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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : Contests : Mix and Match : Voting Topic (A multiple question poll)
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RankEntryAverageStandard Deviation
1How would you rate "Old Quarry"?81.1180339887499
2How would you rate "The Hanging Gardens"?7.8751.1659223816361
3How would you rate "Water Water Everywhere, Nor Any Bite to Eat"?7.6251.9324531042175
4How would you rate "Spooky Woods"?7.3752.2325713874365
4How would you rate "Unlikely Friends"?7.3751.7275343701357
6How would you rate "Crowding Conundrum"?72.1213203435596
7How would you rate "Delay Tactics"?5.8751.6909686573086
8How would you rate "It Snow Slur Prize to Me"?4.6252.4462982238476
8How would you rate "MIX AND MATCH GROUP 1"?4.6250.85695682505013
How would you rate "It Snow Slur Prize to Me"?
12345678910
Average Vote 4.625
Standard Deviation 2.4462982238476

How would you rate "Crowding Conundrum"?
12345678910
Average Vote 7
Standard Deviation 2.1213203435596

How would you rate "The Hanging Gardens"?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.875
Standard Deviation 1.1659223816361

How would you rate "Unlikely Friends"?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.375
Standard Deviation 1.7275343701357

How would you rate "Spooky Woods"?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.375
Standard Deviation 2.2325713874365

How would you rate "Delay Tactics"?
12345678910
Average Vote 5.875
Standard Deviation 1.6909686573086

How would you rate "Water Water Everywhere, Nor Any Bite to Eat"?
12345678910
Average Vote 7.625
Standard Deviation 1.9324531042175

How would you rate "MIX AND MATCH GROUP 1"?
12345678910
Average Vote 4.625
Standard Deviation 0.85695682505013

How would you rate "Old Quarry"?
12345678910
Average Vote 8
Standard Deviation 1.1180339887499
Total Votes 12 100%
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Nuntar
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icon Mix and Match : Voting Topic (+1)  
Time to vote! The compilation hold with the nine entries received will be attached to the next post. There was no entry for Group 6, but the hub level leaves a space open so I can make a level for the eventual Architecture topic.

All entries have been checked for whether they used all required elements from their group and did not use any forbidden elements. If you find any that I missed, that's on me and not on the architect, so please do not deduct marks for this.

This contest has no specific criteria for voting, so vote each entry out of 10 for fun as if you were rating a published hold. Architects are encouraged to vote 10 for themselves and to rank other entries fairly.

Voting will remain open for three weeks, until May 28.

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05-06-2018 at 10:08 PM
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Nuntar
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File: April Contest Hold.hold (54.6 KB)
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icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (0)  
And here are the entries! :thumbsup

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05-06-2018 at 10:09 PM
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Error in Water Water Everywhere:1W: the challenge completes whether or not you escape the room. It should complete when you hit the room border, otherwise you can just walk into the maze and hit the adder to earn the achievement.

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05-07-2018 at 01:48 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (0)  
If you look at the code, you'll note that it does verify that you've stepped out of the maze. The apparent mistake is that it checks that you've stepped outside before you enter the maze and so it can be tricked into thinking you've exited when you haven't.

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05-07-2018 at 03:08 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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There's an exit bug with the Unlikely Friends entry. The exit at 3N ends the hold instead of just ending the entry. The exit at the entrance seems to track that you've beaten the entry and sends you to the hub conquer token once the entry is beaten. The result of this is that it's impossible to clear 3N in the current entry, but since that room is marked as unrequired the contest hold is still beatable.

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05-08-2018 at 03:26 PM
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mauvebutterfly
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File: Mix and Match Compilation - mauve.demo (49.4 KB)
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icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (+4)  
Mix and Match Compilation:

This was a really fun contest. Almost all of the entries used their assigned elements to great effect. The secret rooms were sometimes brutal, but Iím glad that I persevered. Overall final time for hold completion and mastery was just over 17 hours.

According to Word I have a 7000 word document here regarding my thoughts while playing through the hold. Itís partially a play-by-play of my thoughts while solving the rooms, partially a developer commentary for my own entry, and partially my thoughts and opinions on which rooms I liked and what I would have liked to see differently. It also includes my guesses for the architects, which is of course influenced slightly by CaravelChat, although I have no 100% certainties for any entries beyond my own.

Obviously all the comments will be hidden until voting is finished, but my demo pack is included for architects wanting to see how I beat their rooms right away. Great work, everybody! There is some real quality here, and I thoroughly enjoyed playing through your entries.


Water Water Everywhere, Nor any Bite to Eat:

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MIX AND MATCH GROUP 1

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Spooky Woods:

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The Hanging Gardens:

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Delay Tactics:

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Old Quarry:

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Unlikely Friends:

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It Snow Slur Prize to Me:

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Crowding Conundrum:

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[Last edited by mauvebutterfly at 05-28-2018 01:33 AM]
05-09-2018 at 04:20 PM
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Remind me: I'm the only one who doesn't rank her own hold a ten, yes? Because I ain't ranking my own hold a ten.

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05-11-2018 at 12:16 AM
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disoriented
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I suppose there are a couple of ways to look at this.

1) Vote for the rating you think each hold truly deserves

Or

2) Vote 10 automatically for your own entries, since everyone else is doing the same thing. That way itís at least even ground for everyone.

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34th Skywatcher
05-11-2018 at 12:29 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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The way I see it, it's probably best (or fairest) to not have people vote for their own holds. Everyone giving their own hold the same score as each other is effectively the same thing. Since the system doesn't stop people from voting for their own entries, just having everyone vote 10 on their own entry is the easiest way to cancel out those votes.

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05-11-2018 at 01:06 AM
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I don't think it's wrong to not vote 10 for your own entry if you really think you would be disappointed if you won. But remember that others may not see it in the same way you do, and your hold might be viewed as better than you think it is (people rarely have a correct view of how good their own work is). So rating your own hold a 10 is saying "I want to let everyone else decide if my hold is better than the others or not", while rating your hold less than a 10 is saying "even if others think my hold is the best, I think it's so bad I'd rather it not win". I haven't played all the entries, but I've heard nothing about a particularly bad entry in chat, so I'd say it's probably not bad enough to throw it under the bus.
05-11-2018 at 02:12 AM
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Even then it's not a very good system. The more critical you are in ranking, the better your score becomes because you're just averaging results. Voting your own hold a 10 and everybuggy else's a 1 is the best way to ensure you have a chance at winning. I don't think anybuggy here would do that, but it's still true that whoever is most critical of other architects' holds will have an edge over those of us who vote them higher on average.

The best way to fix this is to have a system where you rank the holds in order and you aren't permitted to rank your own. Then the calculation can be made to see how frequently hold X beats hold Y, and a true overall ranking can be determined. That's how a pony writing competition I'm frequently in does it, and it works really well.

It's located at http://writeoff.me/ where you can see how it works. I could ask the owner there if they could help set something like that up with us.

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05-11-2018 at 05:12 PM
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superluminal
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There's no (relative) difference between everyone voting 10 for their entry and everyone not voting for their entry. It just skews everyone's result a bit more negative than otherwise. First place will still win first place, and so on.

It works when everybody is consistent.

Besides, people rate entries according to different criteria. Some people judge how well the entry follows the rules. Others judge by how much they enjoyed the entry. A few might judge strategically so they have the best chance of winning. If you're looking for a pure "quality score" on your entry, you won't find it here, even if you didn't rate it yourself.

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spacelike
05-11-2018 at 06:11 PM
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navithmastero
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I think what Trickster is saying is that it becomes problematic if some people vote 10 for their own holds and some people don't. You're assuming that everyone votes 10. If you couldn't vote on your own hold then the difference is that you'd be certain that everyone didn't vote. If people vote differently on their own hold then it could skew results in favour of those who voted higher on their own hold (and also lower on other people's holds).

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05-12-2018 at 07:42 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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Well, if you know that everyone is expected to vote 10 on their own hold, and you still vote lower than that, you're pretty much deliberately lowering your chances of winning so I don't see how there's any problem there.
05-12-2018 at 03:22 PM
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If the rule is "you're required to vote 10 on your hold" then I don't think there's a problem with the honor system (though that isn't what I'm hearing).

As I said previously, however, that's not the larger problem. The larger problem is that people who vote more critically have a distinct edge. If one user votes 8 on average and another user votes 3 on average, the latter has a significant boost over the former, particularly if the votes are thin. It's basic math.

If you want to go on the honor system, the problem could almost be eliminated by saying, "you're required to vote 10 for your own entry, 9 for your favorite entry, 8 for your second-favorite entry, and so on". That would rank-order the entries and eliminate critical bias.

It doesn't eliminate all bias, however. That's why we use a system that compares how likely each entry is to beat each other entry rather than simply average the rankings.

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05-12-2018 at 09:38 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (+2)  
As I understand it, it used to be stated in the rules for each contest (before the general rules topic existed) that architects were "required" to vote 10 for their own holds. However, this was never enforced, and a few people in the past have explicitly mentioned that they weren't doing it, and there was no penalty. That's why the current general rules merely say that architects are "encouraged" to vote 10 for themselves.

Requiring one vote of 10, one of 9 and so forth would avoid some problems with the current system, but comes with its own problems: there are sometimes more than ten entries; and if several of the voters agree that (for instance) the front three are close together but the fourth is some way behind, why shouldn't that be reflected in the outcome?

In the end, there is no perfect voting system. I think the one we use works well enough for our purposes.

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05-12-2018 at 11:02 PM
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Dragon Fogel
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icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (0)  
A score also seems more useful as feedback to me.

If I'm just told I got second last, I don't know if people thought my entry was bad, or just okay in a field of better ones. On the other hand, if I get a final average score of 7.5, that suggests I did a decent job even if my entry wasn't as well-liked as some of the others. Not every voter posts their full thoughts, so it's useful to have that number alongside the reviews.
05-13-2018 at 04:05 AM
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Trickster
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quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Requiring one vote of 10, one of 9 and so forth would avoid some problems with the current system, but comes with its own problems: there are sometimes more than ten entries; and if several of the voters agree that (for instance) the front three are close together but the fourth is some way behind, why shouldn't that be reflected in the outcome?


It is reflected in the outcome if you're comparing the rankings probabilistically rather than averaging them (as I mentioned). You also end up with a score based on how different users ranked you relative to others.

I agree there's no 'perfect' system, but there are better ones, which is why I offered a different approach for comparison. The reason you use the current system is because it's convenient, not because it's good.

That's all I wanted to share. Carry on.

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05-13-2018 at 05:01 PM
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TFW somebuggy rates my favorite hold a 4, and another decent hold a 3





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05-14-2018 at 02:04 PM
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navithmastero
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It's almost as if people might have differing opinions! No way! :P

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05-16-2018 at 11:31 PM
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disoriented
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She just wanted an excuse to insert a cartoon reaction gif into the thread.

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34th Skywatcher
05-17-2018 at 12:16 AM
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Trickster
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quote:
disoriented wrote:
She just wanted an excuse to insert a cartoon reaction gif into the thread.
In this case I'm legitimately surprised. I'm curious what the logic is, and hope there are some detailed reviews after the deadline.

I'd actually like some detailed reviews now. I'm not sure I understand why that previous voter kept their thoughts a secret unless it would break anonymity.

I think I'll review the holds myself, including my own to retain anonymity.

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05-17-2018 at 12:17 PM
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Xindaris
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Aye, the reviews are usually put behind "hideuntil" tags until the voting is over to preserve both anonymity and to avoid any bias from reading other people's feedback (although I suppose both would still be up to the reader to decide about anyway if they weren't). The suspense of waiting to see reviews of your own entries is a wonderful part of contest voting times.

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05-17-2018 at 04:19 PM
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blorx1
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quote:
Trickster wrote:
In this case I'm legitimately surprised. I'm curious what the logic is, and hope there are some detailed reviews after the deadline.

I'd be shocked if you get that sort of review. The people who actually post reviews tend to be the ones that don't also git lots of weird negative scores.

In general I've kind of given up on understanding why good entries get unexpected low votes.

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05-17-2018 at 04:57 PM
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I haven't made a lot of progress on beating the holds, but I've voted based on how the rooms felt to me. Here are my thoughts, including a dummy review of my own hold(s).

It Snow Slur Prize to Me
Crowding Conundrum
Delay Tactics

All three of these were by the same author, as evidenced by the identical layouts (and often identical room elements). This isn't a good idea in a competition because it partially compromises anonymity. In this case it also felt repetitive, and the architect clearly tried to force things into position to make a room with one set of components work within a completely different set of restrictionsóto limited success. These were the largest holds out of all the entries. Ultimately, I'd prefer if the architect had focused on quality over quantity and simply cut some of the rooms that went too far, though the size of the holds was still an overall plus.

The rooms were all very challenging, but most of them felt overwrought, and I think this was in part due to the attempt to use the same room layout multiple times in a row. For example, what made for an elegant-seeming room in DT:TE felt more random-guess in CC:TE and torturous in ISSPtM:TE. Of the three holds, I think DT was the least overdone (and so the best of the three), and I suspect it was the first hold of the three the architect tried to design.

MIX AND MATCH GROUP 1
This was a silly war entry. It was easy to beat and most of the rooms seemed thrown together quickly. I think 1S1W was probably the best of the rooms, as it was a small challenge to get to the platform.

The Hanging Gardens
This was the second easiest entry next to MAMG1. The puzzles weren't too easy, but with a couple of exceptions they didn't offer anything new or unique. I think 1E and 1S were the most original of the rooms, though 1E was a little overly complicated. The hold was aesthetically pleasing, which added something compared to the other entries.

Unlikely Friends
Slayers with staves are a lot of fun. I don't know much about constructs yet so it's hard for me to judge this entry and the other one from that group (OQ below), but the rooms appeared to be a mixture of elegant and annoying. I would have preferred if there were fewer elements in each room: does every room really need a slayer? I don't even know what's going on with 3N1E. Like the triplets, this hold may have benefited from some trimming. Maybe the rooms are more fun than they seem, though. I had to judge this one based on size and how inventive the rooms appeared to be.

Spooky Woods
This was my favorite. It wasn't large, but the rooms were well thought-out, not over-designed, and I was able to get closer to a correct solution with each attempt (which is the way rooms should work). I haven't beaten any of the rooms yet, but I've enjoyed trying.

Water Water Everywhere, Nor Any Bite to Eat
TE here exemplifies the flaw of this hold: overwrought. 1W and 1N don't suffer from an overly complex design, but the rest of the rooms do (even though I think 1S is fun)óand I don't know enough about snakes yet to get 1W to work properly so I haven't made much progress here either.

Old Quarry
As with UF, I don't know much about constructs yet so it's hard to rate these rooms. They seem more focused on a specific sequence of actions Beethro has to take than the general mayhem of UF, especially 1E which feels like the best room to me (I haven't beaten any, but it's the one I liked the most conceptually). Despite the small size of the hold, I felt this was on par with UF.

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05-17-2018 at 09:39 PM
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Congratulations to everyone who entered! There was some really good stuff in here. The hold took me way longer to get through than I expected, and even working at it pretty diligently since voting opened, I didn't manage to get everything done. I played through as much as I could so my impressions would be as accurate as possible.

The last two times I played through and voted on a contest compilation like this, I regretted not recording an LP for them at the time. I decided not to make the same mistake with this one, and tried to capture my entire experience with the hold on video. First episode should have been published as soon as voting closed; further ones will go up daily around the same time until I run out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBk6-z6v3pDIcfG8xtLvy1f2fRl8SzugF

Here are my written impressions for everything:

MIX AND MATCH GROUP 1
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Water Water Everywhere, Nor any Bite to Eat
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Spooky Woods
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Hanging Gardens
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Delay Tactics
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Old Quarry
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Unlikely Friends
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It Snow Slur Prize To Me
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Crowding Conundrum
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05-28-2018 at 01:03 AM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (0)  
Here's my comments as well - no fancy forum formatting, but it contains my scores, some room comments, as well as my guesses as to who made which entry and which (required) rooms I thought were easiest/hardest.

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05-28-2018 at 01:05 AM
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Nuntar
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And we have a winner! :thumbsup

First place goes to Old Quarry by Dragon Fogel, who wins the usual 100 rank points and a pick from the Prize Pile.

Second place, and 50 rank points, go to The Hanging Gardens by Trickster.

Third place, and 25 rank points, go to Water Water Everywhere by blorx1.

blorx1 has also earned his second 8-timer prize. ThemsAllTook (Alex Diener) gains 10 rank points for this being his first contest entry.

And finally, we welcome back techant, our forum's most prolific contest entrant, after a long absence. As this was her 63rd contest (!) she will be eligible for an 8-timer prize next time. Mauvebutterfly has now entered seven contests and will also be eligible with his next contest entry.

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50th Skywatcher
05-28-2018 at 01:08 AM
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Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1102
Registered: 06-21-2014
IP: Logged
icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (0)  
For the record, I made a mistake in 1N of my entry, there was supposed to be a path to let the construct come to you when you stepped on the pressure plate. Luckily it was still solvable despite my error.

I have a fixed version, which basically allows for a slower but easier finish. The existing solution should still work and is probably more efficient.

I didn't expect to win; I guess I benefited from having one of the more approachable entries. Thanks for your votes, everyone!
05-28-2018 at 01:13 AM
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blorx1
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 906
Registered: 07-18-2009
IP: Logged
icon Re: Mix and Match : Voting Topic (0)  
I'd like to thank disoriented for testing my entry.

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If you need to think outside of the box, then you didn't build a good enough box.
05-28-2018 at 01:50 AM
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