeating the same steps multiple times.

I disagree with you. Solving a room is very different from optimising it.

Wesley - I think you are missing the point. As far as I can tell, NiroZ is complaining about rooms which have strict timing and have checkpoints placed such that if you go to the checkpoint, you cannot solve the room. Which is a very different thing than a checkpoint that's inconvenient for optimizers.

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Chaco
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Actually, what I'd recommend is something like this:

WAW.W
WW..W
WC..W
WW..W
WWWBW

in a north-south corridor. That way you can either avoid the checkpoint or get it without any penalty.

But yeah, I agree that checkpoints are for solving the room the intended way - if you want to go outside what the architect was thinking, how can you expect the architect to accommodate you?

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[Last edited by Chaco at 11-11-2006 03:15 PM]

cbemom
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I don't know that we really need unlimited undo.
The point was made in the UU thread that Michthro started that a choice of undo's would be useful - say up to five moves. That would help for most rooms.
Why would some players think of checkpoints as "cheating?" You don't HAVE to step on them if you like to make it harder.

eytanz
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The only reason people think of checkpoints as "cheating" is because webfoot DROD didn't have checkpoints.

But I don't really think that that's the problem with most recent holds. I may be wrong, but I don't think that most people who released holds recently (with one notable exception, who explicitly stated he was trying to be annoying) deliberately tried to leave out checkpoints so much as just didn't give the matter enough thought.

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bandit1200
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Syntax wrote:

larrymurk wrote:
Then I remember Michthro's unlimited undo hack.

Really?? As in... really??

I really hope this isn't being used by anyone... I spend hours doing things the "hard" way.

I know this hack isn't available, but if it was, why would it matter to you how others play as long as they are enjoying the game? Which is what it's all about.

I appreciate that you like to optimize and go for high scores the hard way, but I'm sure there are other lesser players like myself who don't care about scores and would love unlimited undo. And not just lesser players, I suspect.

More than a couple of people I introduced DROD to gave up early into the game, and guess what they said would have kept them interested? Yep, you got it.

Maybe it ought to be an option?

Briareos
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Chaco wrote:
Actually, what I'd recommend is something like this:

WAW.W
WW..W
WC..W
WW..W
WWWBW

in a north-south corridor. That way you can either avoid the checkpoint or get it without any penalty.

Well, since both stepping on the checkpoint or not doing it take the same number of steps *and* using the checkpoint doesn't change anything in the result for this room (other than that you have to hit "R" one extra time to get back to a previous checkpoint) I wonder why you'd want to do something like that instead of just putting the checkpoint in a one-tile wide corridor, which has the added bonus of leaving more room for other things...

If there's still someone around that actively dislikes checkpoints he or she can always disable checkpoints entirely on the settings screen...

np: Underworld - LittleSpeaker (AHundredDaysOff)

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eytanz
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bandit1200 wrote:

Syntax wrote:

larrymurk wrote:
Then I remember Michthro's unlimited undo hack.

Really?? As in... really??

I really hope this isn't being used by anyone... I spend hours doing things the "hard" way.

I know this hack isn't available, but if it was, why would it matter to you how others play as long as they are enjoying the game? Which is what it's all about.

I appreciate that you like to optimize and go for high scores the hard way, but I'm sure there are other lesser players like myself who don't care about scores and would love unlimited undo. And not just lesser players, I suspect.

More than a couple of people I introduced DROD to gave up early into the game, and guess what they said would have kept them interested? Yep, you got it.

Maybe it ought to be an option?

I think Syntax's point is about the highscores, not about what happens on other people's computers in the privacy of their homes.

But if someone wants to re-start the unlimited undo debates (and remember, DROD 3.0 will have unlimited undo for conquered rooms in conquered holds, which changes the picture anyway), could that person please start it in a different thread?

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Syntax
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Well... I'm disappointed from the point of view that there are high scores at stake. As previous posts have pointed out, I'd like to think the playing field was even. To think that some of the #1 battles I've had could be against someone with an unfair advantage makes me very unhappy.

Sure, most people probably don't care as much as I do about optimising rooms, but personally, I see unlimited undo as cheating.

In fact, the day it gets introduced to DROD is the day I stop playing.

The main problem with UU is that it eliminates the need for instinct, and unusual solutions would become common-place simply because everything becomes *triable* without the backfire of having to start again. When I play chess, I'll let my opponent move their piece back if they made a stupid move. I wouldn't, however, go further back than that in the game. Making mistakes is part of learning, and understanding movement order and why roaches gap for example would become obsolete. DROD is a hard game to play, but even harder to master... UU would make the latter meaningless.

As for people who give up DROD because they find it too hard... well, there are plenty of other games out there. Seriously. I was never a Webfoot DROD player, but refused to use undo whilst completing JtRH. Maybe that's over the top, but rooms remain as solveable with as without Undo, and 1 is more than enough. In my opinion.

Having UU as an option doesn't even work in theory. High scores would be affected since once a room had been completed with it on, it becomes easy enough to mimic it with it off (that's assuming high scores would be disabled if it was on in the first place). Besides, demos could be hacked to spoof it being off.

I dunno... Beethro is human, and so are we. The concept of undo shouldn't even exist.

[EDIT]

Aplogies Eytanz. Post collision. Your point is right, and I agree this should be re-threaded if anyone wants to carry on the dicussion. I've said my piece.

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[Last edited by Syntax at 11-11-2006 05:27 PM]

Blondbeard
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Syntax wrote:
Well... I'm disappointed from the point of view that there are high scores at stake. As previous posts have pointed out, I'd like to think the playing field was even. To think that some of the #1 battles I've had could be against someone with an unfair advantage makes me very unhappy.

Sure, most people probably don't care as much as I do about optimising rooms, but personally, I see unlimited undo as cheating.

In fact, the day it gets introduced to DROD is the day I stop playing.

I hope you don't mean that Because UU will appear in TCB for completed rooms in conquered holds

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[Last edited by mrimer at 11-12-2006 08:42 PM]

Tahnan
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NiroZ wrote:
Now, if they put them in places where you are not sure you will be able to finish the room due to the tight time limit, or you can't get them because you are trying for a high score, they shouldn't be there at all.

These are two different things, and I agree with the first and disagree with the second.

The first one is of course ridiculous: a checkpoint in a place that using it means not finishing the room is no use at all. (Though, can you give an example of such a room? I can't actually think of any.)

But the second: Wesley covered a number of problems with this (note to Eytanz: the excerpt Wesley bolded does, I think, indicate that NiroZ's point was in part exactly what Wesley was responding to). Beyond that, though, I don't see why the architect should make things easier for optimizers. Perhaps because, to my mind, DROD is about solving the puzzles and following the plot; high scores are a lagniappe, available for those who care.

agaricus5
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Syntax wrote:
Aplogies Eytanz. Post collision. Your point is right, and I agree this should be re-threaded if anyone wants to carry on the dicussion. I've said my piece.

I replied to the UU discussion here

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NiroZ
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agaricus5 wrote:
Because of this, it's highly unfair to suggest that an author should ensure checkpoints are on squares that are part of the optimised solution; which squares are part of the optimal solution?

Very true, but I was more responding examples like

|----R|
|     |
|X___B|

R= Roach
X=Checkpoint
B=Beethro

This, where to use a checkpoint, one is forced to become inefficient in order to use a checkpoint.
To demand that a Architect try and predict what the most optimised solution to a room will be is utterly ridiculous, and I apologise if my post indicated that.

Mattcrampy
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I don't think anyone mentioned this, but the UU hack isn't compatible with CaravelNet. So there aren't any highscores with UU. (Turns out this may not be the case. I thought the hack was a recompile of the source code. Turns out that's not the case, so I'm once again talking out my ear.)

I usually place checkpoints by playing through the room and seeing where I would really like the ability to save - usually, it's after things I don't want to do again and before things I'll probably have to do again.

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 11-12-2006 01:33 AM]

bandit1200
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Syntax wrote:

I dunno... Beethro is human

What? Are you serious?

bandit1200
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eytanz wrote:I think Syntax's point is about the highscores, not about what happens on other people's computers in the privacy of their homes.

Heh, I don't think we should go there.

Tahnan
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NiroZ wrote:
Very true, but I was more responding examples like

|----R|
|     |
|X___B|

R= Roach
X=Checkpoint
B=Beethro

This, where to use a checkpoint, one is forced to become inefficient in order to use a checkpoint.

But: why is this a bad thing?

coppro
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That´s the thing. I personally see no reason to put checkpoints out of the way simply to make highscores harder. Especially with TCB´s unlimited undo. Your average player is normally unconcerned about highscores, and the player who is will just finish the hold first (they´ve played through most of them anyways, remember that).