CyberFish
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Personally, I think the Flow is one of the coolest suggested Dungeon elements yet. However, the details of it get really complicated really quickly. Several important questions are below, along with a few suggestions for their answers in italics.

The Unconfirmed New Dungeon Elements section describes it as breaking in a clockwise direction, which sounds simple enough, but becomes REALLY COMPLICATED when the Flow is an odd shape. What if you have a room full of Flow with a 5X5 square of doors in the middle, and you open the doors? How will the flow move in to fill the inner space?
The Flow moves by expanding from a single high-pressure point, which moves clockwise around the outside of the flow once a turn. If it hits an area where it can't expand (surrounded by walls), it skips on to the next edge square in the same turn. It will try to expand over pits, but sinks into them. So, flow surrounded by walls expands very quickly along any exit routes it has available due to the pressure build-up; but flow surrounded by pits expands very slowly as it keeps draining away.
If the Flow surrounds an area completely, the high-pressure square instantly jumps to the inside edge of the Flow. So, it would fill the inner area before the outer area. Put this down to the Flow's high surface tension or something.
If an area of Flow with no upwellings has a high-pressure point in it (due to the mass of Flow being cut in half), that point disappears and the Flow stops growing. If an area of Flow with upwellings has less high-pressure points than upwellings, it generates more high-pressure points.

If you have two areas of Flow in a room, presumably they'll expand seperately; but what if they merge at some point? Will the stuff then continue to expand, twice as quickly, growing from two different points?
Short answer - Yes. Long answer - There are as many high-pressure points in a mass of Flow as there are upwellings (flow generator squares). Each one behaves completely independantly, and if two sections of Flow merge, the system treats it as one mass.

Will it be possible to get rid of the Flow once it's expanded over an area?
Yes, but you'd need special methods - like the open door technique shown below. However, simply being next to a pit won't cause the Flow to drain out, it's surface tension is too high.

How will the Flow react if it moves over an open door, and you close the door later?
Personally, I'd like it to disappear when you close the door - this allows some neat possibilities for puzzles. You'd open a door to let the Flow move into the area beyond, close the door to separate the Flow, then open the door again to give you a very temporary safe corridor.

Will the Flow be able to expand out through a diagonal gap?
Yes, but it won't normally grow diagonally. If the high-pressure square can only expand in a diagonal direction, it will do. Otherwise it should expand laterally as normal.

[Edited by CyberFish on 09-02-2004 at 06:50 PM GMT]

[Edited by CyberFish on 09-02-2004 at 06:51 PM GMT]

wackhead_uk
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Isabejigl. That is hard to understand. Sounds like it's going to be another snakes thing, taking ages before you finally figure out how it works.

AlefBet
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wackhead_uk wrote:
Isabejigl. That is hard to understand. Sounds like it's going to be another snakes thing, taking ages before you finally figure out how it works.

I don't think so. I think for the most part these rules boil down to "the flow grows clockwise", with some provisions for when special events occur (like the flow fills a region completely or two flows join, etc.). Since the exceptions would tend to occur pretty rarely (maybe half a dozen times per room) and (more often than not) one at a time, I think people would be able to pick up on it pretty quickly. I also think the rules given for those circumstances are relatively intuitive.

The only thing I would change is I wouldn't have the flow grow diagonally. I think it's more of a special case and a bit inconsistent, and I think there are as many or more puzzle possibilities were it to not to grow diagonally as there are otherwise. I'm also on the fence about the door thing -- I could go either way.

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DiMono
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I think we sadistic architects could have a lot of fun messing with this Flow to torture our players, setting the room up such that many of these events happen all at once, on a fairly regular basis. Times like this, I'm glad I'm a Ninja.

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AlefBet
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Times like this, I'm glad I'm a Ninja.

Oh, good. Sleep! That's where I'm a Viking!

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trick
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Yarr.

Mattcrampy
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Ninja, pirate, viking.... dammit, you people have taken all the good identities!

Personally, I like the idea of doors coming up beating the Flow. It means you can delay the Flow, which provides more interesting puzzle possibilities.

Matt

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The_Red_Hawk
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Do you think it would inundate crumbly walls, therefore slowing the progress?


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DiMono
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I think it would be neat if the flow could push one square of crumbly wall in to any crumbly wall behind it, making it regular wall... but that's a game element changing the rooms, and we're avoiding that. Still, I think it would be neat.

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wackhead_uk
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Unless it was directly by a very long line of crumbly wall, then this would be useless as the flow would almost immediately block off any access to it. If it was by a long line of crumbly wall, then it would slowly spread out and block off the access, which could be used in effiency rooms very well

And I just realised I don't know something - can the flow be destroyed or not? I assume...not?

The_Red_Hawk
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Well, it's water. I guess Beethro could drink it, but probably not so much.

Do you think it would be good to have an on/off switch for the Flow, so it would stop growing? Without a switch, I guess it would grow normall.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Mattcrampy
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Well, the idea of the Flow is that it's a big gush of water. So having it shut off is against its spirit, and anyways, you can use a yellow door as a switch that only works once.

In any case, we have plenty of elements that can be defeated. The idea of the Flow is that it's an enemy that can't be beaten, the ultimate timer.

Matt



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wackhead_uk
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So it would be good in effiency rooms then!

Mattcrampy
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The flow room I've thought up is an efficiency room. We might have to work out some other ideas so that the Flow has some more use outside of "do this in this amount of time or else you die" rooms. I reckon I'm talking to the right people.

Matt

[Edited by mrimer on 09-11-2004 at 02:26 PM GMT]

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wackhead_uk
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What is this existing room? I've missed it.

Brickman
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Well, wasn't tar supposed to be the "ultimate efficiency room"? Space isn't usually an issue with DORD, and although the required number of moves always has to be divisible by 30, the tar can be used in tricky ways to LOOK like an efficiency room without actually being one. With the addition of flow, however, it would be used in ALL efficiency rooms, and thus you wouldn't be able to trick the player because they KNOW a tar mother room is not for efficiency. And going against a player's gut instinct is a very good way to make puzzles.

DiMono
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You could put the flow in a contained space with a door, and hitting the wrong orb opens up the door to permanently trap something behind it.

You could have the flow in a contained space along with a serpent, and have to get the serpent out before the flow locks it in and kills it.

You could have the flow next to some tar with a tar mother in the room, and have to beat back the flow to allow the tar to grow.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

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AlefBet
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DiMono wrote:
You could have the flow next to some tar with a tar mother in the room, and have to beat back the flow to allow the tar to grow.

Some cool ideas for making flow rooms that aren't inherently timed. However, how do you "beat back the flow?"

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Schik
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AlefBet wrote:
Some cool ideas for making flow rooms that aren't inherently timed. However, how do you "beat back the flow?"

Well, first you have to use the squeegee potion.



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DiMono
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Schik wrote:

AlefBet wrote:
Some cool ideas for making flow rooms that aren't inherently timed. However, how do you "beat back the flow?"

Well, first you have to use the squeegee potion.

Dude, I knew that was in.

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wackhead_uk
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Rememb er the april fools post about JtRH being released in beta? And Beethro would have different weapons? one could be a sponge...