Oneiromancer
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Actually, with UU enabled all the time, you tend to die more often, because you blindly rush into things and can easily extricate yourself from it. (And deaths that you undo from count in the stat menu when you press Enter, regardless of if you are using normal undo or UU.) Although, that does give me an idea. You can either have 1-move undo, where you can undo from a death, or you have unlimited undo, but you can't recover from a death. It might just keep enough challenge to make it viable...or maybe it defeats the entire purpose.

Game on,

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 02-09-2006 11:36 PM]

StuartK
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Well then you're just careful never to actually die. The only case I can think of where undo-experimentation leads to a sky-high deathcount is with wraithwing hordes. So that wouldn't be affected, but all other rooms would.

IMO we've got enough options already to rescue ourselves. My vote is for status quo. Veterans and newcomers alike would use any new options - it would only lead to holds being optimised faster, and a lessening of the possibily of a newcomer becoming a veteran - the barrier would be too high/unrewarding to scale.

Which reminds me, I was impressed when twice recently (first being Michthro, second another newcomer) someone has come along and grabbed a whole bunch of first places for JtRH (a very optimised hold) With unlimited undo, it's quite possible Rabs and myself (and Kevin, Agaricus5, Bibelot, ...) would have largely prevented that from happening.

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[Last edited by StuartK at 02-09-2006 11:56 PM]

michthro
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Speaking of how optimised JtRH is: The first few levels are so optimised it's almost ridiculous. If you look at the high scores, you'll see that for almost every room on levels 1 and 2, at least eight players are tied for the #1 place. However, this soon starts changing, and from about level 9 onwards, there are many rooms that were far from optimised until recently. Two good examples are L8 5S1E and L9 1S. No one gave a hoot about these rooms. Had they been on level 1 or 2 it would have been very different. What I'm getting at is, unless there is some other explanation I'm missing, people started out all afire going for high scores, but soon got sick of it, presumably because of the tedium. These first few levels, btw, are particularly uninteresting to optimise, despite being easy enough to complete (ironic, yes, but true). After level 2 I couldn't take it anymore either, so I started jumping around, playing rooms at random, mostly just improving my scores, here and there trying to optimise where I found rooms that are more interesting to optimise.

I don't know why I didn't point this out before, but very few long rooms have actually been (nearly) optimised. Few players care at all, and those who do, just try and be reasonably efficient, but there's no such thing as optimising, as in finding the fewest possible number of moves, not just streamlining a given approach. Here and there someone gets interested in some long room and does go for it, but it's rare. Btw, I hope (and think) we all know what I mean by "long" rooms. There are "short" rooms that require over a 1000 moves. Typically, nothing much happens until a long snake dies, and then it's about the last few moves.

I've been getting along fine without UU by, like everyone else, seldom trying to optimise a long room and sticking to the shorter ones. (Take a look at the high scores for Bavato's dungeon - few players even bothered to (re)play anywhere near all the rooms, let alone going for good scores, not to mention optimising. Why? It's not worth playing these rooms for high scores - too much like work. A few tips for players looking for some #1 scores. Tip 1: You won't have to break yourself to improve many of the scores for longer rooms in BD (or anywhere outside JtRH). Tip 2: Unfortunately, Rabscuttle won't let you keep them, unless you make it impossible, i.e. optimise, which is not worth doing without UU.)

My point? UU would open up more rooms to the more interesting challenge of optimising, or at least doing well, as opposed to merely solving it.

Tim
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michthro wrote:
My point? UU would open up more rooms to the more interesting challenge of optimising, or at least doing well, as opposed to merely solving it.

Well, I'm sure that's not true. The number of rooms that can be optimised will stay the same.

If you really want more rooms open up for optimising, I guess there are only 2 options:

1) Put all holds that are not finished yet in Holds, and make them available for scoring.
2) All rooms that have been denied scoring are made available for scoring.

Besides, without UU, optimising a room is more challenging.

-- Tim

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michthro
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Tim wrote:
The number of rooms that can be optimised will stay the same.
.
.
Besides, without UU, optimising a room is more challenging.

Both statements are true, of course. Theoretically, any room can be optimised, and doing so without UU is more challenging. What I was trying to say is:
(1) Optimising a long room without UU is like solving a mathematical problem that happens to involve some actual arithmetic calculations (there are such problems) without a calculator (assuming your mental arithmetic is as useless as mine). It's more challenging in an uninteresting way.
(2) Looking at the high scores, a lot of people do like optimising, but, presumably for the above reason, avoid doing so for long rooms.

Tim
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michthro wrote:
Both statements are true, of course. Theoretically, any room can be optimised, and doing so without UU is more challenging. What I was trying to say is:
(1) Optimising a long room without UU is like solving a mathematical problem that happens to involve some actual arithmetic calculations (there are such problems) without a calculator (assuming your mental arithmetic is as useless as mine). It's more challenging in an uninteresting way.

You are using the wrong analogies again. I want to use an automatic solver for any of my mathematical problems. Just like I would like an automatic solver for some of the DROD rooms. (If you were advocating that, I'm all in.)

(2) Looking at the high scores, a lot of people do like optimising, but, presumably for the above reason, avoid doing so for long rooms.

I can think of a much better reason for optimising: There was this room in a recently published hold, where someone during testing solved it in about 1000 moves. I wasn't happy with that, and told him that by solving it in under 250 moves, he would have found lot more interesting tricks. So I let out a warning that someone should have solve it more efficient, but now I look at the high scores, and they are still not under 250. Bleh

So, if I had added a timer of 250 there, I'm sure people will want to optimize...

Look, there's nothing wrong about your very valid reason to ask for UU (you wanting to score higher without doing the things other people have done). And if you want to convince someone else, don't use reasons that has "presumably", "could" or "possibly" in it. And if other people think you are right, they will give their own valid reasons. But please, don't think for other people what they might think; this is not a political forum.

To be honest, I think I have my good reason for UU, but I just hope wholeheartedly that TCB does not contain too many efficiency rooms, so that I won't need to ask for it. (One can always hope... )

-- Tim

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michthro
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Tim wrote:
Look, there's nothing wrong about your very valid reason to ask for UU (you wanting to score higher without doing the things other people have done).

If we all had UU, the playing field would still be level, but I know what you mean about people already having done something the hard way (and that includes myself anyway).

Tim wrote:
And if you want to convince someone else, don't use reasons that has "presumably", "could" or "possibly" in it. And if other people think you are right, they will give their own valid reasons. But please, don't think for other people what they might think; this is not a political forum.

I hate having to use those words myself. The fact is that I'm forced to. It's downright strange the way people don't get involved. If I'm wrong about e.g. why people stopped optimising JtRH so heavily after the first few levels, I wish they would tell me why.

Chaco
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They haven't gotten around to it yet. Optimizers have lives too.

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Banjooie
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I really, really don't want unlimited undo, because all it will end in is people making rooms that are nearly impossible without it.

NiroZ
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Banjooie wrote:
I really, really don't want unlimited undo, because all it will end in is people making rooms that are nearly impossible without it.

i don't really like this uu idea, manly cos it would make many of the levels alot easier, but very quickly the difficulty would rise again, because every one would use it, and it would become standard procedure to use it. it would make the teduious puzzles that requre you to have a very set combo of moves, even more so.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:28 AM]

gamer_extreme_101
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My big pet peeve with unlimited undo is that it takes the "puzzle" element out of the game. If you can undo or restore your game at any point, you will use it as an excuse for not thinking about solving the room beforehand. With a single undo, you have to have an idea of how to solve it beforehand, but you can undo in case you make a small slipup.

The only way that I would every endorse unlimited undo is if it was made an option in the Settings menu, but any rooms completed with unlimited undo on would not be considered solved. IE - green doors will not drop, the room will return to normal on reentry, blue doors will not drop as well, and high scores would not be uploaded. That way, for difficult rooms, you are actually going to have to plan out how you want to attack the room first. Come on - this is what the game is about in the first place.

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[Last edited by gamer_extreme_101 at 02-15-2006 05:11 AM : Whoops. Had half a sentence missing in there. Wouldn't want you to miss your daily recommended intake of ranting.]

agaricus5
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I'd like to throw something into this debate too.

As possibly a perfectionist sort of player, I dislike getting a higher score on a room that I know I can optimise, especially if it's somewhere between 1-50 moves (I tend to leave large rooms for reasons mentioned below). The only problem is is that I know that if someone can optimise a room better than I can, there's also a possibility that I can optimise it further, i.e. the person at #1 is possibly not going to be there for long. Unfortunately for me, if I can't already see what I need to do in a demo or in my original solution, I won't actually know if the room is optimal or not, so I have to have a go myself and attempt to equal or better the #1 score.

And this is the problem - when you attempt to get a #1 score, you're doing just that - attempting to do what someone else who got the last #1 didn't. It may be that he/she missed that going down the passage first before hitting the orb saves 1 move, or perhaps that cutting the tar like this instead of like that saves 3 because fewer tar babies are formed. So, since you need to discover what this missing trick is, you have to work it out yourself, since the demo can't show you what you need to do.

This is where the problem gets nasty, since if you want to do it theoretically, you'll need to calculate decision trees and compute what monster states will be in each area if you make a particular sequence of moves. While this is fine in simple rooms, if you have lots of monsters, and if they are all important to the solution, I simply can't plan more than a few moves accurately in advance since I'm not a computer. Therefore I need to resort to trial and error and choose novel movements that the demo or I didn't use in order to see if the monsters move favourably. Obviously I don't use complete trial and error, and move randomly, since that's silly, but I may have 20 choices of combinations of movements that look like they could work in a particular section and I'd like to try them all to see if they actually do work. Basically, I perform what you might call "educated-guess" trial-and-error. In a short room, this is not too bad, but in longer rooms, this could be a nightmare. Imagine playing a complex sequence of 200 moves 15 times simply to make 15 experiments! Of course, if a room requires 500 moves to reach the variable section, then that's completely out of the question - I don't have the time to do it, so I have to give up, and end up rather dissatisfied. This is why I only have 400 or so highscores, and only about 150 of them are actually anywhere near optimal - I simply don't have the time and energy to play rooms over and over just for highscores, and I don't want lots of unoptimal ones either. So I end up not playing as many rooms as some.

This is then my case for unlimited undo, or at least automatic saves every so often - I want to try out something novel and different in a solution; I want to be #1 in a room, and not simply copy someone else's demo. However, if I need to replay 200 identical moves just to get to the experimental area, then it's just a massive waste of time for me. Unlimited undo would allow me to experiment without retracing my steps until I found a solution or a set of moves that looks promising. It would encourage and allow me to look for alternate solutions and think laterally, without so much of a time penalty.

Let me take a simple example, just to show you the sorts of things I do when I go for a highscore, and how in this case it actually worked (for now). [I also risk Rabscuttle stealing all my #1s in the hold if I do this, but I guess it's a risk I'm willing to take for the sake of this argument]:

If you go to Perfection, Perfect 4, 1S 1W, and have completed it, you'll see that I have just obtained a #1 score of 473 moves. Here's a basic analysis of how I did it:

Up to about move 330, the solution is pretty much inflexible due to the nature of the room. Anyone going for a highscore will have done the room in almost the exact same way up to here, and so, I don't think anyone can reach column 1 before this move. So I can be pretty sure that I'm fully optimised up to here if I've moved like the people in the winning demos. Now, however, I have a choice - there are a set of series of movements that can be made in this last area, all of which give similar results, but one or two are more efficient than others.

Warning! Really nasty spoilers in this tag. Intended only for people who have actually finished the room.



And now for my point: I analysed my movements and choices here in detail, but this required a significant amount of time to do, probably slightly more than I actually needed when attempting to get the highscore for the first time using trial and error. In fact, when I was faced with these choices, I tried both combinations for each in order to work out which was the better one, and didn't spot the second choice for decision 2 until I did it by accident when I pressed "2" too many times.

In far more complex rooms, analysing choices like this will take far too long, and may still require experimentation to find the movement order of monsters anyway. So I am forced to use analysis to find possible solutions and use experimentation to find the best one in a sort of iterative process.

Let's say that, for example, if I had to play all 330 moves from the beginning each time to do this, and let's say that the 50 or so moves to analyse, like I did above, were exceedingly complex with many different monsters and elements to watch all at once, such as in Bavato's Dungeon L13 1S 1E, neither the option of "educated-guess" trial-and error, nor the option of analysis would be open to me to find an optimal solution simply because of time constraints. So, I'm disadvantaged from getting a highscore since I don't want to copy someone else's demo directly and I don't have as much time as other people to find an optimal solution, which I find unfair. Unlimited undo in this case would put me on a more level playing field with other people who have more time, since my ingenuity and ability to experiment will be tested more, rather than how much time I have on my hands to repeat a few hundred identical moves repeatedly.

I did see the argument about persistence, but really, if a person is willing to try out 500 different sequences at random in the hope of finding one that works, then he'd be more-or-less wasting his time, since someone with a bit of cunning may be able to reduce those 500 possibilities to 30, for example, and so get the optimal score faster. And, of course, if you do have a lot of time but you use your cunning to find an optimal solution, then you deserve getting the #1 score, since you made the effort to do so. The time problem will always be there, of course, but unlimited undo will give others who don't have lots of time a better chance.

Of course, there is also the problem of people using unlimited undo to make completing a room more easy. So, as a compromise, unlimited undo could be like the F6 demo feature - you can only use it if you've previously completed the room as a feature to help you go for a highscore (DROD can occasionally get confused about completed rooms, so I guess that would need be fixed first). After all, why else (apart from seeing the room again) would you replay it?

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 02-18-2006 10:14 AM]

forrestfire
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At first I was opposed to unlimited undo, but agaricus5 changed my mind. If it can only be used on a completed room like agaricus5 suggested, then Banjooie's concern about people making rooms too difficult would be solved. This would keep the current difficulty level and (hopefully) keep people from making trial and error puzzles.

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Banjooie
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If it was only on rooms you've already conquered...

I've got no way to complain about that.

eytanz
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You know, I think that's a comprimise that I could get behind as well.

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Schik
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Even I wouldn't object to that.

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Oneiromancer
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Yeah, I'll jump on the "hey, that's actually not a bad compromise" bandwagon too.

Note that just because 3 dev team members like it, doesn't mean anything at all unless Mike does. He's the boss, and when he makes his mind up on something, that's the way it's gonna be!

Game on,

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 02-18-2006 05:51 AM]

michthro
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I have no objections either... Thank you, agaricus5. This is what I've been waiting for with bated breath ever since I posted:

michthro wrote:
I am hoping that more people with some influence and better than me at expressing themselves and explaining things and so on (and of course who agree with me) will get involved.

skell
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NiroZ wrote:
i don't really like this uu idea, manly cos it would make many of the levels alot easier, but very quickly the difficulty would rise again, because every one would use it, and it would become standard procedure to use it. it would make the teduious puzzles that requre you to have a very set combo of moves, even more so.

I can't agree with you, mainly because there is already UU in the editor and this won't change much .

But beside of that, I fully agree with this idea until we have it after conquering room because if not, the game will be really much easier (Maybe not like God Mode as I mentioned in my deleted post , but rather like Save Anytime You Want, as it is featured in almost all Console Emulators). Well, anyway I don't want to begin new discussion about it.

And also:

I'll jump on the "hey, that's actually not a bad compromise" bandwagon

.

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Doom
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Interesting. I think this would affect my playing style dramatically.

If I could have unlimited undo for completed rooms, I believe I would start completing rooms as fast as possible and then return to them later for score improving. This doesn't actually sound like a bad thing. It would make regular room solving more enjoyable (for a person who cares about scores), because you wouldn't have to spend huge amount of time with easy rooms. Score improving would also be a lot less tedious, as metioned before.

A good example is "TAPAKAHbI yCaTbIe". I've spent ridiculous amount of time getting to the last level, occasionally replaying rooms dozens of times trying to at least match the leading score in every room (trying to avoid downloading any demos as well). I did well until the last few levels, when I just got exhausted at it and began to accept worse scores. So much work for just a few points...

There are so many rooms in DROD that being able to progress through them a few times faster shouldn't be that bad. There will still be playing for months, not counting new holds appearing every once in a while.

Ezlo
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This bandwagon seems to be a good one to jump behind. Or jump in front of for that matter. I'll bet they'd stop before running me over.

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Mattcrampy
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I'm pretty sure undoing counts as a move.

In any case, undoing with UU probably should continue to count as moves. It would then be ideal for an exploratory search, but cracking the room and your final optimised run both have to be done without it.

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NiroZ
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looks like mattcrampy disagrees... i do belive the bandwangon has got stuck in the mud.

agaricus5, the thing is, you could go through, and mark/memorise the position when ever there is more than 1 option to move. then count how many moves it takes to the next choak hold(like getting to the node which opens x door). it may be more complex, but if you have it so that you can continusly backtrack moves, the time it will take to reach the minimum number of turns will be alot quicker, and thus makes the game less long lasting.

althougth, to be totally honest, i have never been that hyped over hiscores. so uu would be of no interest to me at all.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-30-2007 01:13 AM]

Chaco
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If it were stuck in Awakened Mud, I'd be a little bit more worried. I haven't really contributed my opinion to this yet, but I also think it would be a good compromise. Not that I'd probably end up using it, but I can see how it *would* be useful.

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eytanz
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I'm pretty sure undoing counts as a move.

Nope.

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agaricus5
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NiroZ wrote:
looks like mattcrampy disagrees... i do belive the bandwangon has got stuck in the mud.

Not quite. He appears to have said that you shouldn't be allowed to use UU as a tool to create a winning demo, although as an exploratory device it could be useful. The only thing I'd say to that is that it's like using checkpoints in the solution you submit to Caravel.net. I used a checkpoint in the room I mentioned above to avoid replaying 300 moves, several times over; unlimited undo works on the same principle - should I be penalised because I don't want to play a move sequence over and over?

agaricus5, the thing is, you could go through, and mark/memorise the position when ever there is more than 1 option to move. then count how many moves it takes to the next choak hold(like getting to the node which opens x door).

Okay, so if you to go to Bavato's Dungeon L13 Entrance (use the warp room), could you perform this counting analysis on this room, which is pretty complicated, with perhaps over 20-30 decision "nodes" or points (i.e. path branches, where you need to choose a route), and perhaps around 2-3 choices per node? Note that if you have 30 nodes, with 3 choices each, and let's say you must visit 20 of these nodes, that comes to a massive number of combinations to work out, since you could potentially visit most nodes in any order in this room.

i.e. 30 Choose 20 * 3^20 (that's about 1.04*10^17 combinations)!

[Okay, maybe reduce that by a few factors of 10 to account for the fact that the furthest nodes can't be reached before other ones]

Also, remember what you need to do here:



I highly doubt anyone can use simple brute-force analysis to work out all the possible room states. Even a supercomputer would probably take a long while to do it. You probably could only compute up to 2-3 nodes in advance, realistically, so with the number of combinations out there, how could you find the optimal solution?

I guess you'd therefore need to use "educated-guess" trial-and error in order to help you reduce the number of choices to something more manageable that you can make a decision about, unless, of course, you actually do have a supercomputer.

Thus, we have a problem. Suppose you reached "node" 17 (correctly), after 200 moves and have maybe a few hundred viable options left. You can only predict all the states as far as "node" 18/19 on paper without giving up, and you've still got perhaps another 2 or 3 nodes after that. You're close, but you're not there yet. So, we've got a problem. You have to choose one path that takes you from nodes 17-19 out of maybe 20-50, and you still have to work out if there is an optimal solution from there. So, you choose the best combination, and move Beethro. Now, you're faced with another 20 choices. What do you do? You'd probably compute the possible states after each of them, and choose the best one. Is it optimal, however? What about all the other combinations of choices from node 17-19 that you didn't choose? Do you go back and test them? How long would it take you to compute a few hundred possible outcomes on paper? In fact, as DROD calculates the outcomes of your moves for you (the program moves the monsters), wouldn't it be faster for you to try out 20 three move sequences in order, compared to drawing or working them out on paper? I'd personally want to cut out that sort of work if I don't need to do it. Why would I try to predict 20-40 monster movement patterns and positions on paper if DROD can do that without trouble and accurately (by definition) for me?

And there still is the problem of repeated moves. You've chosen a second combination of choices from node 17-19, but you now need to replay the whole 200 move sequence up to there in order to test it. Overall, how long would it take you if you did all that analysis, repeated move sequences, and counting for every one of the few hundred combinations? Several hours? Maybe a whole day? I would think I could test most of them in a far shorter time simply by playing and using undo where an attempt failed, compared to writing everything down.

it may be more complex, but if you have it so that you can continusly backtrack moves, the time it will take to reach the minimum number of turns will be alot quicker, and thus makes the game less long lasting.

I learnt a lot from discovering new techniques that I never really knew existed through competition for highscores, not through repeating the same moves twenty times. The greatness of DROD is not about how long we can get the game to "last", but how clever and ingenuous its puzzles and strategies are. And anyway, the shortening of "DROD's lifetime" is probably something that wouldn't apply to most normal players; even if you were to play DROD constantly, all day, you'd still need something like 3-6 months to play every single hold, level and room. And, you'd still have the challenge of optimisation to face too, for each of those rooms! Of course, there's also the editor, so anyone who has finished absolutely everything can reverse that and make more levels for us to play.

So, I highly doubt anyone will run out of things to do soon.

althougth, to be totally honest, i have never been that hyped over hiscores. so uu would be of no interest to me at all.

You don't appear to have a subscription, so highscores wouldn't technically be of use to you at present anyway. So, it's a bit unfair of you to argue against improving highscore making ability since you probably don't optimise your solutions after you play them (or if you do, you won't know how well you did relative to others, so you couldn't tell anyway).

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 02-18-2006 03:20 PM]

Stefan
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I'm quite surprised nobody caught this idea when it was first suggested.

skell wrote:
Besides, to don't be too off-topic, I have one small thought walking on my head... I think I can accept UU, but if it can only be usable in finished rooms... so It won't tempt me .

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agaricus5
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Stefan wrote:
I'm quite surprised nobody caught this idea when it was first suggested.

skell wrote:
Besides, to don't be too off-topic, I have one small thought walking on my head... I think I can accept UU, but if it can only be usable in finished rooms... so It won't tempt me .

Hah! So that was why I was wondering why no-one appeared to have already suggested it before I did. It isn't written in the clearest English, though (no offence intended, skell), so this might be the reason why.


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michthro
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Stefan wrote:
I'm quite surprised nobody caught this idea when it was first suggested.

Ahhhh...That's who it was. I thought somebody suggested it before, but I couldn't remember who or where. I'm not surprised though. At the time the opposition to uu was as much about high scores as anything else, so skell's idea didn't make much difference. Then agaricus5 managed to get it through that uu is a good thing for optimising purposes, and the idea was seen in a new light.

KevG
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There's really not a whole lot of point in adding simply a "me too" here. It's pretty much a case of waiting for Mike's response.

So, what I will do is pose a question: What should ctrl-backspace do? I see two options. One, multi-move undo; hitting backspace with ctrl held would undo 5 (or 30) moves.

Two, redo; this would allow you to back up to check a prior position and then restore to where you were. It would also eliminate the problem of backing up too much. Obviously redo wouldn't work once you had hit a key other than backspace.

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[Last edited by KevG at 02-18-2006 05:58 PM]