Ezlo
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I've see and heard several references to a feature request called "The Flow." Apparently people really liked it and it had a chance of being in JTRH. What is this Flow? I can't find a thread the describes it!

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Schik
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Searching for Flow on the F.R. board brought this topic up:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=3647&page=0#36185


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Ezlo
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Yeah, but that doesn't really seem to help. It's smoothing out details, I would like to see the original post.

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eytanz
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Well, in the old DROD site there used to be an "unconfirmed new elements" page (I don't remember its real name). The flow came from there.

If you are interested in some historical rummaging, you can go to http://web.archive.org/web/20050124080149/http://drod.net/ , click on "upcoming" in the sidebar, and see for yourself. But you should keep this in mind as well.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 06-28-2006 04:10 PM]

Ezlo
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Oh! Okay, thanks. That would be neat.

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Pinnacle
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Any chance of it being in TCB?
(as if anyone would tell me)

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zex20913
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There's always a chance. Nothing is 0 probability until it's history.

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AlefBet
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Pinnacle wrote:
Any chance of it being in TCB?
(as if anyone would tell me)

There's a Shroedinger's Cat chance, of course. Do you really want someone to tell you and be responsible for killing the Flow?

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Jatopian
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AlefBet wrote:

Pinnacle wrote:
Any chance of it being in TCB?
(as if anyone would tell me)

There's a Shroedinger's Cat chance, of course. Do you really want someone to tell you and be responsible for killing the Flow?

Yes; I don't like it.

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stigant
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Jatopian wrote:

AlefBet wrote:

Pinnacle wrote:
Any chance of it being in TCB?
(as if anyone would tell me)

There's a Shroedinger's Cat chance, of course. Do you really want someone to tell you and be responsible for killing the Flow?

Yes; I don't like it.

ahh, but they could also tell you that its not in TCB thereby ensuring that it will be.

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mrimer
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It's

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AlefBet
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The Flow is both in and not in TCB in superposition.

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Tim
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AlefBet wrote:
The Flow is both in and not in TCB in superposition.

Hey! I thought this was a family-friendly forum! I don't understand the wiki link one bit.

Can someone please explain in a bit for stupid people like me what it means...
(I understand there are a lot of people here that knows a lot about quantum mechanics?)

Is it something like: "I can see that it's in there, but I can't see how fast it goes?"
Or is that something else?

-- Tim

PS. Seriously, can anyone help me for some simple introduction on quantum mechanics? Or is it something that cannot be explain easily?

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Syntax
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Well, quantum mechanics simply doesn't/does exist...

Briareos
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Syntax wrote:
Well, quantum mechanics simply doesn't/does exist...

Gah. "The Flow" needs a quantum plumber anyway - a mechanic doesn't really help...

np: Dabrye & Invincible & Finale - Viewer Discretion (Two/Three)

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Pinnacle
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mrimer wrote:
It's

"It's" is a contraction of "It Is."
I think Mike just leaked another spoiler...

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AlefBet
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Tim wrote:
Can someone please explain in a bit for stupid people like me what it means...
(I understand there are a lot of people here that knows a lot about quantum mechanics?)

In quantum mechanics, a particle can be in more than one state at the same time. Quantum computers use this property to carry out calculations on many states at once, thus being able to sort of look "everywhere" for the answer. The catch is that when you measure it to find out what its states are, it picks one of the states it's in (probabilistically) and stays there.

The application here is that the TCB code both contains the Flow and doesn't contain the Flow right now. You should see Beethro fighting hordes of monsters not knowing if at any moment a quantum measurement happens and he both dies by the Flow and by the hand of all the monsters the Flow was supposed to kill and wasn't there to. It's actually kind of funny to watch his apprehension, in a cruel sort of way.

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Niccus
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But how do we know when and how the wavefunction collapses? I think lack of information transcends superposition...

On the other hand, The Flow might just be this "Mothingness" oft referred. When it floweth over, god help us.

spudsfan
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Pinnacle wrote:

mrimer wrote:
It's

"It's" is a contraction of "It Is."
I think Mike just leaked another spoiler...

That, or a random Monty Python reference. Of course, "It's not included", "It's never going to happen", "It's completely unworkable" and "It's time for lunch, so I'll comment later" are all possible as well.

coppro
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spudsfan wrote:

Pinnacle wrote:

mrimer wrote:
It's

"It's" is a contraction of "It Is."
I think Mike just leaked another spoiler...

That, or a random Monty Python reference. Of course, "It's not included", "It's never going to happen", "It's completely unworkable" and "It's time for lunch, so I'll comment later" are all possible as well.

Is this an argument, I ask you?

Chaco
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coppro wrote:
Is this an argument, I ask you?

No it isn't!

(I saw that episode too)

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AlefBet wrote:

Tim wrote:
Can someone please explain in a bit for stupid people like me what it means...
(I understand there are a lot of people here that knows a lot about quantum mechanics?)

In quantum mechanics, a particle can be in more than one state at the same time.

To be more specific (and more general so as not to focus on quantum computing): in a lot of quantum mechanics, the state of a system is not exact. There is a probability space that dictates, for example, the position of a particle. Generally there are two values that are intertwined such that if you theoretically know one with absolute certainty, then the other one has an infinite number of possibilities. For example, the uncertainties in the position and momentum of a particle are inter-related, as are the energy and time of that particle.

Because of this limitation on the theoretical knowledge of, say, a particle, you don't know where it is is going to be until you measure it. At that point you fix its value; until then, it could have been in either of two positions (in a simple situation). This is where the whole famous Schrodinger's Cat gedanken experiment comes into consideration...you don't know if the cat is alive or dead until you open up the box, in which case it could even be said that the act of opening up the box kills or doesn't kill the cat.

Some famous scientist (probably Feynman) once said that anyone who says that they fully understand quantum mechanics is either lying or insane, so don't feel bad if you don't really get it just yet.

Game on,

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Another theory in quantum mechanics is that it's possible to have negative information. That is, after you are told the information you actually know less than you did before. Thus it may be possible that the developers may have told us of the existence/non-existence of flow already, but we no longer have that information in our grasp. Heck, it may be possible that the developers no longer know...

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Syntax
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Here's my explanation:

Quantum physics does (not) exist.

Tim
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Oneiromancer wrote:

AlefBet wrote:
In quantum mechanics, a particle can be in more than one state at the same time.

To be more specific (and more general so as not to focus on quantum computing): in a lot of quantum mechanics, the state of a system is not exact. There is a probability space that dictates, for example, the position of a particle. Generally there are two values that are intertwined such that if you theoretically know one with absolute certainty, then the other one has an infinite number of possibilities. For example, the uncertainties in the position and momentum of a particle are inter-related, as are the energy and time of that particle.

Yep. Understand.

Because of this limitation on the theoretical knowledge of, say, a particle, you don't know where it is is going to be until you measure it. At that point you fix its value; until then, it could have been in either of two positions (in a simple situation). This is where the whole famous Schrodinger's Cat gedanken experiment comes into consideration...you don't know if the cat is alive or dead until you open up the box, in which case it could even be said that the act of opening up the box kills or doesn't kill the cat.

About the measurement with position and momentum, suppose I know I can only measure the position of a thing in time t. Suppose you can only measure the momentum of that same particle on the exact same time t. Does that mean that I can never tell you my answer?

I am reading the Schrödinger's cat experiment on Wiki, but that only says that personal observation leads to a fixed state. Now I want you to do this (thought) experiment: Same box, same you. But this time, I open the box, but you can't see or smell what's inside. Is the cat dead or not? It's been observed, so the cat can only have one of the states. But since you haven't saw it, it has both states?

Some famous scientist (probably Feynman) once said that anyone who says that they fully understand quantum mechanics is either lying or insane, so don't feel bad if you don't really get it just yet.

Let's say that I'm lying in my bed right now, so I must be able to fully understand it But I think I am capable to understand most of it, but I just need some (web) pointers, as I don't know where to look for good information. Any pointers would be nice.

-- Tim

mrimer
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Tim wrote:
I am reading the Schrödinger's cat experiment on Wiki, but that only says that personal observation leads to a fixed state. Now I want you to do this (thought) experiment: Same box, same you. But this time, I open the box, but you can't see or smell what's inside. Is the cat dead or not? It's been observed, so the cat can only have one of the states. But since you haven't saw it, it has both states?

Yes...objects exist only when observed (of course that means interacting with something...not just that a sentient being has to look at it with his eyes). Still, Einstein once half-joked that he felt uncomfortable with the notion that the moon doesn't exist until he looks at it.

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mrimer wrote:
Still, Einstein once half-joked that he felt uncomfortable with the notion that the moon doesn't exist until he looks at it.

I feel uncomforable with that notion too... because Einstein hasn't looked at the moon for over fifty years!

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Oneiromancer
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Well...not to denigrate Einstein, of course, but that's not really an issue. Remember, quantum mechanics is meant to describe very very small things. The moon is very much a macroscopic object. The position of each of the individual electrons in the moon might not be exactly known, but we don't need to know that--we just need to see the whole moon. In simple situations, the uncertainty in an electron's position might be a few angstroms. So there might be uncertainty of the position of the moon down to angstrom accuracy, but not at the scale that we can measure even with the best telescopes.

Game on,

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I recall a joke once (I think it was from User Friendly) that stated the only valid use of the oft-abused HTML blink tag is:

Schrodinger's Cat is <blink>NOT</blink> alive.

And this will be my only contribution to the topic.

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Niccus
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File: nearlyambiguousavatar.png (386 bytes)
Downloaded 109 times.
License: Public Domain

Who wants to wear this little picture?

I think most of you have seen the trick elsewhere in the forums...