NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

just so you know, im well aware of the fact that this has been brought up before, however, i feel that i have enough things to add so that this is not just a rehash.

basically there would be two modes, a verses and a coop.

verses: have a set of premade maps, perhaps even including monsters (perhaps even allied monsters) to make a few more options to kill you oppenent with other than your sword.
also to spice up the gameplay, some maps would have extra weapons (bear with me) like a longer sword(covers 2 squares, and could only stick one square into a wall), but to balence it off, would have 8 extra points in its rotation, making it unweildly, and set against that would probably be the double swords.
and just to add to the mix, have trapdoors and destructable wals, that respawn after a set number of moves.
In order to make sure that the other person doesn't lags behind, there would be a clock that would (prob. 20sec)count down. once it hits 0, the other wins.
and to make sure that the person who starts does not have and advantage, the matches would come in pairs, each person having a turn at going first.
it would also be interesting to imagine matches with 3,4 or even 8 people in them, and then you could include team deathmatch or even capture the flag, althought i have no idea how to pull them off.

coop- first of all, it probably should be designed for host seat/lan play, and the only way to play online would be by direct connection (lets face it, you would only play with people you know, right?
in order prevent accidental deaths makeing the game fustrating, the 2 people would have the choice to undo the stuffed up move, or revert to the last check point that one of them landed on.
in order to make the levels more interesting, you should include some inbuilt par-time's(how many moves you should complete this in)
the maps for coop should indefinatly include things similar to the bethro and Halph puzzles.
in order that people don't sit there for hours at a time, waiting for the other person to hit 5, a little box in the corner would tell the computer to skip you turn, until told otherwise.
perhaps a time limit on how long a player takes in co-op as well.
something will have to be done, thougth, in order to stop the co-op becoming rather mundane and repedative.(think about it.)

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:28 AM]

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1226
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged

I imagine Multiplayer drod as less of a optional feature, but more of something integrated into the game. To me, personally, if I was designing it. It would be available to all who owned CaravelNet proper. When you boot up the game, another hold in the Change Location tab would entitled, lets just call it "Town" for right now. When you get to "Town" it will be a bunch of open screens, with maybe a bit of decoration. You will see a bunch of people standing around. All of these will represent other people who are exploring "Town" as well. In reality though, they are not standing around, an there screen YOUR the one standing around, and they are moving. So anyway, tap your sword against them, and you get there stats, Username, Position on the Highscores list, Hardest Hold completed, etc. You then can challenge them to a duel, in one of many arenas, or invite them to help in a hold. You can choose any hold you want to play in, but any highscores you make will be under a different category, and if you conquer a hold harder than any you have done before, it won't count as you're hardest hold. Basiclly, it's for the fun factor. People can also make specific "Dual Holds." Holds which need to people to play. These would count as Hardest Hold completed, but would still be under a different high score category. If anyone is interestesd, I also have ideas for chat interfaces, and point shops.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

well by all means, type about it to your hearts content.
(I have never understood why this got modded down)

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:29 AM]

Mikko
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 276
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

The original version of DROD had an option to use a timing clock. Every time you made a move, the clock reset and strated counting downwards. If it reached 0, Beethro was automatically given a 'wait' command and the clock was reset. IIRC you could set the clock to up to 10 seconds, but I only found it fun with the short 1 second timer.

If multiplayer DROD was ever made, then re-introducing the timing clock would IMO be the best way to keep the game turn based without letting one player slow down things too much for others.

Making DROD multiplayer would change the gameplay very much, though, so I don't think it will ever happen.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

First of all, assuming a Smite to the Death style deathmatch, which Beethro moves first? This would affect the outcome greatly.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1226
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged

I would say turn into a game like diplomacy, it waits for both players to make a move, and then executes both at the same time.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3648
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

What if in a situation like this:

.1...
..X..
.2...

player 1 tries to step SW and player 2 tries to step NW?

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1377
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Mikko wrote:
Making DROD multiplayer would change the gameplay very much, though, so I don't think it will ever happen.

Oh?

A few months ago, ErikH2000 wrote:
Don't be surprised to see a lot more CaravelNet and multiplayer features in the next few years.

---

[Last edited by TripleM at 02-16-2006 01:17 AM]

Swivel
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 236
Registered: 09-14-2005
IP: Logged

What if multiplayer DROD got as many players as Runescape? It really tickles my brain to think about it, but I wish luck to Schik then. And it would be really funny if everyone got into a fight every time they met. I wonder if poeple could chat. By having each person move individually, you're essentially getting real time DROD. I'll stop thinking of this now.

Ezlo
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1226
Registered: 01-08-2006
IP: Logged

Chaco wrote:
What if in a situation like this:

.1...
..X..
.2...

player 1 tries to step SW and player 2 tries to step NW?

Nothing, just like in diplomacy, if both people try to move to the same spot, nothing happens.

____________________________
Call me Citrus.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Indeed, Erik's very keen to get some multiplayer DROD going. It's hard, however, so the more suggestions people can come up with the better.

Ideally, we'd want to come to some sort of consensus about what should happen when one player makes ten moves and the other makes only one, and how that affects the monsters.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Chaco wrote:
First of all, assuming a Smite to the Death style deathmatch, which Beethro moves first? This would affect the outcome greatly.

if you read the whole monolithic post of mine, you will find you answer.

another issue that we have not dealt with is if two people get stuck in a postition where anywere you move, you die, anywere the opponent moves, he dies, thus you just sit there pressing 5, and this would be made even worse if both moved at the same time (and with that, it is just too possible for someone to accidentaly walk into someones sword.).

abolishing 5 might work, but im not too sure.

IRT mattcrampy
how would someone move 10 times while the other moves only once?

just imagine a game board, with 3 people sitting around it, Player 1 goes First, Player 2 goes second, Monsters(player 3) goes third. the movement of the monsters would just be locking on to the person who is close-ests(i kwno i carnt speel).
that would also add stratigic elements to the monsters.

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:29 AM]

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 962
Registered: 05-16-2005
IP: Logged

You could ask peopel if they want to try a hold... you could see as they play it.

____________________________
I make Let's Plays too!
Click here to find out my LPs' progress, and find out what I plan to tackle next!

Currently playing:


My Holds:
-Completed:

-Work in Progress:

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

NiroZ wrote:

IRT mattcrampy
how would someone move 10 times while the other moves only once?

Player 1 locks in ten moves, player 2 goes and gets a sandwich?

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1377
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

In my opinion, one of the main problems with multiplayer DROD is the timing. You obviously can't allow both players to make moves as much as they want because any lag would just ruin everything. On the other hand, if you have some sort of 10-second time limit per move, it could still end up being: A makes a move, waits a few seconds for B to make a move, who waits a few seconds for A.. can you really see yourself playing DROD and waiting several seconds between single moves? I'm hoping theres some brilliant way around that.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

TripleM wrote:
In my opinion, one of the main problems with multiplayer DROD is the timing. You obviously can't allow both players to make moves as much as they want because any lag would just ruin everything. On the other hand, if you have some sort of 10-second time limit per move, it could still end up being: A makes a move, waits a few seconds for B to make a move, who waits a few seconds for A.. can you really see yourself playing DROD and waiting several seconds between single moves? I'm hoping theres some brilliant way around that.

I don't know if somebody ever played any rogue-like on-line game. like Tome On-line... But the roguelike games are characterised by the same rules appearing in DROD (Player moves everything around moves also), but there is also speed factor, so the more speed you have, the more moves you can do before other monsters (For example, when your speed is low, the Bat can do 4 moves for your one move, but when you are very fast, you can even manage to be as fast as bat. But because in DROD everything moves with the same speed, it is much easier to do, because, as TripleM(And not only him) mentioned, this can be done with the timing counting down. He also mentioned it would be boring to wait, but well... I see it in very other colours:
-First, I think there should be made special Cooperate holds, where both players help each other. So let's assume this is truth, because it would make much easier for me to explain.
-So there are two players(or maybe even more). At begin there is no timer. You can freely speak with each other. But when any player does a move, other are informed of his move, and the timer starts to count. But if player has problems or anything which makes him think "slower", he presses button, which sends "stop timer" demand to other players, and the timer really stops, but if they are "" to "Stop timer right now", they can push button to send "continue timer" demand, but all players must do it (if there is more than two). Well, with this comes many problems and dilemmas, so I'll try to explain the ones which came to my mind:
-The very first thing that bothered me, how the hell do leaving rooms, so everybody is happy. I think, there should be the one guy called Master, and he will be the only one able to leave rooms. But there can be another ide, which I like more, that everybody can left room anytime he want. When room is not finished, and there is nobody in the room it resets. Simply...
-When somebody moves first, he does a move, and he is stopped till nex turn. All other players see him moved. And they can't accidently walk onto him.
-When there s a need of Undo'ing, only the Master player could do this (Because it would make problems with "UNDO UNDO UNDO, I LOVE IT YEAAAAH!" people)

Uh, no more ideas about what to say more, but I can only ad one little thing:

Ideally, we'd want to come to some sort of consensus about what should happen when one player makes ten moves and the other makes only one, and how that affects the monsters.

I'm afraid that making this in a way "Eveybody moves when he wants" is simply impossible to do, and it will be impossible to play(That's how I see it). Well, I'm kinda tired adfter it, I'm sure there are a lot of things I would like to say, but at this moment I have NO idea what to do(or say) and I'm too lazy to do it now (well, speaking in other language might be tiring). Well probably there is another ways to do this, but I see it the best(and only?) ...

____________________________
My website

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

File: Multiplayer Drod.hold (1.7 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

Mattcrampy wrote:

NiroZ wrote:

IRT mattcrampy
how would someone move 10 times while the other moves only once?

Player 1 locks in ten moves, player 2 goes and gets a sandwich?

ummm, are we both on the same page? i would think that if you when and got a samdwich, while in the middle of a game, the timer would end, thus giving the game to your oppenent, if you where following my suggestions that is.

IRT triple m
i think drod mp would be more like chess than ut2004.

anyway, back to trying to fix problems before they crop up, i have thougth of a solution to stalemates.
have a penalty that if you sit in the same square for 5 turns, you forfet the match.
and in order to make it so that you can't have some person sitting in a corner, and force the other to come to him, make it so that the computer forces the players togeather eventually, it would have to be pretty smart thougth, and would probably be an extra option as it could be too explotable.

and now for somthing not totally related to drod mp, but how about a speed potion(doubles the number of moves per turn).

anyway. i have also uploaded a quick hold with 4 maps to get you thinking about different dynamics to put in the maps and have a slight idea of what i was thinking about. note that i don't know how to direct the force arrows yet, and that strange symbol you will see is just my personal symbol, so think nothing of it.

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 01:28 PM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

So, what if one player rushes off to kill some monsters and the other player is actually closer to the monsters but doesn't react in time? Are we going to demand that the first, enthusiastic player wait for the second player to decode what to do?

This isn't an intractable problem. There are some solutions I'm aware of, but in the interests of not inadvertantly spoiling anything I probably shouldn't tell you about them. But the Smite to the Death competition seems like a useful model to start from, since it was in many ways multiplayer DROD.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

TripleM
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1377
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
So, what if one player rushes off to kill some monsters and the other player is actually closer to the monsters but doesn't react in time? Are we going to demand that the first, enthusiastic player wait for the second player to decode what to do?

I'm not quite sure I understand you here - NiroZ's whole idea from the start would be that if a player doesn't move in 10 seconds, he loses. The end. So he will have to wait up to 10 seconds, yes (which as I mentioned above, is the part I don't really like).
Of course, I've probably completely misunderstood what you're asking.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Why ten seconds, basically? Forcing a move is not an elegant solution, and DROD's far too complex a game for ten seconds to be long enough.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
Why ten seconds, basically? Forcing a move is not an elegant solution, and DROD's far too complex a game for ten seconds to be long enough.

i actually suggested 20 sec's, it doesn't look like many people looked at/understood my topic post.

anyway, its just that you don't want to to sit there for half an hour as someone goes and gets a sandwich, and if you allowed people to use more turns, it become too complicated.
so if you add a timer, it can speed up the game immensly. of course such a suggestion would be optional in the acutually game.

and drod is not nearly complex enought not to warrent a timer. anyone who tells me that chess or civ 4 are not complex must be blooming genius's (think about it)

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 01:28 PM]

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

NiroZ wrote:

Mattcrampy wrote:
Why ten seconds, basically? Forcing a move is not an elegant solution, and DROD's far too complex a game for ten seconds to be long enough.

and drod is not nearly complex enought not to warrent a timer. anyone who tells me that chess or civ 4 are not complex must be blooming genius's (think about it)

DROD is actually pretty complicated already in terms of game mechanics - have you completed some of the harder holds available, and all under timed conditions?.

Actually, if you pit yourself against another player, DROD probably could become as complex as Chess, or even more so for it has a larger board and more objects. As I mentioned here, what makes chess complicated is not just the number of possible configurations of the board, but also the fact that you are actively psycho-analysing your opponent in terms of what you think he will do next, what he might miss in terms of strategy, amd how you can manipulate him to move pieces in the ways you want. The complexity of chess comes from both the board and your opponent's mind - if your opponent did the same things repeatedly, beating him will eventually be easy, just as once you complete a DROD room and know how it's done, completing it again is much easier.

In a similar way, multiplayer DROD becomes as complex as your opponent's mind, for you need to base your strategy based on what you think your opponent wants to do, as well as what you can use to kill your opponent. You can go here to see what our first attempt at multiplayer DROD actually looked like, and how it was indeed more a test of how well you could read someone's mind (and how lucky you were).

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3764
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

Well I've wrote a bit about what I think about it, but probably I wrote too much, and nobody wants to read it ;P. Just kidding, of course, but I think in Cooperation mode, when somebody moves, timer starts to tick, but if somebody needs some more time to think, hes simply presses the button which makes the other players wait (Obviously timer is also stopped). But if we will talk about players against themselves, I think the best way, is to do a timer, which counts down, and if nobody does a move in this time, it considers it as waiting a turn. Or the same as in Co-op(whatever) but without stopping timer.

Well, I have no idea what to say. In the middle of post I had to go out with dog, and I've forgot what I wanted to say...

____________________________
My website

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Actually, I think that if we forced it down to 10-15 seconds, that'd make it more exciting, and whatnot.
And multiplayer games are best left being exciting.

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5124
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Just to keep everyone up to date, I'm currently thinking that I wouldn't seriously consider developing a multiplayer variant unless there's very little pain/annoyance in coordinating moves with other players. Waiting ten, fifteen, or even five seconds per move while everyone inputs their move seems like it would get old really fast. It might work for simultaneous Scorched Earth, but that's a game where rounds usually last about ten turns. If a single DROD room were to last up to ten times this amount, I don't think I would ever last a single room. Well, maybe once. Nevertheless, this might be acceptable to hardcore fans. That's cool, but to make this something that's playable by at least most of the current players, I think some innovation is required to make multiplayer DROD a lastingly fun experience. I think this means retaining at least most of the tempo of the game as people play single-player DROD now, with a blend of thinking and action.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 02-18-2006 06:34 PM]

Krishh
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 282
Registered: 06-05-2004
IP: Logged

I would like to take this opportunity to plug my post in this thread, which is in turn a plug for my post in this other thread, in which I propose the idea of a DROD turn-based tactics game with puzzle elements coming in the form of the arena being a full-fledged DROD room complete with monsters as a 'third team' hostile to both sides to alleviate the possible erratic pacing of a multiplayer DROD with just 2 delvers taking turns.

P.S. By the way, the flow (my game mentioned there), umm, might get resureccted someday, as I am learning an actual programming language now, and might make this game when I feel I will be able to.

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1980
Registered: 10-23-2003
IP: Logged

Here's a couple ideas for co-op or deathmatch DROD.

First of all, to alleviate the difficulty of coordinating movements, perhaps the two smitemasters could experience forced invisibility. Then, if you outlaw brains, they could operate independently of one another, up until they enter similar fields of vision. Not sure how you could deal with that, but if the monsters still move after either player moves in that case, then both players would tend to avoid eachother, because what will happen to them at that point becomes unpredictable.

This can lead to some interesting deathmatches, where players do what they can to release monsters and leave them outside of their field of vision into a place where the other player wouldn't like it.

I imagine there would be one community spawn counter, which increments with every move, regardless of player. Maybe the spawns could now occur on multiples of 60 instead.

Another option for co-op play could be to simply split the room in two with a wall or some sort of barrier, forcing the two smitemasters so act independently of each other but still planning out what needs to be done and when. For example, one player needs to kill his tar mother in time to prevent uncuttable tar from growing on the other half of the room, but before that can happen, both players need to drop all of their trapdoors. Monsters will only react to the smitemaster on the their side of the barrier.


What do you think? Are those fresh ideas, or have they been mentioned before? Of course, much tweaking is neccessary, but at the moment I don't see any fatal flaws.

____________________________
http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/

Maurog
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1501
Registered: 09-16-2004
IP: Logged

It's really hard to make a turn-based game work in real time. The closest I can think of is playing in constant "matrix time" effect where it takes monsters several seconds to creep from one tile to another. Once they complete moving, the turn is over and next turn starts. The players will have several seconds to announce their move and act before the monsters.

Of course once you use these rules it's not about thinking and deep strategy and all about immediate tactical decisions. It will be an experience very different from DROD, but not necessarily bad.

____________________________
Slay the living! Raise the dead!
Paint the sky in crimson red!

NiroZ
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1302
Registered: 02-12-2006
IP: Logged

RoboBob3000 wrote:
Here's a couple ideas for co-op or deathmatch DROD.

First of all, to alleviate the difficulty of coordinating movements, perhaps the two smitemasters could experience forced invisibility. Then, if you outlaw brains, they could operate independently of one another, up until they enter similar fields of vision. Not sure how you could deal with that, but if the monsters still move after either player moves in that case, then both players would tend to avoid eachother, because what will happen to them at that point becomes unpredictable.

This can lead to some interesting deathmatches, where players do what they can to release monsters and leave them outside of their field of vision into a place where the other player wouldn't like it.

I imagine there would be one community spawn counter, which increments with every move, regardless of player. Maybe the spawns could now occur on multiples of 60 instead.

Another option for co-op play could be to simply split the room in two with a wall or some sort of barrier, forcing the two smitemasters so act independently of each other but still planning out what needs to be done and when. For example, one player needs to kill his tar mother in time to prevent uncuttable tar from growing on the other half of the room, but before that can happen, both players need to drop all of their trapdoors. Monsters will only react to the smitemaster on the their side of the barrier.


What do you think? Are those fresh ideas, or have they been mentioned before? Of course, much tweaking is neccessary, but at the moment I don't see any fatal flaws.

having the room split, and having some sort of obsticle course to reach the opponent isn't too bad an idea, but it should be that it only takes one person to open the middle section, so that its more of a turn-based race than a 'defeat the monster, then the oppoent" so that the bad sports can't just idle in their half, and because defeating the monster could get very dull.

with the timer, it would indefinatly have to be user optional, and then they can choose their own time, or time method. however, in fairly sure that the majority of the games will have a time limit which is 20ish.

---

[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-30-2007 01:15 AM]