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Jatopian
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icon curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
So I've discovered that when one takes a speed potion, all clones are affected by the speed potion as well. I'd like to offer everyone a friendly challenge to provide narrative justification for this.

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08-21-2007 at 01:07 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
All clones are invisible if one of them takes an invisibility potion too, so I imagine properties such as invisibility and speed of thought must be transferred along with conciousness.

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08-21-2007 at 01:10 AM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+2)  
I'm just glad he asked for a narrative justification, because a gameplay justification should be pretty evident. Anyway, carry on.

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08-21-2007 at 01:42 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+2)  
What's more curious is the fact that sworded adders die twice as fast (even on a guard's sword) when you are sped up.
08-21-2007 at 02:10 AM
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NoahT
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Jatopian wrote:
So I've discovered that when one takes a speed potion, all clones are affected by the speed potion as well. I'd like to offer everyone a friendly challenge to provide narrative justification for this.

Well, considering the type of world the Eighth is, it is probably the magic of the potions accompanying the consciousness, like Chaco said. Unless the two kinds of justification (narrative and gameplay) aren't as similar as I think, Chaco's view ought to work for both.

Just my two cents.

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08-21-2007 at 02:10 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Rabscuttle wrote:
What's more curious is the fact that sworded adders die twice as fast (even on a guard's sword) when you are sped up.

Ow... that sounds like a bug, actually. And after looking, it's quite a tricky one to fix: it's quite easy to ban all swords belonging to non-hasted characters from working on half-turns... not so easy to get in the exceptions for swords that just *appeared* on the half-turn (as an example, try stepping on a Disarm Tile or placing a Decoy).

I'm thinking that the only swords that should always work on half-turns (regardless of movement and swords appearing from nowhere) are the player's own and Mimics. Inactive clones and decoys probably shouldn't (although inactive clones can apparently activate fuses during half-turns, for some reason), but that's open for debate. Any comments on this?
08-21-2007 at 04:03 AM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
I personally don't think magic really works, since Erik says the Eighth doesn't have anything supernatural. I can kind of see that it's increased reflex and so transfers with consciousness, but invisibility...
TFMurphy wrote:
inactive clones can apparently activate fuses during half-turns, for some reason
Sounds like a bug to me also...

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08-21-2007 at 04:41 AM
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golfrman
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
So whats the hot tile behavior in the title?

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08-21-2007 at 06:26 AM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
This question came up during testing of a puzzle Jatopian made with all three of these elements. :)

I guess it's also interesting that mimics fry after just half a turn on hot tiles, while clones don't fry until they've been on hot tiles for a full turn.
08-21-2007 at 06:29 AM
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Rabscuttle
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
TFMurphy wrote:
Rabscuttle wrote:
What's more curious is the fact that sworded adders die twice as fast (even on a guard's sword) when you are sped up.

Ow... that sounds like a bug, actually. And after looking, it's quite a tricky one to fix: it's quite easy to ban all swords belonging to non-hasted characters from working on half-turns... not so easy to get in the exceptions for swords that just *appeared* on the half-turn (as an example, try stepping on a Disarm Tile or placing a Decoy).

I'm thinking that the only swords that should always work on half-turns (regardless of movement and swords appearing from nowhere) are the player's own and Mimics. Inactive clones and decoys probably shouldn't (although inactive clones can apparently activate fuses during half-turns, for some reason), but that's open for debate. Any comments on this?

On consideration, I prefer it as it is - it's the only way I can think of that is a disadvantage to using a speed potion (except for high scores, but that's not in-game) : keeping adders alive.

A 3-length adder travelling under a sword will be killed if you are sped up, but not if you are at normal speed.
And a long adder being killed in a dead end can force you to limit how long you spend in a state of speed.
08-21-2007 at 07:16 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Rabscuttle wrote:
On consideration, I prefer it as it is - it's the only way I can think of that is a disadvantage to using a speed potion (except for high scores, but that's not in-game) : keeping adders alive.

A 3-length adder travelling under a sword will be killed if you are sped up, but not if you are at normal speed.
And a long adder being killed in a dead end can force you to limit how long you spend in a state of speed.

Seems rather inconsistent though. There's also both other ways to make taking a Speed Potion ill-advised *and* at least one other way to get a timed event working the same number of turns under hasted status: scripting. Yes, that isn't a pure puzzle mechanic, but architects have been known to integrate scripting well and make it both visible and logical to the player.

I think I'd rather a new element if we're going to allow for disadvantages to hasted states rather than allow adders (and technically rattlesnakes) to die in what amounts to double-time: it's not like them or the swords of the guards are hasted, after all. (It's also inconsistent with things like hot tile damage, which only take effect on the adder's turn and so forth)
08-21-2007 at 10:57 AM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
The thing is that it might destroy a hold to change this now :(
08-21-2007 at 11:00 AM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+3)  
Jatopian wrote:
TFMurphy wrote:
inactive clones can apparently activate fuses during half-turns, for some reason
Sounds like a bug to me also...

I'm not so sure... the only ways a clone could activate a fuse during a half-turn is when it's just been placed (which is the same as Beethro stepping on a fuse during a half-turn) or when a fuse is cut during a half-turn. Really, I only brought it up because it surprised me that inactive clones were being processed during half-turns (as opposed to stuff like decoys which aren't), but activating fuses is the only thing they do.

CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
I guess it's also interesting that mimics fry after just half a turn on hot tiles, while clones don't fry until they've been on hot tiles for a full turn.

Already fixed in 3.1.

Blondbeard wrote:
The thing is that it might destroy a hold to change this now :(

Let's be fair: all 17 TCB holds (including TCB itself) currently existing have been released before the first stable patch to TCB, a patch which already contains a number of game logic changes that can severely impact holds, and a few more possible bug fixes of that nature still pending. And this is all still before TCB's considered ready for general release.

Both that and the "Avoid Exploiting Quirks" guideline does already suggest a certain cautiousness should be taken when developing a hold using TCB elements. I'm a little concerned that this wasn't brought up earlier while the affected hold was still in development. While breaking published holds is something to avoid, I equally don't like the idea of cementing game mechanics just because someone raced to exploit it instead of reporting it, at least this early in TCB's life.

Which leads us to this kind of sticky situation. The only two things I can quickly think of to help as a compromise would be to either make Decoys hasted (which would be another inconsistency, but not as bad since they're usually placed by Beethro - it also helps that this is a purely non-scripting choice), or enable a way to make Characters hasted (which would only work when the player themselves is hasted, so it has some unintuitiveness there... but this whole thing is unintuitive in the first place; and the other drawback would be that this is a scripting choice). Would either of these work for the hold in question?
08-21-2007 at 01:20 PM
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Blondbeard
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
I guess so ;) One solution would be that mimics (even preplaced mimics that don't move) are hasted while Beethro are. That kind of makes sense, right? (Or not...) Meh! I don't know. I didn't even reflect over the fact that this behaviour was a quirk when I saw it. But you are right of course, although I do want to point out that I don't think anybody has "raced to exploit something instead of reporting". And I'm not even sure that a change would actually break any rooms in any holds. I know it will effect some.

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-21-2007 01:39 PM]
08-21-2007 at 01:37 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Blondbeard wrote:
I guess so ;) One solution would be that mimics (even preplaced mimics that don't move) are hasted while Beethro are. That kind of makes sense, right? (Or not...) Meh! I don't know. I didn't even reflect over the fact that this behaviour was a quirk when I saw it. But you are right of course, although I do want to point out that I don't think anybody has "raced to exploit something instead of reporting". And I'm not even sure that a change would actually break any rooms in any holds. I know it will effect some.

Well, that's a relief. Pre-placed mimics should be hasted anyways, I agree (they move, turn and wait and do everything when hasted Beethro does). Mimic-graphic characters on the other hand are a different problem.

EDIT: Maybe the resolved identity of characters could be used to resolve that... a character with certain graphics can act during hasted turns? That could do the trick... the question would then become: which characters should act when hasted, though. There's both advantages and disadvantages to allowing Mimic-NPCs to being hasted. Maybe an Imperative would be a better idea....

I wasn't trying to be accusatory with the "raced to exploit" comment... but, like I said, I'm surprised it hadn't come up earlier, and it's a little frustrating when things happen like this.

It's still up in the air if and how this should be fixed, but knowing the impact on holds is always useful. Total breakage of rooms is nastier than "slight change to demos or intended solution"; I know one room in TCB that's going to break a whole *HOST* of demos and require a more involved solution when 3.1 comes out (unless it's been changed slightly to compensate).

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 08-21-2007 01:52 PM]
08-21-2007 at 01:46 PM
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Blondbeard wrote:
I guess so ;) One solution would be that mimics (even preplaced mimics that don't move) are hasted while Beethro are. That kind of makes sense, right? (Or not...) Meh! I don't know. I didn't even reflect over the fact that this behaviour was a quirk when I saw it. But you are right of course, although I do want to point out that I don't think anybody has "raced to exploit something instead of reporting". And I'm not even sure that a change would actually break any rooms in any holds. I know it will effect some.

Well, actually a couple of rooms in Troshian Tower will be affected (and one will become impossible I think...) When I first discovered this behavior I wondered why adders worked like that, but I didn't think it was unintended behavior. :(

Edit: Though it can quite easily be fixed...

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[Last edited by Rheb at 08-21-2007 01:56 PM]
08-21-2007 at 01:51 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+2)  
Rheb wrote:
Well, actually a couple of rooms in Troshian Tower will be affected (and one will become impossible I think...) When I first discovered this behavior I wondered why adders worked like that, but I didn't think it was unintended behavior. :(

Don't worry over much. Even if something *is* done to fix it, I'm certain we can puzzle a way around it for your hold. As a quick question: would a hasted mimic or a hasted NPC solve the problem in the affected rooms? I noted Decoy as a solution in one of my previous posts simply because Decoys don't turn while Mimics do - a stationary NPC would also do the trick, but they'd need some extra exceptions to solve it. But if you needed to, say, lure a guard into the correct position to kill an adder quickly, then yes, that's going to make things a lot harder.

I guess we can see what the coders think - my opinion alone on the effect isn't going to change it, after all ^_^ If no fix is made, then your hold's fine as is. And I'll admit, it *is* nice for Speed Potions to have some kind of gameplay drawback and further effects. I just wish for a more intuitive/consistent way for it.

EDIT: I tested the behaviour further. Not only Adders and Rattlesnakes are affected, but Orbs are naturally affected (making toggle gates particularly impossible to use with Guards and Slayers - although it *IS* amusing watching a Slayer try to open such a door to get at you), as are Mirrors in particular situations, notably when you push a mirror on a half-turn onto a sworded role that moved forward during the previous full turn. (This isn't related to the bug fixed in 3.1 - there are ways to push a mirror onto a moving sword that doesn't destroy them) So, not isolated to snakes, and the Orb part is a little troubling.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 08-21-2007 03:53 PM]
08-21-2007 at 02:05 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Sure, we should fix the behavior of sword hits being registered for entities that aren't actually taking a turn on the half-turns. It would be good to get this fix into 3.1.

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08-21-2007 at 05:15 PM
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TFMurphy
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File: DROD Hasted Swords.patch (5.3 KB)
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+3)  
Been trying to see how best to implement the fix: as I said, it's easy to lock off all non-player/non-Mimics, but much harder to get all the exceptions where swords *should* work on half-turns. Attached is my current best attempt.

The basic idea is that each PlayerDouble gets a new boolean called bLastSwordState, which contains the HasSword value at the end of the last turn. If a PlayerDouble did not have a sword at the end of the last turn, then the fact that they're causing a sword hit on this half-turn must mean that their sword has appeared, so they should be allowed to cause damage. An extra subroutine called at the end of ProcessTurn in DbRooms.cpp resets the bLastSwordState value for all monsters. Technically, this should probably be done for the player as well, but I had trouble finding the perfect place to do so. So, the code I've got here is going to need some tightening up.

The routine I added at the end of Character.cpp doesn't seem to work as I planned: I was trying to sync bLastSwordState between the character and the monster it was turning into, but it seemed to get overwritten later or similar. This was so that characters that turned into monsters on half-turns wouldn't cause damage twice. The default value of bLastSwordState being true (always start with a sword unless otherwise set) seems to catch this fine though.

The default value also works for the situation on the very first half-turn after Turn 0 (if you start a room hasted): all sworded characters in the room should assume that they started with a sword. I couldn't think of a situation where this would cause problems (you'd need to both start the sworded character off without a sword on Turn 0, but they would need to move or otherwise get their sword back by the very first half-turn, and you'd need to start the room hasted), but it again might be better done another way.

Two things came up while testing. First, there's another bug with Turn Into Monster: I had an NPC with Guard graphics use Appear and Turn Into Monster on the same turn, and made sure it triggered a bomb when it appeared. This caused an assertion error:
Assertion error in line 1274 of .\CurrentGame.cpp: "pMonster"
Assertion error in line 251 of .\CueEvents.cpp: "pvPrivateData"

Second, I couldn't get Set Player Sword to work correctly with my attempted patch. Specifically, a Beethro NPC (not the player) I had in the room got his sword back on a half-turn and didn't kill the brain he was facing. This is limited to the Beethro NPC/monster only - a clone I also had in the room worked fine.

Anyways, that's all I've done so far. Probably missed some easy way to pull all this off, but hope this analysis helps, at least.
08-21-2007 at 06:13 PM
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coppro
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
While I don't have the code in front of me, couldn't you just add a virtual method called bSwordOnHalfTurn or something similar to determine whether the hit is processed?
08-21-2007 at 07:51 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
coppro wrote:
While I don't have the code in front of me, couldn't you just add a virtual method called bSwordOnHalfTurn or something similar to determine whether the hit is processed?

Well, isn't that just the same than a check at the beginning of ProcessSwordHit? The difficulty isn't where to put the main code that bans a sword from hitting - it's deciding how to mark swords that *should* still activate on half-turns. Still, it's possibly a good idea to create a seperate bSwordOnHalfTurn method just to keep the checks self-contained and readable, especially given what checks should be made aren't quite set in stone.

The problem, I think, is that although hasted roles should definitely cause damage on half-turns (and in the patch I wrote, I classed that as the player and his Mimics), there are many places where a sword should still cause damage on a half-turn, simply because it's just appeared and didn't cause damage on the full turn. If the player deploys a Decoy, or a character with a sword appears right on top of a bomb, these really need to be handled.

So the exception is "when a sword moves to a place it wasn't before". There's two ways this can happen: either something with a sword has moved during the half-turn, or a new sword has appeared (either a new role appeared or a sword was unsheathed).

The first (movement) possibly needs to be caught somehow, but I don't know how to do it. More to the point, I can't think of a current way for anything but the player and his mimics to move on a half-turn. Even characters will wait until the next full turn to do move commands. And even if one could without being hasted itself, we'd need a way of checking that they moved during the half-turn. I don't think things like sword orientation or prevX/Y work in this instance, since they don't get updated on half-turns if the monster doesn't move. So perhaps another boolean? Or maybe cross that bridge when we actually come to it....

The second was the one I was trying to focus on: the appearance of a sword where one wasn't before. This means retaining data of what state the sword was at the start of the half-turn or the end of the preceding full-turn. It also means catching things like characters using Appear or AppearAt and placing doubles. I'm not sure I caught all the possibilities though, hence some of the problems.
08-21-2007 at 09:22 PM
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coppro
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
I think that all player doubles should be processed at half-turns when hasty, including decoys and inactive clones. Other things should be done only on full turns, for flawless consistency (and how can a character appear on a half turn anyway?)
08-21-2007 at 11:08 PM
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TFMurphy
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Scripting. Scripts run every turn, regardless. And while Move waits until the next full turn, Appear/Appear At and Disappear occur immediately. (You can even get a character to look like they're hasted using this, if you're careful - I *think* this is used in Pirate Hideout in TCB for a particular effect. EDIT: Upon quickly checking, it doesn't - it just seems to because it uses a 1-turn move (which only happens on a full turn) followed by a disappear (which can happen on the next half-turn if you're hasted))

Also the placement of clones and decoys occuring on half turns and thus causing damage is just as consistent as stepping on a fuse on a half turn and having the bomb its connected to explode a full turn earlier than it would if you'd waited. The decoy/inactive clone's action for the half-turn is being placed.

My main reasoning behind inactive clones and decoys not getting hasted turns is a question of logic: what is it about speed potions that allow you to wait in one place and hurt an adder twice as fast with your sword? The answer that came most readily to me was "conscious movement". Mimics follow the player's hasted movements slavishly. Decoys and inactive clones do not: they completely ignore the player's movement. The only time they ever 'act' on a half-turn is when an outside event affects them: the player controlling a new clone, or a Disarm Token or Set Player Sword being used, or either of the two being placed on a half-turn.

Still, that's not a gameplay consideration: and really, gameplay-wise, it could go either way. But while I could accept consistency with an inactive clone getting hasted turns, a speed potion causing already placed decoy potions to get hasted turns seems a little much, especially once we start exploring things like different Player Roles and decoys always looking like Beethro (thus giving less of a link between the player and any decoys). It'd be nice to have a stationary sword role that can be placed that will still keep active on hasted turns, but Decoys filling that role seems to go against what seems logical. Your milage may vary, though.

[Last edited by TFMurphy at 08-22-2007 12:12 AM]
08-22-2007 at 12:05 AM
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
it's the only way I can think of that is a disadvantage to using a speed potion (except for high scores, but that's not in-game) : keeping adders alive.
I believe that the gaze of an aumtlich destroys orbs on half turns. I used this to make a fairly compact "speed potion" gate.

At the time I didn't consider this a bug, but I guess it's the same type of behavior as mentioned above.

[Last edited by starwed at 08-23-2007 06:16 PM]
08-23-2007 at 06:15 PM
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (0)  
TFMurphy wrote:
Don't worry over much. Even if something *is* done to fix it, I'm certain we can puzzle a way around it for your hold. As a quick question: would a hasted mimic or a hasted NPC solve the problem in the affected rooms? I noted Decoy as a solution in one of my previous posts simply because Decoys don't turn while Mimics do - a stationary NPC would also do the trick, but they'd need some extra exceptions to solve it. But if you needed to, say, lure a guard into the correct position to kill an adder quickly, then yes, that's going to make things a lot harder.

Sorry for not answering, I've been to a campish thing with my school.
Well, in the room that would become impossible there's a still standing NPC that needs to cut a adder, which will only pass once, two times.

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08-24-2007 at 02:14 PM
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
See this post. The room will still be solveable...
08-24-2007 at 11:52 PM
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (0)  
I think this topic is a good example of the bad things to come if a Pointdropper is appointed.

Well, "bad things" might not make much sense now, but I'm telling you, the value of the point will go down.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 08-25-2007 01:28 AM]
08-25-2007 at 01:26 AM
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (0)  
Kwakstur wrote:
I think this topic is a good example of the bad things to come if a Pointdropper is appointed.
In what way?
08-25-2007 at 01:51 AM
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Kwakstur
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (0)  
If most topics started to have as many mod-ups as this one, then like I said, the value of the point goes down.

Sure, the Pointdropper won't be this liberal, but (s)he could be pretty close. All posts except the three most recent ones (4 including this one) have 1, 2, or 3 points. You might not see all that coming from the pointdropper, but I would bet that, if a pointdropper is appointed, there may be more posts with a +1 than there are posts with a 0, and so a +1 is no longer special. Then a +3 is special.

Remember: I'm not saying that the pointdropper will be the sole reason that a topic will look like this one (with points everywhere instead of in three or four posts). You have to remember that everyone else will contribute since, thanks to the pointdropper, everyone has more points to give.


Actually, that first post was partly a joke, but it's still something I believe to be true.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 08-25-2007 07:19 AM]
08-25-2007 at 07:17 AM
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Briareos
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icon Re: curious behavior with clones, speed potions, & hot tiles (+1)  
Kwakstur wrote:
If most topics started to have as many mod-ups as this one, then like I said, the value of the point goes down.
Considering that this topic is very relevant to the game, it's inner workings and changes/improvements to it I fail to see why most of the above posts shouldn't have been modded up. Even Microsoft needs the inner workings of Windows explained to them now and then, as their acquisition of Sysinternals shows... :D

I'd rather start to worry if posts are getting modded stochastically...

np: Beanfield - Close To You (Funkstörung Remix) (Funkstörung - Appendix)

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08-25-2007 at 10:14 AM
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