aztcg7
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This was originally posted way back in 2004, and so far as I can tell, hasn't been implemented. The original thread is here.

There would be challenges that you could add to "official" challenges by the original creator, possibly with a download of an ancillary file. If you have CaravelNet, you can get updates to this file when a new one is published with more challenges.

In the thread, they talk about having unofficial challenges. I suppose that they could end up merged into official ones if the author wants to, but maybe just 1 big file with all the unofficial challenges built in, updated with CaravelNet or downloaded off the forum.

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Jeff_Ray...
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Maybe the author could make challenges and input them in the hold? :/

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Kwakstur
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Well, there is one main problem; it is too much trouble to implement.

In order for the game to track certain enemies (to make sure they stay alive) may not be possible with the current system, depending on how stuff currently works.

And there are many other types of challenges. While people can easily know when they failed a challenge listed on the Challenges board, it is hard to get the game to know when you complete/fail a challenge.

So somebody comes up with some genius type of challenge. A challenge unlike any other. Guess what? They probably won't be able to add it to thier hold, because it isn't in the drop-down list of challenge types. And that list is probably limited, as it would take a long time to implement each type.

That's why the Challenges board is there. This new system would be noticeable (especially if required for a Master Wall), but, let's face it, we can't get the game to recognize all this stuff. We can recognize the rules of a challenge, but computers aren't as smart as us.



We can, however, insert many types of challenges in our own holds via NPCs. And somebody in the other topic mentioned the screen going black and the room restarting when you mess up. You can even have that happen in your NPC-made challenges by adding Go To Screen Entrance.
I suggest doing it by having a square in some room that sends you a secret, nonrequired copy of the room with the challenge. The room with the challenge will be identical to a room in the hold, but this copy can only be reached by that Go To Screen Entrance, and it has an NPC who is scripted to check the challenge.
It is a limited system, but it is better than completely changing how DROD works to allow game-controlled challenges.

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aztcg7
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If the brunt of challenges can be implemented via NPC scripting, then why would it be hard to add built in support for room challenges? Challenges where you do whole level or hold in a specific order or with caveats might be more complicated, but I have faith in the brilliant DROD programmers.

I envision a little button on the side somewhere, that would tell you whether the room, level, or hold had a challenge that you could do. You click on it, and the challenge comes up. Then you can either accept the challenge or not, but if you do, the NPC becomes active and will actively enforce the challenge, until you complete it or you disable the challenge.

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Kwakstur
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aztcg7 wrote:
If the brunt of challenges can be implemented via NPC scripting, then why would it be hard to add built in support for room challenges? Challenges where you do whole level or hold in a specific order or with caveats might be more complicated, but I have faith in the brilliant DROD programmers.

I envision a little button on the side somewhere, that would tell you whether the room, level, or hold had a challenge that you could do. You click on it, and the challenge comes up. Then you can either accept the challenge or not, but if you do, the NPC becomes active and will actively enforce the challenge, until you complete it or you disable the challenge.

For a second there, I thought you were saying, "If we can script it with NPCs, why can't we program it in the actual game?"

But I had to delete 4 paragraphs when I realized that you're saying, "If we can script it with NPCs, why don't we tell the game to use an NPC upon entering the Challenge Window?"

And let me say this much: You're a genius.

I say that, in the editor, we will be able to go out of the room editor (into the hold/level select). Next to "Weather" will be "Challenges." In there, we will be able to select "New Challenge" and then name it, and then it will bring up a programming window that looks just like the NPC scripting window. It will have every single command that is in the NPC window, plus one other: "Set Challenge Status" to either "Completed" or "Failed" to tell the game when the player has, you know . . . well, let's not state the obvious.

In the game, there could be a button that appears in some unused spot (like the lower left) whenever there's a challenge, and then it would be like you said.

I love it!

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Dolan42
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If you're going to use scripting to enforce the challenges why not use scripting and variables to allow the user to select the challenge, enforce the challenge, and disable the challenge. I don't think it should be to hard to implement with scripting(disclaimer: I have never scripted anything in DROD so please ignore that last sentence if I'm being ignorant. )

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Kwakstur
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Well, I don't know how to use prompts. At all. And they aren't as user-friendly as a window integrated into the game. Yet they are the only thing that can simulate such a window. And they won't accurately show which ones are completed. Nor will you be able to count challenges toward hold mastery.
Not to mention you can't make the monsters reappear.

So scripting is limited, unfortunately. You can control stuff in the game, but you can't control windows and menus.

But you should try it. It's a fun learning experience in logic, and it greatly increases the possibilities for puzzles.

Well, it's fun to me, at least. I spend my lunch hours in school programming on my TI-83 Plus. Or, to by more accurate, I spend my lunch minutes.


EDIT: Oh my god, I'm posting every other post. I'm like one of those people who try to control the board and hijack every topic. I'm becoming one of . . . them.

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[Last edited by Kwakstur at 08-03-2007 07:45 PM]

Monkey
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Maybe we could have something like "Upload Room/Level/Hold Challenges", and the game would search for every topic starting post in the "Challenges" board with the room image/(level/hold) images hyperlinked and/or inputed into the post, and display those choices.
That way, you could get every challenge available, and they all come from the forum, not inputed by the hold author (him/her/it)self.

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Jatopian
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...I think current scripting is sufficient to integrate challenges.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 08-04-2007 12:16 AM : clarity]

aztcg7
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Jatopian wrote:
...I think current scripting is sufficient.

Meaning, what? That you dislike the idea of having optional Challenge NPC's for doing a challenge? I'm just not exactly sure what you're saying or replying to.

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Mattcrampy
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I think he's asking why it's necessary to implement an NPC explicitly to provide a challenge interface which, by necessity, is going to pretty much duplicate existing scripting, in order to have a... what, exactly? A count of what challenges are to be performed? How would this tie into mastering?

About the only thing here that doesn't already exist is the ability for people to add their own challenges to someone else's hold in an integrated fashion, and something I just thought of where you have a challenge menu, which populates as you finish holds with challenges that have been set in that hold.

See, something like that would be more appealing - a new option on the menu that has a list of challenges on it, like the challenges in Smash Bros. Melee or something like that. It sets up the room for you, and if you fail the challenge it stops the game and lets you reset it.

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aztcg7
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I think he's asking why it's necessary to implement an NPC explicitly to provide a challenge interface which, by necessity, is going to pretty much duplicate existing scripting, in order to have a... what, exactly? A count of what challenges are to be performed? How would this tie into mastering?

I don't think there would be any duplication at all. I've never used scripting, so I can't say how good it is, but it seems like it works very well. I think it's just an NPC that's scripted as a test of the challenge, and it you complete the challenge, it sets it as completed.

I don't think challenges should be required for mastery, because if that was the case, and you could add more, then you would have an ever moving target.

About the only thing here that doesn't already exist is the ability for people to add their own challenges to someone else's hold in an integrated fashion, and something I just thought of where you have a challenge menu, which populates as you finish holds with challenges that have been set in that hold.

That's a really good idea. Maybe challenges can have high scores, similar to regular high scores, and demos?

How would you script challenges that involve more than 1 room though? Like killing the teacher in any of Beethro's Teacher, except the second to last. Would you have 1 NPC that would be general enough to work in any of the rooms? Is that even possible? Would you have 1 master NPC that waited for input from each room NPC to see whether to set the challenge as completed or not? I don't have enough experience to know.

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Chaco
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I've also been thinking about challenges myself.

Simple things like "don't turn your sword" or "don't let the roach queen reach this spot" are easy enough to either script or use a pressure plate for. "Kill roaches only when they reach the scroll" is a bit harder but also possible.

However, I'm not really sure how to do the "leave n rooms unconquered when you play through KDD Level 25" challenge without forcing the user to Restore if they mess up.

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Mattcrampy
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By 'official' I mean challenges included with the hold, but okay.

The idea behind my challenge list is something like this: in rooms that you've completed and have edit access, you can make a 'challenge', which locks everything in the room and allows you to add NPCs that only load for the challenge, over the top of the rest of the room. These challenge NPCs would, I guess, have a 'pass challenge' or 'fail challenge' command.

Players would then go into the Challenge menu, where it would have all the challenges for the current hold up to where they've finished. Some of these would be 'official', meaning the hold author made them and included them with the hold, and some would be unofficial, and would be part of CaravelNet.

When you start one, it plonks Beethro down in a particular position and orientation, with the room as it would originally be, and if the "fail challenge" command's triggered, it'll stop the game and allow you to undo, restore to the last checkpoint or reset the challenge. The idea is that the challenge specifies a series of rooms in a hold where the challenge is set, a series of NPCs that determine pass or fail, and a location to start from. (A rating system much like holds use would also be in order.)

This'd also mean that challenges could introduce additional wrinkles, or even a 'master quest'. Not sure how you'd do challenges where a cleared room is part of it, though.

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mrimer
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Yeah, we were thinking of implementing scripted challenges in 3.0, but it seemed like too much work to get it all done for this release -- and I think we were right. The idea in my mind for counting a challenge involving room clearing was to have a "Pass challenge on room exit" command, analogous to the "End on room exit" command. As long as no "Fail challenge" commands are encountered at any time, this would mark the challenge as conquered on exit.

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