Mattcrampy
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I wonder: what holds, and in what sequence, would people recommend were essential for a well-rounded DROD player?

I would guess that Beethro's Teacher would be towards the end of the sequence, and KDD, JtRH and TCB would be somewhere at the start. Where would a hold like Bavato's Dungeon fit in? Is Claythro's Tower still seen as a must-see, or has it been superseded? Would one of the MetDROiD series count?

In olden times, there was such a thing as a 'canon' of works, which were representative of a particular author, or the entire field, and that someone versed in that field could reasonably be assumed to have read the canon. For instance, someone who's read the fantasy canon would have probably read Tolkien, Jordan, Eddings and maybe Pratchett. (It survives today as the word to describe those works set in a fictional universe which are considered significant for continuity purposes.)

Is there a DROD canon, and if there is, what would it be?

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silver
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Mattcrampy wrote:
For instance, someone who's read the fantasy canon would have probably read Tolkien, Zelazny, Donaldson, McCaffrey and maybe Saberhagen.

fixed.

actually, on second thought: let's start a topic in Anything about what constitutes essential fantasy and argue there instead of derailing this thread


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[Last edited by silver at 06-13-2007 04:31 AM]

coppro
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I was expecting a song.

Jatopian
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*shrug* The Smitemasters' Selections... except maybe The Choice (I just never cared for it, but can't quite say why).
Beyond that... well, I've at least played everything rated 6 or better. And Bad Evil Restaurant, naturally.
I also liked Great Uncle Yurgess Hold; it was what I first completed after getting stuck on JtRH.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 06-13-2007 04:12 AM : Great Uncle Yurgess Hold]

Ezlo
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Here's what I would recommend for a good hold checklist starting from a new DRODers perspective.

Complete the KDD/JTRH/TCB demo. All three of them, you might as well.

Complete up to around level 5 of official hold of choice.

Preferably JTRH or KDD.

Complete "Easy or Hard" by larrymurk

Complete "Odd Jobs Novice" by larrymurk

Compete "Smitemastery 101" by Jacob if you wish to spend the money.

Get up to level 15 of official hold of choice.

While accomplishing last task try these appropriate holds to get stuck on: "MeetDROiD Prime" by geomatrx, "Compass Point" by RoboBob3000, "Entrapment" by Pinnacle, "Dugan's Dungeon Revisited" by mrimer, "Loony Labyrinth" by Rob, and "Confusing Hold" by MeckMeck GRE.

Try "Halph has a Bad Day" by eytanz, "The Choice" by Oneiromancer, or "Beethro and the Secret Society" by Jacob next.

Conquer official hold of choice.

While accomplishing the next task try the apporpriate holds to get stuck on: "MetDROiD Echoes" by geomatrx, "Beethro's Bad Dream" by Jacob, Jacob's Grinfidel Quartet starting with "Labrinthitis (JTRH edition)", "Dr. E. Will's Mega Complex" by Zch and Kallor, "Veere's Dungeon" by Simon, and "Tunnel Vision" by Tim.

Master official hold of choice.

Now the fun stuff opens up!
Try "Perfection" by larrymurk, "A Quiet Place" by Ghogg, "Master Locks Expert" by larrymurk and "Claythro Tower" by ClaytonW.

Try mastering the two other official holds if you haven't done so already.

Last, but not least, the hardest recommended holds around. Try these at your own risk! "Beethro's Teacher" by Doom, "Bavato's Dungeon" by agaricus5, "Lone Soldier" by larrymurk, "The Fool's Errand" by Ricky, and "Figure or Ground" by Jacob.

EXTRA DIFFICULTY CHALLENGE! Complete KDD in AE.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-13-2007 06:26 PM]

Mattcrampy
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There's a thought: should Bad Evil Restaurant and Fool's Errand be on the list of 'must-play' holds, even though one's deliberately awful and the other's been nerfed with the introduction of sister gates?

And does anyone think any of Ezlo's suggested holds that aren't really necessary to play to consider oneself a well-rounded DROD expert?

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[Last edited by Mattcrampy at 06-13-2007 05:01 AM]

voyager
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An interesting question indeed. For my part, I think there is room in every canon for works that are notable for reasons other than high quality. There are usually notorious or controversial works that serve as a common point of reference despite being not especially good, and thus they can be seen as essential. Bad Evil Restaurant is a good example. I saw all kinds of allusions to Bad Evil Restaurant on the forums, and I knew full well it was going to be horrible, but eventually I decided to play it just so I could see what everyone was talking about.

Jatopian
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Mattcrampy wrote:
And does anyone think any of Ezlo's suggested holds that aren't really necessary to play to consider oneself a well-rounded DROD expert?

I can't really think of much that's absolutely necessary, except I suppose JtRH & TCB, if we're gonna say that. I personally see about 4 holds in his list that I either couldn't get past the first level of (yet) or deleted.
If we're going to define it in terms of how much they're talked about, then official holds, BER, TF'sE, MetDROiD, something by Jacob, something by larrymurk, something by Tim, Bavato's, maybe one of the War series, the original AE KDD in that engine... some others I can't think of because I'm tired.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 06-13-2007 05:20 AM]

NiroZ
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Well if anyone wants my input:

Tunnel Vison
Compass point
Great Uncle Yurgress' Hold
Beethro's Day Off
...are all very good holds. I'd Say Bravato's and Claythro's would also have to be included, seeing as they always seem to popup in hold discussions. A Fools Errand for the same reason.


This is, of course, ignoring Official holds.

EDIT: And how can I forget Smallsome Swicks!

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 06-16-2007 10:37 AM]

Beef Row
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Mattcrampy wrote:
And does anyone think any of Ezlo's suggested holds that aren't really necessary to play to consider oneself a well-rounded DROD expert?

To me, this actually didn't seem so much like a list of holds to complete to become well rounded, as a good strategy to progress from novice to expert player.

Probably a better strategy than I used: Complete AE, attempt Bavato's in AE, get slaughtered. Download JTRH demo, promptly attempt Bavato's again in JTRH. I'd highly recommend Bavato, but not THAT early in one's DROD experience.

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Rabscuttle
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Mattcrampy wrote:
And does anyone think any of Ezlo's suggested holds that aren't really necessary to play to consider oneself a well-rounded DROD expert?

I assume expert means familiar with the range of holds available, not expert as in good at DROD.

* Official holds and story SMSssss
* a MetDROiD hold (screw linearity)
* a war hold (crazy go nuts hack and slash)
* A Quiet Place/Loony Labyrinth (meta-puzzles)
* Palace of Puzzles, PoP JtRH edition, Pelcho's Puzzles, Sunken Pyramid (non-meta-puzzles)
* Figure or Ground (conquering rooms multiple times)
* Fool's Errand, Deja Vu, Compass Point (aha holds)
* Arena 3 (lynchpins)
* Seasons (pictures)
(some of the above could doubtless be switched with different examples)

Misc others:
Bavato's Dungeon (first high difficulty hold?), Bad Evil Restaurant (has teh neether!)

authors to sample:
Tim, Larry, Doom, boyblue, Jacob.
Compilation holds also give a broad display on what's on offer. (Unfortunate Architect, Constant Room Templates, I Ching, Wrong Way, One-Room)

Otherwise, check out highly rated and highly difficult holds

hmmm...Lynchpin Larry... that's catchy.

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[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 06-13-2007 09:08 AM]

bdwing
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Shouldn't "Ketchup and Puppies" be part of the canon? It still is something of a catchphrase in this forum. (And it's very short.)

Edit: Also, perhaps one of the "DRod art" holds should be canon.

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[Last edited by bdwing at 06-13-2007 12:26 PM]

zex20913
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Ketchup and puppies is only on Architecture. Not CaravelNet. If I get enough input for it, I'll submit it to the HA.

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Ezlo
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Yeah, I assumed that you were talking about a good list of holds to play at any difficulty level. Sorry if I misunderstood.

BeefontheBone
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Regarding MetDROD (MetDROiD? I forget), I'd like to say that I'd especially recommend them for the following groups of people:

Anyone who likes both DROD and Metroid Prime (duh!)

Anyone who wants some inspiration or encouragement regarding scripting and nonlinear architecture - they really force DROD into new shapes in a remarkable way.

Anyone who wants to see a particular architect's progression (as well as that allowed by engine enhancements) - I found that aspect very interesting.

Ezlo's list above looks to me to be a very good list for someone new to DROD who wants to get a good feel for the game with a steady increase in difficulty; I sure wish I'd played many of them in that order
It'd be worth adding, I'd say, that playing the main official holds (and probably a couple of story Selections) in some semblance of the order of release, particularly finishing JtRH before TCB, will improve many aspects of the story if that's high on your interest list, although it's far from essential and certainly shouldn't put you off leaving something where the challenge has started to outweigh your enjoyment to come back to later.

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Dex Stewart
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Ezlo wrote:
Last, but not least, the hardest recommended holds around. Try these at your own risk! "Beethro's Teacher" by Doom, "Bavato's Dungeon" by agaricus5, "Lone Soldier" by larrymurk, "The Fool's Errand" by Ricky, and "Figure or Ground" by Jacob.

Now, why do you think The Fool's Errand is hard? Of course there's that minor detail, but that's not extremely hard to figure out and after that most of the hold is trivial.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-14-2007 10:25 PM]

mrimer
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Dex Stewart wrote:

Ezlo wrote:
Last, but not least, the hardest recommended holds around. Try these at your own risk! "Beethro's Teacher" by Doom, "Bavato's Dungeon" by agaricus5, "Lone Soldier" by larrymurk, "The Fool's Errand" by Ricky, and "Figure or Ground" by Jacob.

Now, why do you think The Fool's Errand is hard? Of course there's that minor detail, but that's not extremely hard to figure out and after that most of the hold is trivial.

Yikes. It was a long time ago when I played Fool's Errand, but I don't remember the rooms becoming trivial at all. Maybe players have just gotten a lot better since then...dunno...

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[Last edited by mrimer at 06-14-2007 10:26 PM]

Ezlo
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Yeah, I still can't complete half the rooms, so I figured it was hard. Maybe it's time to try again?

Rabscuttle
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Everything is easier with undo.

Blondbeard
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The Fools Errand feels quite easy nowdays. But the trick is still brilliant.

I would certanly recomand Chaco's hold to someone slightly new to DROD. Not very difficult, but fun. Actually the second hold I played was A Quiet Place (in the AE engine), and I absolutely loved it, but from a nice learning curve perspective that might be a bad choice.

Lendy's Dungeon is very good as well, and Phis's Dungeon has many really good rooms. I would also like to point out that I don't find it that essential to play through Bavato's Dungeon and Claythro Tower. It's like Donaldson. Not everyone likes them

And finally: I know some of you will think I'm totally biassed, but I really like my brothers holds (Tar Gate Stronghold and The Underground Civilisation).


Edit: I have only been pointing out holds I miss in the lists above. I absolutely love most of what Doom, Jacob and Larrymurk has produced.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 06-15-2007 09:44 AM]

ClaytonW
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Just want to inject one brief little bit here:

I recently downloaded and played through Claythro Tower (having deleted my original - and editing rights - long ago).

And even though I'm the author, I no longer recommend the hold at all. Frankly, I'm embarassed by it, four years later. Not to say its all bad (I tallied 18 worthwhile rooms), but I just think my level design and writing skills have improved a great deal since then.

As far as valid recommendations, I really haven't played more than a handful of user-made holds at all. Of the ones I have played, I remember enjoying Smallsome Swicks by Erik, and The Choice by Neil... even though he's an evil architect.

Hope that's helpful in some way.

Tim
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ClaytonW wrote:
I recently downloaded and played through Claythro Tower (having deleted my original - and editing rights - long ago).
[...]
I no longer recommend the hold at all.

Perhaps a stupid suggestion, but I would definitely suggest to play Fireside (on the Architecture board, I know). Perhaps not for the puzzles (although I don't think they are that bad), but definitely for the commentary.

It's also anyone edit.

-- Tim

Disclaimer: I've played this one a very long time ago.

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NiroZ
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ClaytonW wrote:
And even though I'm the author, I no longer recommend the hold at all. Frankly, I'm embarassed by it, four years later. Not to say its all bad (I tallied 18 worthwhile rooms), but I just think my level design and writing skills have improved a great deal since then.

Prove it
(and TCB doesn't count)

ClaytonW
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NiroZ wrote:

ClaytonW wrote:
And even though I'm the author, I no longer recommend the hold at all. Frankly, I'm embarassed by it, four years later. Not to say its all bad (I tallied 18 worthwhile rooms), but I just think my level design and writing skills have improved a great deal since then.

Prove it
(and TCB doesn't count)

I've written up some loose story about who Claythro actually is, and why he has a tower. Also, I do seem to have a mysterious hold in my TCB named CT2:TC. It's only got about 9 rooms in it so far, and progress on it is terribly slow... but we'll see what takes shape.

Let's not hijack this thread any longer. If someone wants to discuss Claythro Tower, (or this strange CT2:TC hold), feel free to start a new thread. Though, I'm not sure what more I can say about it since it is so early in construction.

Jacob
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Will probably post back soon with my opinion on the holds canon, but surprised no-one's mentioned Neil's Treasure Hunt

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Dex Stewart
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And I', surprised nobody noticed Fibbit's Flourish, Odyssey and The Lost Temple. All three have excellent writing in them(well, Odyssey doesn't have a lot, but it's still good).

mtuan
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With so many new holds added, I bump this thread for more valuable opinions from you guys.

Nuntar
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Jacob's Beginners' Guide to DROD is more up-to-date and covers similar ground, though it doesn't have a full list organised by suggested playing order.

Regarding changes to Ezlo's list, the most significant event since then is of course the release of GatEB. I would say this changes the suggested order as follows (additions in bold):

Complete the KDD/JTRH/GatEB demo. All three of them, you might as well.
(TCB demo is not recommended, because then you get the story out of order, and now that we have GatEB, new players have no reason to install the TCB demo. Also, wandering around The City may be off-putting for new players if they haven't already got invested in the DROD story through the other official holds.)

Complete up to around level 5 of official hold of choice, preferably GatEB (which doesn't have numbered levels, but the equivalent would be reaching Smuggler's Maze).

Complete "Easy or Hard" by larrymurk
Complete "Odd Jobs Novice" by larrymurk
Compete "Smitemastery 101" by Jacob if you wish to spend the money.

(Note: these holds, while easy, use some elements you won't have met yet, so new players may well prefer to pass over them for now and be introduced to the elements in the intended way, through the official holds.)

Get up to level 15 of official hold of choice or Englos Keep in GatEB

While accomplishing last task try these appropriate holds to get stuck on...

Dan's Dungeon should now be added here. I can't recommend it highly enough. It is the only beginners' hold that introduces all the game elements with levels focused on each, and not with scrolls telling you just the basics, but with puzzle rooms so the player gets a real sense of how the elements work and how to handle them.

(We'll need a new similar hold for the new elements once TSS comes out... I would like to have a go at making one, and I'm sure others will too.)

Beethro and the Cake is a recent high-quality beginners' hold that can be added to the list at this stage.

Conquer GatEB, then start work on JtRH.

Most of the holds listed in "Which holds should I play?" in Jacob's topic belong to this stage.

After completing JtRH, start playing TCB. Not just for story reasons. It is the best introduction to working with the 3.0 game elements at a more advanced level than Dan's Dungeon, and necessary preparation for Advanced Concepts and other high-level holds.

Master official hold of choice (doesn't matter which; mastering GatEB or JtRH are about equally difficult).

Now, as Ezlo said, the fun stuff opens up In addition to those listed already, I would recommend:

* Advanced Concepts and Advanced Concepts 2
* Flood Warning
* Calamarain's Witherwood trilogy (I'm working my way through these at the moment. Some frustrating rooms, but mostly very well-designed and fun.)

Any others? Hope some more experienced players will chime in

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 10-15-2013 03:50 PM]