Announcement: Remember: you are giving away your fantastic ideas for free, and somebody else might even make money from them (or appear to). That's just how the world works! If you're worried about it, maybe you shouldn't post your ideas here.


Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Let architect choose allowed undo moves?
Page 1 of 3
23
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
Vike91
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 229
Registered: 05-19-2007
IP: Logged
icon Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
I would like to see an option to change the allowed undo moves (the default is 1).
This option could be specific to each hold, and adjustable by architect in the editor.

This would be useful in the future difficult holds.

What do you think?

____________________________
The best way to predict the future is to create it.
06-11-2014 at 11:57 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1126
Registered: 06-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
To be honest, I don't particularly like this idea. It would result in bad architects making trivial hack&slash rooms "harder" by disabling undo. The purpose of UU, as far as I understand, is to promote the design of rooms that are challenging in terms of linchpins and strategy rather than a simple matter of entering your moves without slipping up and repeating long sections due to a minor misstep. This would subvert that purpose.

That said, UU seems to be a point of contention among a lot of players. I think that in a game that's entirely deterministic, has perfect information, and has no execution elements, limits on undo are out of place.

____________________________
Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
06-12-2014 at 12:13 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
No.


____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
06-12-2014 at 12:37 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
bwross
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 376
Registered: 04-17-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (-1)  
Pinnacle wrote:
To be honest, I don't particularly like this idea. It would result in bad architects making trivial hack&slash rooms "harder" by disabling undo.

Yeah, it's not going to happen because there's too much room for abuse. A better suggestion would be scripting/challenge support, in a way that's optional and not forced on the player. But that probably won't happen either, because people will complain that they're still forced because it exists even though it is optional play. And I can't fault them... because UU is optional, and I still think it's horrid.

The purpose of UU, as far as I understand, is to promote the design of rooms that are challenging in terms of linchpins and strategy rather than a simple matter of entering your moves without slipping up and repeating long sections due to a minor misstep. This would subvert that purpose.

Yes, that's exactly what I see it doing... narrowing the zone to a much thinner area that caters to people who want exactly that sort of puzzle. Unfortunately, some of us don't always want to be banging our heads looking for linchpins or working out a strategy for the dozen different things in a room that need to get done and just want to relax with rooms where what needs to be done is obvious, but the execution of it is the game. And UU just belittles that sort of play by encoding that moves have little weight into the game space. It says that the game no longer cares about that and it's linchpins from now on. And I only want to play those some of the time. I'd be much happier with an engine that could still support other puzzles with the same level of seriousness that linchpins and optimizers get.

That said, UU seems to be a point of contention among a lot of players. I think that in a game that's entirely deterministic, has perfect information, and has no execution elements, limits on undo are out of place.

I disagree. If the game were a proper automaton that might be more the case, but it's not, and that introduces large amounts of chaos into the mix making for some nice hack and slash possibilities, where playing the room again can very much end up going in a very different direction. And although limited undo is useful for protection against inadvertent physical slip ups like Fast Finger Freddies, once you cross a threshold that starts to reduce the mental component... and that's the game part. And UU does this completely to many of my favourite tactical rooms. It'd be nice to have something like the OP to protect them, to signal that this is a room that's based on having discipline and tactical skill, much like the the vision token could be used to distinguish rooms where things hidden under tar are intentional. But that idea has died, and so this will certainly die too.
06-12-2014 at 02:25 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
The engine supports whatever kind of play you want to have. If you don't like UU, set your undo level to 1. Or be super hardcore and set it to 0. But just because you like it one way, why should I be forced to play that way too?

I see the architect choosing my undo level as hardly different than them choosing my key layout. I can make a room harder to execute by really screwing up your keys, left is right, up is down, but that's not very fun (beyond the initial ha-ha it might get out of me).

Your first paragraph, I'm not sure I get it - are you suggesting allowing the architect to set undo limits only in challenges?

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
06-12-2014 at 02:34 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
Pinnacle
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1126
Registered: 06-10-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
Here's a potential middle ground. Have an emblem (a clock with a counterclockwise arrow around it or something) next to the hold on the hold select screen after it's been conquered (and on the Conquered Holds section of the CN profile). The color of this emblem would reflect the highest undo level used during the completion of this hold.

[Gold, Red and Black - 0 undo, checkpoints off, really just there for the masochists]
Red and Black - 0 undo
Red - 1x undo (conquered holds imported from a 1.x-4.x version of the engine have this)
Blue - 3x undo
Green - more than 3x undo, including unlimited.

Combine this with a recommended undo level against each hold, and that way players who want to use lower undo levels at least get something out of it.

____________________________
Once (adv.): Enough.
Twice (adv.): Once too often.
~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[Last edited by Pinnacle at 06-12-2014 02:37 AM]
06-12-2014 at 02:35 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jatopian
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1842
Registered: 07-31-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
Pinnacle wrote:
Here's a potential middle ground. Have an emblem (a clock with a counterclockwise arrow around it or something) next to the hold on the hold select screen after it's been conquered (and on the Conquered Holds section of the CN profile). The color of this emblem would reflect the highest undo level used during the completion of this hold.
It would be better if we did not do that, and thereby avoided stoking a pissing contest about who's more hardcore at a puzzle game.

____________________________
DROD has some really great music.
Make your pressure plates 3.0 style!
DROD architecture idea generator
06-12-2014 at 04:08 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Coscott
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 14
Registered: 02-16-2012
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
I really really hope that undo is unlimited by default. I will probably stick with whatever is default, because I will feel like it is more "official," and I will feel like I am cheating if I make it easier than default in any way, but I think unlimited undo is much better.
06-12-2014 at 06:46 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+2)  
Coscott wrote:
I really really hope that undo is unlimited by default. I will probably stick with whatever is default, because I will feel like it is more "official," and I will feel like I am cheating if I make it easier than default in any way, but I think unlimited undo is much better.
UU will not be the default setting. I personally don't feel the need to change default settings in order to help people feel comfortable customizing their setup. That's why we have customizable settings in the first place, after all. The default setting isn't "official." It's the value that we are assuming most people would use, and we're trying to streamline the setup process for the greatest number of players. Please feel free to solve puzzles however you enjoy best!

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 06-12-2014 07:38 AM]
06-12-2014 at 07:35 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
When beta testing, I've completed the whole TSS with unlimited undo and frankly? It had made me enjoy the game much more.

Again and again I see the same argument 'execution no longer is important' and I say it is. Not only it is still important, now if you screw up something you don't have to repeat the same sequence of 10 or 100 or 1,000 moves, you just hit the undo key one more time. I've played a number of more hack'n'slash rooms with UU and I have enjoyed them more than if I had no UU, because no longer I am subject to the whims of movement order which sometimes invalidates even the supposedly perfect plan.

I am saying this only as me and myself - there is too much whining around the UU. Suck it up, give it a try and if you don't like it, set it to 1, 0, 3, 5 or whatever. If you make a hold and want the players to disable UU, put this information in the hold.

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter
06-12-2014 at 10:13 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3741
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
I am with skell on this one.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text

06-12-2014 at 10:27 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Vike91
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 229
Registered: 05-19-2007
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+2)  
I'm really sorry for suggesting this :weep

____________________________
The best way to predict the future is to create it.
06-12-2014 at 10:29 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 789
Registered: 12-07-2008
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
I have to agree wholeheartedly with skell on this one. When confronted with a confounding room, I often recreate it in the editor just so I have the benefit of UU. That way, I can ponder each move and countermove individually.

Maybe someone thinks my process turns the puzzle into trial and error. Maybe I'm in the wrong here, but that's okay. I don't play for highscores. I play for my own fun. And that method has helped me through plenty of tough spots in the past. In-play UU would only streamline that process and make the game more fun for me. I'm just one customer among many, but that's how I roll.
skell wrote:
I am saying this only as me and myself - there is too much whining around the UU. Suck it up, give it a try and if you don't like it, set it to 1, 0, 3, 5 or whatever. If you make a hold and want the players to disable UU, put this information in the hold.
This is another good point. It might seem unprofessional at first, but asking the player to consider playing another way at the beginning of the hold isn't going to ruin the player's experience. With some cleverness, an architect could even use this request to his advantage, and enhance the hold experience. Sure, it would mean the architect couldn't enforce the play style. But like Schik said, forcing a different play style might have unfun results. And really, that's what we're all here to do -- have fun. Don't let someone else's preferences infringe on your play style. It's yours for a reason.
Vike91 wrote:
I'm really sorry for suggesting this :weep
Don't worry about it. The only reason these responses are so vehement is because this forum has had this conversation before, and it was equally vehement. You've opened up an old can of worms, nothing more. (Although arguing about in-play UU seems to be a moot point considering it's in the game and the game is in RC stage. And I couldn't imagine anyone choosing not to buy the game solely because it has in-play UU.)

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!
06-12-2014 at 10:52 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
Fun fact: Bad eVil hotel would be technically.. kind of.. promotable with UU in the game, whereas it very much wasn't with 0 checkpoints (Entrance and 1N are some hilariously fun rooms :P)

I was tempted to write something here, but it wouldn't add anything that wasn't said years ago. Instead I'll just say that I'm really glad TSS is fully checkpointed. Hopefully future usermade holds continue to pay as much attention to this, even if there's an alternative that reduces the need for them greatly.
06-12-2014 at 01:04 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
bwross wrote:
The purpose of UU, as far as I understand, is to promote the design of rooms that are challenging in terms of linchpins and strategy rather than a simple matter of entering your moves without slipping up and repeating long sections due to a minor misstep. This would subvert that purpose.

Yes, that's exactly what I see it doing... narrowing the zone to a much thinner area that caters to people who want exactly that sort of puzzle. Unfortunately, some of us don't always want to be banging our heads looking for linchpins or working out a strategy for the dozen different things in a room that need to get done and just want to relax with rooms where what needs to be done is obvious, but the execution of it is the game. And UU just belittles that sort of play by encoding that moves have little weight into the game space. It says that the game no longer cares about that and it's linchpins from now on. And I only want to play those some of the time. I'd be much happier with an engine that could still support other puzzles with the same level of seriousness that linchpins and optimizers get.
I see here that one expectation of UU is that it will promote linchpin room design. Another expectation is that players don't always *want* linchpin rooms. I've thought a fair amount about these two lines of thought. Concern about what type of rooms players will be handed to play by future architects is of course a valid one. However, I think the ramifications of providing UU are nowhere as extreme as either individual suggests, in either direction. My reasoning for this is as follows: anecdotally, I've observed that roughly 90% of room puzzle design is tested in the room editor, where UU is already available and always has been. So, providing UU outside of the editor won't alter the typical architecting experience or approach at all.

People who designed hack-n-slash rooms in the past will continue to create hack-n-slash rooms. People who (heh) didn't test their rooms at all before shoveling a hold out there still won't test them. And those who invested the time in actually playing through their hold outside of the editor will still do so, according to their style of play. I'm confident all these types of designers aren't going to disappear. Holds will still get voted on and rated according to players' experience with them. In fact, in addition to facilitating different play styles, as discussed above, UU outside of the editor should in theory improve the overall, holistic quality of usermade holds, as the architect will now have less of a psychological roadblock to actually *playing through* their entire hold outside of the editor before publishing it.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 06-12-2014 04:01 PM]
06-12-2014 at 04:00 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+3)  
I've played TSS with unlimited undo.

It doesn't make the hold trivial.

I..I assure you it does not make the hold trivial.
06-12-2014 at 09:28 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
Banjooie wrote:
I've played TSS with unlimited undo.

It doesn't make the hold trivial.

I..I assure you it does not make the hold trivial.

And I am sure that even after all that you still need MOAR, eh? ;)

____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter
06-12-2014 at 10:05 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
:blowup
06-13-2014 at 08:24 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
bwross
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 376
Registered: 04-17-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
I'll secret most of my comments here to keep the size down, because I get philosophical and stuff.

Schik wrote:
The engine supports whatever kind of play you want to have. If you don't like UU, set your undo level to 1. Or be super hardcore and set it to 0. But just because you like it one way, why should I be forced to play that way too?

Click here to view the secret text


Schick wrote:
Your first paragraph, I'm not sure I get it - are you suggesting allowing the architect to set undo limits only in challenges?

I was thinking more along the lines of detecting and reacting to options, not force setting them. Basically, something like the ability to detect that the player has done with single/no undo and give them some special recognition (ie complete KDD without undo to get the original ending). I suppose that setting them might be okay if it's allowed in the form of a dialogue at the start of the game that asks if you want to use the architect's recommended settings... that provides the information, and is more convenient than having to go to the settings.

skell wrote:
Again and again I see the same argument 'execution no longer is important' and I say it is. Not only it is still important, now if you screw up something you don't have to repeat the same sequence of 10 or 100 or 1,000 moves, you just hit the undo key one more time. I've played a number of more hack'n'slash rooms with UU and I have enjoyed them more than if I had no UU, because no longer I am subject to the whims of movement order which sometimes invalidates even the supposedly perfect plan.

Click here to view the secret text


Jatopian wrote:
It would be better if we did not do that, and thereby avoided stoking a pissing contest about who's more hardcore at a puzzle game.

Yeah, isn't that what the optimizing scoreboards are for? :)

Although, seriously, Pinnacle was talking about the hold select screen, so it's really only you sees that, and it might be interesting information to have available for just personal use.
Click here to view the secret text


mrimer wrote: My reasoning for this is as follows: anecdotally, I've observed that roughly 90% of room puzzle design is tested in the room editor, where UU is already available and always has been. So, providing UU outside of the editor won't alter the typical architecting experience or approach at all.

Click here to view the secret text


Banjooie wrote:
I've played TSS with unlimited undo.

It doesn't make the hold trivial.

Well, of course... TSS is a child of the environment where UU is available.
Click here to view the secret text

06-13-2014 at 08:41 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3734
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
I've walked a dog after reading your reply bwross and I've put into what you wrote a lot of thought.

Execution is somehow important, and yet you can just "hit the undo key one more time" if you screw up instead of losing something. So it's not really important, because there's no consequence to failing to execute.
In DROD without UU the punishment is wasting the player's time and reducing their enjoyment of the game, because I highly doubt there are many people out there who enjoy having to repeat the same sequence of keys multiple times (even more if, due to anger, the accidentally make a mistake in the repeat phase).
Now I agree, there is no inherently negative consequence for failing to execute except being forced to hit the undo key. The thing is, hitting undo does not magically make you solve the puzzle, you still need to either try all possible combinations until you come to the solution or think more. All in all it makes the game less frustrating (and thus more enjoyable) for players (me included) who are not as smart as some of the people here. There are players who are so good that their primary source of enjoyment is optimizing, but the vast majority just struggle to solve the puzzles and it's enough for them to enjoy the game very much.

And that's the point I wanted to stress - games are about having fun. Each person gets their kick from different things and that's okay. I respect the fact that you like the game as is and would prefer to be forced to play with single undo. But that's not even discussion about opinions, because opinions change - that's discussion about tastes and there is a latin saying de gustibus non est disputandum. Objectively speaking, UU has potential of reaching more players by relieving them from the frustration caused by needless repetition. And that's all I am willing to discuss whether UU is a good or a bad thing, because it's, more than anything, a clash of tastes.

Because I'm going to hear them again and again when I mention UU, and that's part of why I hate it, in that it shows a culture of "you can't complain because you can opt out with an option".
I understand your feelings, and I didn't mean to say it that you can't complain - the problem is that these discussions have been done over and over again, everyone knows there are people who like and people who don't like UU. But do you enjoy company of people who constantly complain about a given politician, how it all used to be better or other things like that? At some point you just stop meeting with people like that.
And UU for some reason ihas the power of making people angry, cynical and unbearable. We are a small community, yet right now concentrate on the differences and divide ourselves. For a person who loves this place it's infuriating. What I am saying is - you, or anyone else is free to complain about the current UU status, and everyone here is free to express their exhaustion with the topic - remember that the freedom of speech goes both ways.

I was thinking more along the lines of detecting and reacting to options, not force setting them. Basically, something like the ability to detect that the player has done with single/no undo and give them some special recognition (ie complete KDD without undo to get the original ending).
I personally don't like this idea, because I don't think one should be judged by the way they play the game. Much better is the second half of that paragraph:
I suppose that setting them might be okay if it's allowed in the form of a dialogue at the start of the game that asks if you want to use the architect's recommended settings... that provides the information, and is more convenient than having to go to the settings.
I am totally okay with being asked at the start of the hold something akin to "The architect recommends you to play this hold with undo level set to X. Would you like to apply this setting for this hold?" although there are two problems with this:
- How to change it later? Maybe in the 'enter' menu a checkbox saying 'Force X move undo in this hold'
- I am afraid it's already too late to add this function to the first release of TSS

Which is good, because, as I've said elsewhere, if UU had been in AE, I probably wouldn't have kept playing because level eight would have convinced me that being able to execute like a true smitemaster isn't as important as searching the game tree for a solution, and I'd assume that the rest of the game would be based more on that.
Eh, unfortunately AE was never really that good of a hold. Don't get me wrong, I loved it the first time I played it, but now that I am wiser and the art of hold making has grew significantly I know that it's the worst choice for the official hold to introduce players. Either JtRH or GatEB are much better.


____________________________
My website | Facebook | Twitter
06-13-2014 at 10:40 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Visit Homepage Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3741
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+2)  
As someone who was generally ambivalent about UU in principle but tried it out when re-completing TCB last week (and found it reduced tedium and frustration and improved my experience), I am curious to better understand your arguments against it.

(Conversely, it is also worth noting that I completed TSS with single undo since that's what I was used to. So I don't see any evidence to support the implication that, since it was made with UU as a possibility, the puzzles are somehow designed differently or less playable without UU).

I would be interested to know an example or examples of rooms that would be diminished by playing them with UU.

Similarly can you give me an example where UU gives someone an advantage in optimising a room? (I mean, I can see that it will save me time and the tedium of replaying larger chunks subject to the number of checkpoints available in the room but not that it will actually improve my skill at optimising). This is also part of them problem: why should my enjoyment of a given puzzle be subject to the meta-issue of checkpoint placement?

I understood mrimer's argument differently. Tar visibility is actually a good example of what I think he meant. An architect could make a horrible room, hiding stuff under tarstuff, and not realise how terrible it would actually be to play it outside of the editor. This discrepancy between the architect's experience of what they think the room will play out like (because they only tested it in the editor) and how it really does was overcome with the addition of visibility tokens and tar transparency.

Analogously, an architect may not provide enough checkpoints or may make a tedious and frustrating room (e.g. where it is easy to make a simple mistake that will require you to start over) and not realise this fact because they have only tested it in the editor with UU. This discrepancy would be overcome by making UU accessible to the player too.

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text

06-13-2014 at 10:47 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5056
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
Jacob wrote:
I understood mrimer's argument differently. Tar visibility is actually a good example of what I think he meant. An architect could make a horrible room, hiding stuff under tarstuff, and not realise how terrible it would actually be to play it outside of the editor. This discrepancy between the architect's experience of what they think the room will play out like (because they only tested it in the editor) and how it really does was overcome with the addition of visibility tokens and tar transparency.

Analogously, an architect may not provide enough checkpoints or may make a tedious and frustrating room (e.g. where it is easy to make a simple mistake that will require you to start over) and not realise this fact because they have only tested it in the editor with UU. This discrepancy would be overcome by making UU accessible to the player too.
My apologies for the poor communication. Yes, what Jacob is describing is what I meant.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
06-13-2014 at 05:00 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
bwross wrote:
my experience is still impacted just by the option existing
Currently the option exists to download the source code, set the CHEATS flag, compile it, and have room/level *skipping* as well as UU.

I just can't wrap my head around how an option existing changes anything for anyone. I *believe* you, I just fail to *understand* it. If I didn't like playing with UU I can imagine just not going to the settings page to change it from the default of 1 and playing the game as I like to. When I played DooM in the 90s I knew that iddqd existed, but I didn't type it in because I liked the challenge of not using God Mode.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
06-13-2014 at 05:16 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
hyperme
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1055
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
Schik wrote:
bwross wrote:
my experience is still impacted just by the option existing
Currently the option exists to download the source code, set the CHEATS flag, compile it, and have room/level *skipping* as well as UU.
These aren't exactly comparable, since recompiling the source takes considerably more effort that changing an option in game. But I think the general point stands.

I just can't wrap my head around how an option existing changes anything for anyone. I *believe* you, I just fail to *understand* it. If I didn't like playing with UU I can imagine just not going to the settings page to change it from the default of 1 and playing the game as I like to. When I played DooM in the 90s I knew that iddqd existed, but I didn't type it in because I liked the challenge of not using God Mode.
bwross seems to believe that the mere choice for other people to use UU will somehow alter the behavior of everyone who produces DROD holds in such a way to cease the creation of certain types of rooms. Obviously, if the UU option was magic, this might happen. Otherwise, it's kind of a weird concern, since transparent tarstuff didn't kill tar puzzles.

(If bwross' only concern is actually that other people can use UU, however, he probably needs to re-examine something. DROD is a game played on your own, by yourself in such a way that other player's settings don't affect you. Unless you can brute force high scores?)

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?
06-13-2014 at 06:39 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Doom
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 3226
Registered: 07-05-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
hyperme wrote: DROD is a game played on your own, by yourself in such a way that other player's settings don't affect you.
Other players' settings don't affect me. Interacting with other players who make a big deal out of their (or my) settings does affect me. I bet nobody was telling Schik in the 90's that he's a silly monkey who's not using iddqd only to appear more hardcore and shouldn't go bragging about it to anyone.
bwross wrote:
skell wrote: I am saying this only as me and myself - there is too much whining around the UU. Suck it up, give it a try and if you don't like it, set it to 1, 0, 3, 5 or whatever.
... are just more reason for me to hate it. Because I'm going to hear them again and again when I mention UU
I +1'd bwross for this part alone. Because it's so true. Too many posts in this thread are subtly trying to say that the other person's reasons for disliking a certain undo setting are invalid. Even Jacob with his "I can't possibly imagine what reasons you could have against UU" comes across like that, even if not intentionally.

And I know it goes both ways, which is why I really don't want to go adding "This hold is strongly recommended to be played without UU" to all of my holds, even if I personally feel that way. It's too intrusive.
06-13-2014 at 07:34 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5381
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
Doom wrote:
Too many posts in this thread are subtly trying to say that the other person's reasons for disliking a certain undo setting are invalid.
Huh. For the record, I have no problem with people using 0 undo, 1 undo, or anything up to and including UU. I hope people use the undo level that makes them enjoy the game the most.

I didn't use the word hardcore in any derogatory way, nor am I saying anyone is silly for sticking with 1 undo, or going back to 0. It would be silly for *me* to do that because I don't enjoy it as much, but to each their own.

If I gave the impression I was saying anyone was wrong for wanting anything but UU, I apologize. But I do think people are wrong for saying it is bad that people who DO want UU can now use it. :P

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi
06-13-2014 at 08:06 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
Vike91
Level: Master Delver
Avatar
Rank Points: 229
Registered: 05-19-2007
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
12th Archivist wrote:
You've opened up an old can of worms, nothing more.

Wow... this seems to be a really BIG can of worms :tvhorror

____________________________
The best way to predict the future is to create it.
06-13-2014 at 08:32 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores Quote Reply
Jacob
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3741
Registered: 10-01-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
I am slightly surprised by Doom's comment on my post.

I have nothing against anyone's opinions on this topic. Generally I am ambivalent - you could take out UU and I would not care or keep it in and I might use it occasionally. However, the fact that this is such a hot topic tells us there are interesting differences in how we think about and play the game.

So I was asking for some examples of how using UU would either detract from solving a puzzle or from the competitive process of optimisation. I honestly struggle to find examples of this from my own personal experience of drod (e.g. I am a mediocre optimiser and don't see how UU will change this).

I am happy to drop it if it is taken as a personal affront and can certainly go back to read the old threads on this to enlighten myself on this issue (I stopped reading them at the time because things seemed to get a bit too heated and unpleasant!)

____________________________
New to DROD? You may want to read this.
My Holds and Levels:
Click here to view the secret text

06-13-2014 at 10:56 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (0)  
I really hope people come back to this thread after TSS is released .

And hopefully they'll know /why/ I hope they do at that time.

Cause it's got nothing to do with unlimited undo.
06-14-2014 at 04:51 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
bwross
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 376
Registered: 04-17-2005
IP: Logged
icon Re: Let architect choose allowed undo moves? (+1)  
More secreting for length.

Vike91 wrote:
Wow... this seems to be a really BIG can of worms

Yeah, don't worry about it. At this time of year I start getting anxious and wanting to do things before the humidity rolls in and summer starts to wear on me. But since I've been waiting for TSS, I've been holding off starting anything major, so I get rambly because I have time on my hands and a feeling that I want to do something.

skell wrote:
In DROD without UU the punishment is wasting the player's time and reducing their enjoyment of the game, because I highly doubt there are many people out there who enjoy having to repeat the same sequence of keys multiple times (even more if, due to anger, the accidentally make a mistake in the repeat phase).

Click here to view the secret text


skell wrote:
Now I agree, there is no inherently negative consequence for failing to execute except being forced to hit the undo key. The thing is, hitting undo does not magically make you solve the puzzle, you still need to either try all possible combinations until you come to the solution or think more. All in all it makes the game less frustrating (and thus more enjoyable) for players (me included) who are not as smart as some of the people here.

Frustration is an important part of any game... you don't want to get rid of it. That wouldn't make the game more enjoyable, it makes it boring. Potentially frustratingly boring.

skell wrote:
There are players who are so good that their primary source of enjoyment is optimizing, but the vast majority just struggle to solve the puzzles and it's enough for them to enjoy the game very much.

Click here to view the secret text


skell wrote:
bwross wrote: Which is good, because, as I've said elsewhere, if UU had been in AE, I probably wouldn't have kept playing because level eight would have convinced me that being able to execute like a true smitemaster isn't as important as searching the game tree for a solution, and I'd assume that the rest of the game would be based more on that.
Eh, unfortunately AE was never really that good of a hold. Don't get me wrong, I loved it the first time I played it, but now that I am wiser and the art of hold making has grew significantly I know that it's the worst choice for the official hold to introduce players. Either JtRH or GatEB are much better.

Click here to view the secret text


Schik wrote:
Currently the option exists to download the source code, set the CHEATS flag, compile it, and have room/level *skipping* as well as UU.

Click here to view the secret text


Schik wrote:
When I played DooM in the 90s I knew that iddqd existed, but I didn't type it in because I liked the challenge of not using God Mode.

Click here to view the secret text


hyperme wrote:
bwross seems to believe that the mere choice for other people to use UU will somehow alter the behavior of everyone who produces DROD holds in such a way to cease the creation of certain types of rooms. Obviously, if the UU option was magic, this might happen. Otherwise, it's kind of a weird concern, since transparent tarstuff didn't kill tar puzzles.

Click here to view the secret text


hyperme wrote:
(If bwross' only concern is actually that other people can use UU, however, he probably needs to re-examine something. DROD is a game played on your own, by yourself in such a way that other player's settings don't affect you. Unless you can brute force high scores?)

As I said above, other people using UU isn't a factor beyond what it does to the shared environment (which is probably going to be more of a subtle shift... hopefully it doesn't get to the point where we never see a well placed checkpoint ever again). I have plenty of reasons to not like it on its own.

Jacob wrote:
So I was asking for some examples of how using UU would either detract from solving a puzzle or from the competitive process of optimisation.

Click here to view the secret text



06-15-2014 at 08:15 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
Page 1 of 3
23
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Let architect choose allowed undo moves?
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.