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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : General : Going with the flow here. (Yes, folks, it's another pre-announcement!)
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Chaco
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icon Going with the flow here. (+1)  
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11-08-2006 at 12:05 PM
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Rabscuttle
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Loony Labyrinth has been out for a while.
:P


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11-08-2006 at 12:23 PM
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NiroZ
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How soon is soon?

In other words, why are you posting this on the General Board?

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11-09-2006 at 01:32 AM
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Chaco
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I posted this on the General board because it seems to be the primary location for pre-announcements to be located.

As for time, I'm not making any promises because obstacles are a real pain to make. And this time I'm actually aiming to make bushes and skull piles instead of poorly-made disc piles and crates.

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11-09-2006 at 02:11 AM
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NiroZ
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quote:
Chaco wrote:
I posted this on the General board because it seems to be the primary location for pre-announcements to be located.


Fair enough, but I just can't see the point of posting a pre announcement when the hold might no be out for another 1-2 months.

Like if someone pre announced Duke Nukem forever back in 1998, starting the hype machine too early isn't a good thing.

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11-09-2006 at 02:18 AM
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Chaco
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I see your point; however the main point of this was to show that after doing a JtRH style mod I was not satisfied with its quality and am still attempting to improve my skills.

And that bottomless pits have been invented. :)

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11-09-2006 at 02:20 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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You should make pre-announcements in their respective boards.

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[Last edited by Jeff_Ray... at 11-09-2006 09:20 PM]
11-09-2006 at 09:20 PM
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Syntax
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quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
You should make pre-announcements in their respective boards.

I believe you're referring to agaricus5's statement that he didn't like to see pre-announcements on the General board. Chaco may or may not have read this however, so I think everyone is being a bit quick to jump to their guns. Tradition has always been to post pre-announcements here, and that is what Chaco has done.

If posting pre-announcements in General is no longer tolerated, I believe an official statement to this effect should be made.

I find them mildly amusing and personally don't have a problem with them being posted anywhere. As I said, it's become somewhat of a tradition, and as a Brit, I struggle without keeping these sorts of bizarre customs :)

Apologies if it wasn't agaricus5 who stated the fact I'm basing my assumption on but I have read that statement somewhere recently and it was from someone important...
11-09-2006 at 09:28 PM
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agaricus5
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quote:
Syntax wrote:
quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:
You should make pre-announcements in their respective boards.

I believe you're referring to agaricus5's statement that he didn't like to see pre-announcements on the General board.

Yup; that was my comment.

Edit: You can find it here.

quote:
Chaco may or may not have read this however, so I think everyone is being a bit quick to jump to their guns. Tradition has always been to post pre-announcements here, and that is what Chaco has done.

If posting pre-announcements in General is no longer tolerated, I believe an official statement to this effect should be made.

I find them mildly amusing and personally don't have a problem with them being posted anywhere. As I said, it's become somewhat of a tradition, and as a Brit, I struggle without keeping these sorts of bizarre customs :)

Hmm...

I disagree with you; I don't recall this pre-announcement thing as ever being a tradition. The earliest preannouncement of the last few months that I can find was on October 10, 2006, here, and I am pretty sure that preannouncements in 2005 and before were very rare, if not completely absent. What appears to be happening is that now the precedent's been set, people who want to grab the attention of the entire community are also jumping on the bandwagon and taking advantage of the General board for this usage.

There is no post stating that this is disallowed, or even frowned upon, but I personally dislike it because it isn't really necessary; we already have boards for the things being announced, so I don't see why we need to have them on the General board. To me, it suggests that people are considering their latest creations (or works about to be completed) as being in some way worth getting more publicity than anything else on the boards that we normally use for them. Also, why do things need preannouncing? Isn't the finished product enough?

Being proud of something and wanting to share it with the rest of us is perfectly fine; it's just that I find the recent preannouncements more like simply showing off than sharing. Of course, if someone had some general DROD thing that they want to share with us, but it's not a hold, a mod or something else related to the game directly, then that would be perfectly fine.

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 11-09-2006 10:15 PM]
11-09-2006 at 10:09 PM
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agaricus5
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Okay, sorry for the double post, but here is a slight addendum.

I did a quick search, and I also found these two older posts:

This one from late November 2005, and this one from April 2006.

I understand why Larry (who was the poster of the announcements) wants to publicise his holds, but I think it's now going a little too far.

I suppose you could look at it this way: what if I wanted to release Golbar's Caves now? Would you appreciate it if I started to boast about it here and encourage you to download it, instead of just uploading it to the Holds board and let it be discovered? In fact, I could also ask if you would mind me showing off my things in general at regular intervals if I felt so inclined.

On a similar vein, what if a more extreme thing happened, such as the next 10 released holds all being preannounced here in the space of a month? Would you appreciate that?

I personally don't like showing off to people a great deal; maybe I'll publicise something one or two times, but not overtly, and if people want to look at my things, then it's more up to the thing's quality to publicise itself. Also, I'm not a fan of respect inequality where it shouldn't be applicable (this was what was indirectly causing some recent problems, if I recall correctly). If the community were to treat two otherwise similar announcements (in terms of the object and post's quality) in completely different ways simply because of who the poster was, then I think encouraging that via usage of the General board is not a good idea either.

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11-09-2006 at 10:36 PM
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icon Re: Going with the flow here. (0)  
Actually, this was the first preannouncement (December 2005).
It was later jokingly referenced in this thread.

I later preannounced a hold here (mainly as a reference to the original preannouncement) and Lost Temple, Jeff_Ray's compilation, then this were preannounced.

(Although I was the first to preannounce a hold, so I contributed something. Yay.)

(Fun fact: There are three four sets of parentheses in this post)

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[Last edited by Pinnacle at 11-09-2006 10:44 PM]
11-09-2006 at 10:42 PM
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Jeff_Ray...
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I agree. This also eats up space for no reason, but we should make a topic about Pre-announcement thoughts, and why we should now, why we should... etc.

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11-09-2006 at 10:43 PM
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agaricus5
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quote:
Pinnacle wrote:
Actually, this was the first preannouncement (December 2005).
It was later jokingly referenced in this thread.

Okay, I concede. What I meant to say was project preannouncements. :)

quote:
I later preannounced a hold here (mainly as a reference to the last one) and Lost Temple, Jeff_Ray's compilation, then this were preannounced.

(Although I was the first to preannounce a hold, so I contributed something. Yay.)

(Fun fact: There are three four sets of parentheses in this post)

Ah, I missed that one (that occurred when I was absent, which is why I don't remember it).

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11-09-2006 at 10:45 PM
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Syntax
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Yeah... Wasn't sure how long pre-announcements had been running for, but I'd also seen it as one of the quirks/long-running-jokes of the forum. I certainly remember several, and they were always received with tongue in cheek.

I agree that not all things should be pre-announced but generally, pre-announcements seem to be with regards to holds which have had a lot of work put in. Sort of like a major Hollywood film trailer...

What got to me, I think, was that your mention of annoyance at pre-announcements seemed to majorly influence people's opinions with regards to pre-announcements as shown by the the top of this thread. In reality, no-one has actually ever complained about them before (AFAIK) and I felt Chaco was made a scape-goat.

Anyways... all this is getting way to serious. I personally love hold pre-announcements because it gives me time to make up excuses for missing work for a few days :)

Maybe only SS-level architects can pre-announce. It's certainly nice to get the rumour mill grinding, and knowing what's in the pipeline. TCB style...
11-09-2006 at 11:13 PM
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NiroZ
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I personally don't mind preannoucments, but as long as they will be done soon after that.

Saying that it will be done 'soon' just annoys me

and I think I have asked Jeff_Ray... to do this as well.

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11-10-2006 at 01:18 AM
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coppro
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quote:
NiroZ wrote:
I personally don't mind preannoucments, but as long as they will be done soon after that.

Saying that it will be done 'soon' just annoys me

and I think I have asked Jeff_Ray... to do this as well.
:shifty

[Last edited by coppro at 11-10-2006 01:21 AM]
11-10-2006 at 01:20 AM
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I agree with NiroZ - pre-announcing a hold 3-4 days or so before it's out is fine, and can generate interest and excitement. Pre-announcing a hold when it isn't going to be out in the immediate future is annoying and pointless.

Note also that with the new hold upload system, you don't control the exact timing of when your hold becomes public (unless you post it to architecture). So, with the new system, I guess that I'd suggest pre-announcing, if you must do it, at the same time you send your hold to be reviewed for publication on holds. Not sooner.

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11-10-2006 at 01:25 AM
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I intend to preannounce a hold two weeks after it's actually out. This is possibly not preannouncing, you say? Not the way I intend to write it.

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11-10-2006 at 02:32 AM
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quote:
Mattcrampy wrote:
I intend to preannounce a hold two weeks after it's actually out. This is possibly not preannouncing, you say? Not the way I intend to write it.



'fraid you just pre-announced, buddy.

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11-10-2006 at 03:59 AM
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If I wasn't so lazy, I would make cheap direct-to-dvd rip-offs of preannounced holds and release them before the original.

Then berate the "original" posters for stealing my ideas.


[Last edited by Rabscuttle at 11-10-2006 04:14 AM]
11-10-2006 at 04:13 AM
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I'm not fond of pre-announcing myself, but it's not breaking any forum "rules" as far as I am concerned--the General forum is for general DROD posts and this certainly qualifies. Just so no one thinks that we're going to start enforcing anything in this regard.

Game on,

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11-10-2006 at 05:07 AM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Going with the flow here. (+1)  
But by the very nature of the boards, isn't any pre-announcement a post announcement?
11-10-2006 at 09:59 AM
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bandit1200
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Umm, aren't the forums supposed to be fun? I suspect Chaco's post was intended to be a fun announcement. Besides being a pre-announcement, I mean.

'You shouldn't do that' should kept as the title of a Hawkwind track.

(I know, I know! No one actually said, 'You shouldn't do that.' I just thought I'd use this post as a vehicle to demonstrate my less than considerable knowledge of 70's spacerock.)

(Wassamatter? You think I have better things to do all day?)

np: Hawkwind - [In Search Of Space - 1971] - #01 - You Shouldn't Do That (15:41) really. it was the voices in it that made me make the post

11-10-2006 at 11:42 AM
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quote:
coppro wrote:
:shifty

Squishy Pink Things!

Well, I'm feeling kind of bad that I posted a preannouncement and its not due for a few months. :( But what's there is there, and it'll stay. I personally am not annoyed by preannouncements, it gives something for you to look forward to.

Keep posting,

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11-10-2006 at 12:36 PM
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bandit1200 wrote:
Umm, aren't the forums supposed to be fun? I suspect Chaco's post was intended to be a fun announcement. Besides being a pre-announcement, I mean.

'You shouldn't do that' should kept as the title of a Hawkwind track.



The point is, I think, that doing things that annoy other people doesn't make the forum more fun. At least not for everyone.

But this isn't, and shouldn't be, about handing out blame for things done in the past. Chaco posted a pre-announcement, obviously with good intentions. He had the misfortune of also being the point in the ever-growing tide of pre-announcements where some people in the forums have had enough of them. Some things that are fine, or even amusing, in small amounts, just become very tiring very soon. That's not Chaco's fault; he did nothing wrong. He couldn't have anticipated this effect.

But the reason some of us are making our annoyance clear is so that other people know about it, and be able to take it into consideration when they consider making pre-announcements of their own. People who get annoyed by stuff other people do shouldn't just sit quietly and pretend it doesn't bother them. That'll breed resentment and dissatisfaction and kill the community a lot faster than the opposite.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 11-10-2006 02:14 PM]
11-10-2006 at 02:13 PM
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Chaco
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Hmm, wasn't quite expecting this many replies:

My viewpoint is this: Bandit has this right in that I intended people to go "Hey that looks neat! I can already imagine what a few levels would look like with that style. Like, Jacob's Vertigo level in Labyrinthitis can now be restored to being suspended above a bottomless pit instead of a very deep pit!"

However, I now realise that I may have offended a few people by pre-announcing something when that something isn't going to be done for at least a week, maybe longer. In the future, I will keep this in mind whenever I make any new projects and possibly pre-announce them in a different forum, or not at all.

Also, I disagree with Agaricus' comment because this isn't a hold; it's a style. Therefore it doesn't really belong in Architecture (though I suppose one could argue it belongs in Development then)

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11-10-2006 at 03:58 PM
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Well, I guess no one should do anything for fear of offending a couple of people. It seems to be the way the whole world these days.

What amazes me is that members of this forum, where intelligence seems to be higher than average - I don't include myself in that generalisation - should take offence, or be annoyed, at something they read on a monitor. If something bothers you, move on. How easy can it be? High blood pressure isn't something you need. Believe me, I speak from experience.

As for those it annoys making their point, I am in total agreement. As long as those it doesn't bother can make their point too.

I wonder who the majority are, those annoyed or those not annoyed? I vote for having a vote about pre-announcements. :P
11-10-2006 at 04:54 PM
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quote:
Jeff_Ray... wrote:2. WHAT ARE NPS??? >_<

It stands for "now playing" and is used by a program called AMIP in conjunction with a few software MP3 players.

It's a way to let other music lovers know you don't have the same tastes as them. ;)

edit: i almost forgot...
np: Camel - [Moonmadness - 1976] #04/12 - Spirit Of The Water (02:07)

[Last edited by bandit1200 at 11-10-2006 05:04 PM]
11-10-2006 at 05:01 PM
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quote:
bandit1200 wrote:
Well, I guess no one should do anything for fear of offending a couple of people. It seems to be the way the whole world these days.

What amazes me is that members of this forum, where intelligence seems to be higher than average - I don't include myself in that generalisation - should take offence, or be annoyed, at something they read on a monitor. If something bothers you, move on. How easy can it be? High blood pressure isn't something you need. Believe me, I speak from experience.

As for those it annoys making their point, I am in total agreement. As long as those it doesn't bother can make their point too.

I wonder who the majority are, those annoyed or those not annoyed? I vote for having a vote about pre-announcements. :P

In my defence, I posted my posts last night, whilst revising for a 2 hour test-type thing involving looking at prosections of parts of the body and identifying what we're looking at (the test had 160 single-answer questions, and possibly only covered about 30-50% of the material we've learned so far). So, I was quite tired and a bit stressed, which kind of affected what I was actually meaning to say. I also kind of get the impression that negative replies towards my posts are suggesting I am in some way being selfish intentionally towards people to reduce their "fun" or "publicity" for no reason. So, I just want to state that this, if it really is what anyone is thinking, isn't the case at all (and in case that people are not entirely convinced I am in control of my blood pressure, I'd just like to say that I am supposed to know about hypertension :)).

What my point was was that the whole preannouncements thing wasn't necessarily annoying (that was too strong a word to use in this context), but kind of not as appropriate for certain kinds of projects as maybe some of the other boards we have. Now, I'm not saying I'm totally against preannouncements, but I do think we need to consider if we want to turn the General board into an advertisement board as well as a general discussion board. I don't want to see this happen particularly, but if people do want it, I'm not going to complain; I just want to state my opinion on the matter now, since it hasn't really come up before.

The other thing I was also trying to say was that I think the preannouncements thing, if it is generally encouraged or allowed, should be open to all people to use, regardless of Forum status or project completion. Otherwise, if we start "selecting" people either through a criterion (e.g. having a hold pre-released already) or through some kind of stigmatism (e.g. unreasonable downmodding, negative feedback or ignoring of some preannouncements compared to others), we risk setting up a kind of elitism, since the General board is free to read, but under this system, restricted in posting. Also, posting a thread is simply beginning a discussion, whereas posting a preannouncement implies that you have something that people ought to know about in advance (otherwise there is no point in posting it, right?), so the two things are not the same.

Of course, I'm not saying that we as a forum community are unintelligent, intentionally hurtful or in some other way malicious towards towards each other for personal gain. It's just that I think we've got to be careful with the way we handle this kind of social situation, since it is volatile, affects most of us (even if some people try to be indifferent to it) and is reasonably vulnerable to personality clashing or bias. Otherwise, it could lead to certain consequences that might cause a rift in our community or damage our generally friendly and neutral atmosphere.

Edit: (I almost forgot to add this)

quote:
eytanz wrote:
But this isn't, and shouldn't be, about handing out blame for things done in the past. Chaco posted a pre-announcement, obviously with good intentions. He had the misfortune of also being the point in the ever-growing tide of pre-announcements where some people in the forums have had enough of them. Some things that are fine, or even amusing, in small amounts, just become very tiring very soon. That's not Chaco's fault; he did nothing wrong. He couldn't have anticipated this effect.

My original post was not directed at anyone personally. It just so happened (by unfortunate coincidence) that someone mentioned my comment in this thread, which sparked off the discussion.

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[Last edited by agaricus5 at 11-10-2006 05:45 PM]
11-10-2006 at 05:41 PM
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Wes, my post wasn't aimed at anyone specifically, let alone you, so there wasn't really any need for the essay, save it for your studies. You never know, I might need you in the future. :)

And believe me, after about 30 years of high BP, I can probably teach you a few things about it. It's like waiting for a :bomb to go off. Luckily, only the detonator went off last time.
11-10-2006 at 06:06 PM
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