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zwetschenwasser
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File: Side Road.hold (204.8 KB)
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icon A Side Road (0)  
Here's the first part of a hold I'm working on called Side Road, where Beethro is trying to get his money back from an evil accountant. Thanks in advance for your feedback! :D

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 12-17-2008 12:48 AM]
10-26-2008 at 08:55 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
Yu know what would be nice? Checkpoints!

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10-27-2008 at 01:55 AM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
oops! Sorry! I'll update it in a little bit. :)

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10-27-2008 at 08:39 PM
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Devante
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
what version is this for?
10-27-2008 at 08:43 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
3.2 :)

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10-27-2008 at 08:44 PM
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Devante
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
drod rpg, tcb, jtrh?
10-27-2008 at 08:45 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
um... 3.2 is TCB :|

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10-27-2008 at 08:51 PM
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Devante
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
not bad so far.

but what is this purple thing with beams stopping me from moving o_O

and this bubbly stuff that hides my sword.
10-27-2008 at 08:58 PM
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Kwerulous
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
A "purple thing with beams" is called an aumtlich. Basically:
*if you get caught in its gaze, you can't move (except swing you sword)
*you can block the gaze with you sword
*with the right sword orientation you can 'freeze' them
After a while you'll get used to handling them.

And "bubbly stuff that hides [your] sword" are oremites. Beethro has to put away his sword because oremites eat metal.

For more detailed descriptions of the new monsters in TCB, have a look here.
10-27-2008 at 09:34 PM
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larrymurk
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
Well, some of these rooms are a bit crazy, but I rather like them :)

As has been mentioned, pls add checkpoints. I think it's a good idea to have at least 1 check point in every room.

Also, I'm stuck on the Underground level since there are required rooms behind the blue wall. Please fix this.
10-27-2008 at 10:20 PM
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Jacob
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
Sorry my comments were terse up above, but a lot of your hold really needs checkpoints.

Have you played this through from start to finish? A few things make me think you haven't.

I'm part way through the second level now. Some good bits in it, but too much basic hack-and-slash for my liking. More detailed comments:

Detour
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Underground
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10-27-2008 at 10:30 PM
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lopsidation
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
I agree with most everything Jacob says, just a few more comments:
General: A fairly nice hold. Some rooms felt too trial-and-error, especially Detour: 1N 1E. In some rooms it looks like you wanted me to kill the slayers - maybe make them required with a scripted slayer gate?
Entrance:
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1N:
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2N 1E:
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3N 1E:
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The one with the adder and the mud and gel and tar and a bunch of rock giants:
Click here to view the secret text


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10-28-2008 at 12:59 AM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
For some reason my browser displays a blank page whenever I click "Delete Attachment", so I'm going to have to put my checkpointed version. The battle is supposed to be part of a continuous war, so I ended the speech on room exit (and did the same for other similar rooms). The stalwarts are supposed to kill the slayers and have four stalwarts left over, so I'm not sure what happened. Training Area should be accessible now, and I'm going to add a new room that forces the player to go through the west post-blue door room before simply leaving the level. I added checkpoints, replaced the seven billion mothers with assorted monsters, lowered the trapdoor count on one of the rooms, and added a few monsters in the transition rooms of Underground.

Specific comments:
1N: Yes, I like killing citizens! :) (Might change later, but not sure)
1E: I did it both ways, and I like both ways.
1N2E: Halph is just there to talk to you and make sure you don't let the adder/slayers kill him. I added some force arrows to also make sure that the fegundo doesn't hit the orb and that you don't bump into the door. And his name is not Halph! (Weren't you listening? :))

Oh, and I might change 2N1E in Underground by forcing you to kill stuff with fegundos. I'm not sure yet. Hope you like Training Area as well, while I add some stuff to the empty rooms and make the hold bigger. Thanks for the first batch of feedback!

:D

New version below! :D

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 11-03-2008 01:54 AM]
10-28-2008 at 10:05 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
New version! Finished Training Area and added a new level. Thanks in advance for feedback! :D

New version below!

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 11-19-2008 01:06 AM]
11-03-2008 at 01:53 AM
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lopsidation
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
Many times in this hold there seems to be a whole bunch of slayers in a room for no apparent reason, possibly to add difficulty. I suggest removing most of these; 30 slayers don't provide much more of a challenge than one slayer, and in Detour: 1 East it just gets annoying. If you need something to increase the challenge, you could try adding roach queens around the edge of a room that you can only kill at the end, a slowly advancing briar root, or pretty much anything else.

If the slayers are to add to the 'ongoing battle' feeling, that's fine, perhaps put some fighting stalwarts in separate areas of each room.

Oh, and in the Detour's big battle between stalwarts and slayers, the stalwarts still all die the first time through. I'm not sure why this would work for you and not for me- the monsters would move the same way regardless of my position because they're targeting the stalwarts, correct?

To end on a more positive note, I like the plot and the Life Creation Facility demonstration is nice.

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11-04-2008 at 12:03 AM
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talund
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
I've made it through Detour and most of Underground. However, 1N, 2E (Underground) appears to be a broken room. That is because when I enter it from the West, I am on a green door and can't get off it. Is there something I'm missing?

Similarly, in Training Area, 2N, there appears to be no way to move beyond to the next room. I have conquered the room without triggering the bombs and with triggering the bombs. Neither seems to do anything to opening the yellow door.

Does not appear to be a way to progress through Life Creation Facility 2S, 1E as arrows block the exit.

Life Creation Facility 4S - the south east block of tar does not appear to be clearable.

[Last edited by talund at 11-07-2008 07:28 PM]
11-07-2008 at 01:37 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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I have finished Life Creation Facility and a new level, Building Platform. For talund: I fixed the broken Underground room.
In Training Area 2N, Beethro comments that "there's something strange about this room"! Try stepping on the tile that's a different color. ;) I fixed the LCF arrow problem, and the tar is now clearable. Please post feedback on all levels, since there wasn't much feedback of TA or LCF. Thanks in advance! :D

Edit: Ah, yes, the big battle room. You were right, I was wrong. I have tweaked the room, so now the stalwarts should destroy all the monsters. (Important for the plot). Thanks, lopsidation! :thumbsup

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 11-19-2008 01:08 AM]
11-19-2008 at 01:06 AM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
Comments? Apple pie? Without a cherry on top? :)

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11-21-2008 at 11:46 PM
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mxvladi
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Quite easy hold, but we have quite few easy but not "walk through the rooms without thinking or fighting much" hold... so, this is pretty good hold. Also has crazy story... :D Anyway. Comments go here:

Detour:

entrance: Heh-heh. Quite easy, but those waterskippers make sense i.e. I needed to be quite careful with adder timing.

1N: Easy. Enter the room with
Click here to view the secret text
face direction, conquer the room,
Click here to view the secret text


1N 1E: And here goes nice fighting room(I like them). :) This might be hard for newbies though, so newbies... BEWARE(I'm kkidding; after some tries newbie will solve this room)

1E: 4x2 tar blob would make this room harder a little...

2E: After a one unlucky try, I've killed the last wraithwing using
Click here to view the secret text
:cool

1N 2E: hmm... yeah, player needs to be quite fast to complte this. It's terribly easy though.

2N 2E: If there would be roaches instead of rock giants, it would be easier(and worse). But with rock giants it's nice. It isn't hard at all to make the adder eat... erm...
Click here to view the secret text


2N 1E: Cutting that loong adder was quite boring. Killing guards was simple. :~(

3N 1E: aah... massive battle... you don't have to do anything here, and this is bad. :~(

3N 2E: A nice cage-room. Those aumtliches were quite challenging. Also, I heard a voice of 39th Slayer! He's there, in this room... among those usual clowns... 39th, where're you?

3N: Agrh!

General comments: poor room design(i.e. empty rooms) spoils some fun for me. :~( Some puzzles require a lot fighting skills, some are very simple. Now onto the second level.
11-22-2008 at 06:07 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
The point of the massive battle you will see in future levels.
And if you think the story is crazy now, just wait till you get to Life Creation Facility! :D

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 11-22-2008 06:19 PM]
11-22-2008 at 06:19 PM
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mxvladi
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Comments on "Underground":

General: Probably I'm too critiseful, but why it's called underground? Its' style is aboveground; it has no darkness... and a lot of citizens... :|

Entrance: This reminds of that room in the city, with a lot of citizens... :|

1N: The script of one of citizens has no "end" command. That kinda spoils the room. Also, what's the point of so many citizens? :-O

2N: Solving the room by starting on goblin half is A LOT easier - adder will simply stuck on platfrom and then it's easy to kill it.

3N: It was surprisely difficult! :thumbsup It took me a while to solve it.

1N 2E: Those spiders(which were invisible since player was far from them) were chep trick-like. I didn't like that. And the room didn't make me think a lot actually...

1N 1E: Easy wraithwing-killing room. I didn't use that one-tile wall at 21,22.

1E: oh... I don't like those tar-filled rooms. :~(

Okay, I won't comment on the rest of this level, since it's also easy. Instead, I'll comment on... Life Creation facility!

General: better than previous levels. A LOT better.

entrance: Hah. Nice, simple puzzle. Far enjoyable than some of harder puzzles on previous levels. :thumbsup

1E: Ugh... stalwarts help Empire? :lol

1S 1E: Well... that mimic manipulation was a little boring, but anyway, a nice room.

2S 1E: This was a little tricky! :thumbsup

3S 1E: That was even harder than previous one. :thumbsup :thumbsup

4S 1E: This is less difficult than previous rooms, but slayer manipulation was interesting.

4S: And this was very hard. Very hard, I sezzit! Awesome. :thumbsup

4S 1W: Golbins were hard to kill. :smile

3S 1W: I've killed guard on orthosquares and goblins on orthosquares before, so this one wasn't very hard.

2S 1W: again battle. :|

1S: Wait... this is so easy? :-O
11-22-2008 at 06:46 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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Mind commenting on Training Area? I really appreciate the feedback!
Comments:
Detour 1N: added force arrows! You cannot retreat! Muhahaha...
3N: did you get it? The only way I beat it was by moving all the waterskippers into a nice, pretty line...

Underground: Um...It's called underground because Beethro, well, went underground!
1N: The citizens have to stay there! That's the point of having them (like TCB: The City Part II). I made it easier to get by them by planting some bombs...
3N: Thank you! I actually found this easier than some of my other rooms on this level.
Um...You found once west easy? You must be a maniac! :D
What about 2N3W and 2N1E?

Again, please post some comments on training area! I've gotten zero feedback on it!

Life Creation Facility:
Entrance: I like this one too!
1E: You didn't like the presentation that took me seventeen years to script? *sob* The monster-killers are not stalwarts. They are imperial guards placed there to kill the monsters quickly in case they go crazy and start killing everybody.
4S1E: Easier? For +++ sake, this room drove me crazy for two weeks before I solved this evil room that I designed!
3S1E and 4S: These two have lynchpins that make them much easier.
I could post them, but I'd be giving it away...
4S1W: Although this room is intended to be quite difficult, there is a lynchpin that makes killing the goblins much easier. Please PM me if you'd like to find out. Also, I could not beat this room without making 3 Slayer kills. Were you able to beat it without killing slayers? If so, I admire you!
3S1W: Umm...The dialogue sort of says that the room was partially cleared out before you got there.
2S1W: AAAARGH, MXVLADI! AAARGH! Don't you get it? Did you follow the dialogue? Please! The battles have to do with the story, didn't you see that? AAARGH!
:angry :angry :angry
1S: It's supposed to be a nice gateway into the next level: Building Platform.

I hope you found what I wrote in a PM to you to be true! Please post comments on Training Area and Building Platform and maybe a few more Underground rooms. Thanks!

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11-22-2008 at 09:55 PM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: A Side Road (+2)  
I've gone through Detour. The hold fits in the "easy, but not trivial" category that we have trouble filling. There are some scripting glitches that need fixing, and maybe a few rooms could stand a little work to make them more fun, but it's shaping up nicely so far.

You need more checkpoints. I will be much more likely to keep going with the hold if you upload a minor update now with checkpoints thoroughly added, rather than waiting for more stuff to be finished or whatever it is you're waiting for.

Specific comments:
Detour:
Entrance: Kind of random at first glance, but turns out to be a good puzzle. Speech repeats on re-entry.
1N: Easy, but decent puzzle. Is the briar supposed to be a timer? If so, it's not working, since I can beat the room and then leave to the south. Also, from a writing standpoint, there's no need to mention at the beginning that the briar is blocking things - that will become clear.
1N1E: Horde room. Aumtlich in horde rooms is, oddly enough, not something we see much of. I killed the snakes last. Note that the player doesn't have to solve it by entering from the west.
1N2E: Nice briar room. The correct path is pretty obvious.
2E: The trapdoor dropping is a bit tedious. I can kill all the wraithwings without really getting into the trapdoor area, and I don't need the platform; what were your intentions here?
1E: Killed the mud mother on my way in, killed the goblins in the single-tile passage behind the hot tiles, and then hit the orb and went into the hot tile area. I let the guards and slayers kill themselves on the hot tiles. Are so many guards necessary? The slayers make sure that the door stays open, which is convenient. This is probably the best room of the level.
2N1E: Not hard, but enjoyable, if only to watch the adder munch on the slayers.
2N2E: A nice idea, but clearing all the tarstuff is a little tedious. It's OK as is, and a decent optimization puzzle, but you might consider not requiring clearing everything, and maybe stick a couple more rock giant pens in to compensate (maybe with a mechanism to force the adder to be killed last).
3N1E: Stalwarts win, sort of - a bunch of slayers are still around. Also, on reentry everything plays again (but this time of course the Stalwarts win). This is inelegant, and you might consider scripting to place them initially such that they don't appear when you re-enter the room after clearing it.
3N2E: Not a fan. Orbs randomly letting batches of creatures out. Not much of a puzzle, or even much of a horde room, I'm afraid.
3N: I just let the briar take care of everything for me, but there is at least a little thinking involved, so it's fine.

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11-22-2008 at 11:26 PM
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zwetschenwasser
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Most of the comments you're talking about pertain to the download on the first post. I've fixed practically everything in the level, such as removing trapdoors, making the stalwarts win the battle, and adding checkpoints, but since I can't unattach files (gives me a blank screen), I'm putting my newer versions on lower posts. My latest version is in the post before mxvladi's comments. It also seems that everyone is avoiding Training Area (or Building Platform and some of Underground, for that matter). I'd greatly appreciate comments on those particular levels. Thanks! :D

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 11-23-2008 12:23 AM]
11-23-2008 at 12:22 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: A Side Road (+1)  
Ah. Well, that's annoying.

However, aside from the scripting and checkpoint fixes, most of my comments still stand.
2E: Clearing trapdoors is still tedious, and has nothing to do with killing the wraithwings, but at least with the slayers it's more of a puzzle.
1E: I don't need the speed potion.

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[Last edited by Dischorran at 11-23-2008 12:38 AM]
11-23-2008 at 12:26 AM
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zwetschenwasser
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It's not my fault that my browser gives me a blank screen... :weep

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11-23-2008 at 12:29 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: A Side Road (+2)  
And, since you now have checkpoints, comments on the Underground (and yes, I'll comment on the Training Area at some point). I'm being hypercritical, but that doesn't mean that I dislike the hold; just trying to make it better.

Underground:
Entrance: That's not how you spell "cemetery".
2N: Filler, I assume. Luring the adder onto one platform makes it trivial to kill.
3N: Very nice! Needs checkpoints, though.
1N: Script replays on reentrance. Also, retraversal is rather annoying.
2N1E: OK horde room, with a generous briar timer.
1N2E: I liked this, but the room would be better without spiders. I solved it entirely by fegundo. Not being able to move SW without letting all the monsters in is a nice touch; might it make sense to introduce similar restrictions in other directions?
1E: *groan* I don't suppose I can talk you out of this one? What are the bombs for?
1W: This is a nice puzzle. Could probably stand to reduce the number of trapdoors, though. The arrow maze is easy.
1N2W: Definitely a quality room, but disproportionately hard unless I'm missing something. Since it's good, I wouldn't recommend messing with it, but you might consider making it a secret room.
2N1W: What's the point of the swordless tokens? I don't think the adder/door/find-the-hidden-wall section adds much to the room - maybe top section should just be an east-west hallway.
2N2W: Again, why the swordless token, and why make me drop all the trapdoors?
2N3W: I can go in, blow up a bunch of stuff, and leave. Or I can just stay on the door, watch the cutscene, and leave safely. I assume all the language weirdness in the cutscene is intentional.
3N2W: Um, I'm pretty sure I didn't skip any rooms. Why?

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11-23-2008 at 02:53 AM
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zwetschenwasser
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icon Re: A Side Road (0)  
Entrance: That's not how you spell cemetery
:lol :lol Wow! You beat the word geek! Congrats!
2N: Yes, a filler while moving on to the next room.
Other 2 rooms: Swordless tokens just add variety.
2N3W: Aw...cmon! Hop inside and do the puzzle! It's harder than you think (because of the slayers). Yes, the dialogue weirdness is intentional
3N2W: Just in case you didn't hop into 2N3W and do the puzzle, which is harder than you think (because of the slayers).
1E: Nope, sorry! It's here to stay

Don't worry, though! I think you'll find that the puzzles get more lynchpinny and the aesthetics gets nicer as the hold goes on... I guess I'm biased towards underground layouts. ;)

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[Last edited by zwetschenwasser at 11-23-2008 03:41 AM]
11-23-2008 at 03:33 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: A Side Road (+1)  
zwetschenwasser wrote:
Other 2 rooms: Swordless tokens just add variety.
But it's, well, useless variety. All I do is step on them, and then step on them again to get my sword back before continuing. Superfluous elements as decorations or minor puzzle elements are one thing, but this sort of thing just strikes me as sloppy. It's like having a corridor that goes to the edge of the screen and just stops, with no adjoining room - it's messy. In a good hold, each and every element is present for a reason.

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11-23-2008 at 08:19 AM
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icon Re: A Side Road (+2)  
And I'm through the Training Area. This level felt like a step backward from the previous two, I'm afraid; the rooms seemed overly random and slapdash, and the theme's maybe a bit forced. There are some decent rooms here, but a couple rather bad ones too that you may want to replace.

Entrance: Getting the sword back is trivial, and has a delay after having the orb struck. Dropping trapdoors does nothing besides getting the slayers off my back. I lose the sword again on reentry, which is bad. I've run from slayers before in this hold, and will do it again later, so this room doesn't add much.
1N: Is it intentional to be able to activate the conquer token with a decoy and not have to clear the tarstuff?
2N: OK slayer room. People will complain about unpredictable scripting here, but it's not too bad.
3N: Clever, but maybe you can do more with the shape-changing beyond just trying them until you find the right one? It's possible to leave the room as something other than Beethro, at which point you're stuck and need to restore.
3N1E: Easy mimic room. Mimics can't read scrolls, but people in the editor can - if you realize that the seep are overly accessible, shouldn't you fix that rather than inserting a scroll complaining about it?
2N1E: The briar killed most of the monsters, the fegundo took out the adder, I killed the aumtlich as they approached, and then the fegundo cleared the way to the exit. OK room.
1N1E: I'd call this an annoying orb puzzle, but it's not a puzzle, it's a bunch of cracked orbs with random effects. There's promise in the idea of needing to hit some to clear the way to others, but you can't just plunk down a bunch of random orbs and call it a puzzle! Also needs checkpoints.
1E: OK. Checkpoints!
1S1E: I liked this room; there's a slight twist on the goblin-killing mechanic. Easy efficiency.
2S1E: I never moved out of the entrance. Easy.

Life Creation Facility:
Entrance: OK small guard puzzle.
1E: The speech is covering up what's going on. You *have* tested this level yourself, right?
1S1E: OK room. I think you could do more with the bomb placement; it doesn't seem to have much rhyme or reason right now.
2S1E: I like the aesthetics. Aumtlich turn out not to be much of a challenge in this environment.
3S1E: Nice room. I barricaded myself in the upper left with two decoys to force the guards to come at me one at a time. However, the third mimic was immediately placed on the conquer token, which will make the optimizers very unhappy; the conquer token doesn't seem to help anything and should probably be removed.
4S1E: The slayers and roaches are going after the stalwarts and blocking themselves in. Is this deliberate (i.e., again, you *have* been testing these rooms yourself, right?)?


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[Last edited by Dischorran at 11-24-2008 03:17 AM]
11-24-2008 at 01:41 AM
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