da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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File: The Mystical Palace.hold (9.7 KB)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

Edit: Is there a reason I can't remove the attachment here? It's not such a big deal, but I don't see the point of having the hold here when it's published on the holds board.

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Now on the holds board:
http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=31797


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This is my attempt at making a hold. It is a short, linear hold, full of difficult puzzles (6-8 brains). Comments would be much appreciated, I especially want feedback of how fun the rooms are, and how difficult the hold as a whole is.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 07-16-2011 01:32 AM]

Zorglub
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 74
Registered: 10-08-2007
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Very good hold start! Overall check point placement is OK for me. Difficulty was challenging, but reachable.
1N: OK
1N1W : I lured the adder with all the crumbly walls destroyed.
1N2W: Probable US, though your intended solution is shorter.
Secret room cannot be done in editor as I cannot edit the hold.

Tell me if you want the demos.

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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Thanks for all the feedback Zorglub, I really appreciate the help
My replies in blue:

Zorglub wrote:
Very good hold start! Overall check point placement is OK for me. Difficulty was challenging, but reachable.
1N: OK
1N1W : I lured the adder with all the crumbly walls destroyed.
Can I please see your demo? I can't seem to lure it without using one of the crumbly walls.

1N2W: Probable US, though your intended solution is shorter.

Click here to view the secret text

×I drove the queen in the golem lair, and had roaches press the plate. Did not use the rattle.

Thanks for finding this, that method is quite clever (I assume you use one of the golems to block the arrow passage to the east). I think adding an open red gate at 18,8 should fix it.

Secret room cannot be done in editor as I cannot edit the hold.
Sorry, I thought people would exit the stairs first before visiting the secret room, granting you editor permission. Next update I'll make it anyone edit.

Click here to view the secret text

×But easier than the previous ones.
I used the goblin for the first snake, and an eye for the second.

I know , at the moment you just need either the eye, or the golem to kill the bottom snake, which is quite esay. I'm hoping adding a south facing arrow at 1,18 will remove those unintended solutions.

Tell me if you want the demos.
The one for 1N1W and 1W please

Next update will come when I've made 2-3 puzzles in level 2, and will fix the unintended solutions in 1N2W and the secret room.

Edit: also, I've realised you can integrate demos into the hold itself, viewable from main menu, so I'll add the intended solutions for the rooms in the hold.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-08-2011 05:38 PM]

Zorglub
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 74
Registered: 10-08-2007
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File: Data.zip (31.6 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

Here are the demos.

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

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Registered: 04-06-2011
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This hold has now been updated. I've listed all of the changes in the top post.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
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File: rogu3_chaco_notes.txt (1.2 KB)
Downloaded 59 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's some notes from me regarding the first level. It was a little tricky but wasn't too hard - a good warmup level.

I think I might have found another unintended solution to 1: 1N2W. You described using the rattlesnake to decrease the roach queen's spawn, but I just killed it straight away and just put the roach queen on the plate, surrounded by roaches. That was a little tricky to do but wasn't too tough.

Let me know if you want me to give you a demo of what I did for that room or if a description is sufficient.

I'll check out the other levels now.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

da rogu3
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Thanks Chaco (+1 to you once I receive enough mod points)

I'm glad you liked 1W, I was afraid people might think it's a bit too tedious to carve through all the tar.

As for 1N1W, I see you've found all the red herrings (I hope they aren't cheap or unfair). It's impossible to lure the snake from the bottom, since it requires horizontal preference for 6 turns, when 5 is the maximum possible. The rock giant is another red herring, since the adder would just eat it.

1N2W you've found a clever unintended solution. I think I should change the room since it is much easier that way. (I might add a hot tile or remove the part of that area left of the pressure plate)

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
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File: rogu3_chaco_notes2.txt (410 bytes)
Downloaded 51 times.
License: Public Domain

da rogu3 wrote:
The rock giant is another red herring, since the adder would just eat it.

Maybe I misunderstood you or you mis-spoke, but adders don't eat rock giants. They do eat rock golems, but not whole rock giants.

==

Anyway, I conquered the hold. Here are my notes for the two puzzle rooms in level 2. I hope you can fill in those rooms.

I haven't solved Level 3 Entrance yet.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

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Chaco wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood you or you mis-spoke, but adders don't eat rock giants. They do eat rock golems, but not whole rock giants.

By that I meant it just eats the rock golems and the remains, you can't use them as walls. I think manipulating the whole giant to get in the way of the adder is very difficult, if not impossible.

As for 2:1S, I'm glad you liked that puzzle, did you think it was too easy in comparison to the puzzles in Level 1? Can I also see your demo for, I'd be interested to see how similar your solution is to mine.

2S - my demo for this room was one of the quickest. I initially thought that once you worked out where to put the golems, then separating the goblins was quite quick. I also added a subtle hint in the decoration of the room (the obstacles). The important question - did you find the room fun or frustrating? If it was too much trial and error I should probably remove it.

As for 3:En, I'm still in the process of creating a demo for this room. The solution I have found is:

Thanks for all the feedback

Edit: I've made a demo of level 3 entrance, I'll add it in the next update of the hold. I will also move the checkpoints around in that room, they're not in the most helpful spots at the moment.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-09-2011 10:29 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
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File: rogu3_chaco_demos.demo (4.4 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

Here's my hold demos.

I doubt I did anything surprising with 2: 1S. You might be interested at looking at 2: 2S and 1: 1N2W, and maybe 1: 1W if you want to see exactly what I did to solve that room.

For the record, I used a different golem formation than the one you indicated using the obstacle formation.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-09-2011 11:44 PM]

Zorglub
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 74
Registered: 10-08-2007
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For Level 3 entrance, I had to do it your way. Checkpoint placement was fine for me.
I'm wondering if bringing two eyes with the goblin would allow killing the second snake. With the goblin and one eye, I was not able to kill it, and I was not able to bring two eyes. Maybe a better eye handler would success.

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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New version! See top post for details.

I really need some more people to beta test this, it's nearing completion and it would be helpful to have a few more opinions.

Edit: I've just found yet another unintended solution to 1:1N2E, which uses the golems to block (17,16) and (21,15), not needing the snake at all. I'll be fixing that in the next update

Edit2: Oh dear. Another US in 3:En - I've realised you can just stash the goblin at (24,15), which makes the room much, much easier than it should be. And despite what I said earlier when describing this room, it is actually possible to bring both the golem, and the goblin down, but then you have to leave the eye in the top section, making the room impossible.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-17-2011 11:31 AM]

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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I've updated it again. Doesn't anyone want to comment? It's almost been a week and no-one's given any feedback.

Regarding the hold, there is a new puzzle 2:1S1E. I have also fixed the unintended solutions in 1:1N2E and 3:En. Hopefully there aren't any unintended solutions left.

Rat Man
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 121
Registered: 07-10-2010
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I downloaded an early version way back and got stuck on the first room. I've been following this thread anyway, but I haven't commented.

____________________________
I'M IN SPACE!

Penwielder
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 628
Registered: 09-12-2009
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Okay, I've done the first level. I like it so far, even though I'm generally no fan of snake manipulation. I liked the looks it.

Specific comments:


Demos included. I'll take them down as soon as you have them.
EDIT: The attachment here was made obsolete by the one in my next post.

____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-21-2011 06:03 PM]

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
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Thanks very much for the comments Penwielder btw I'm not too bothered about you taking the demos down, since all of my demos of the intended solutions are viewable from the main menu.

Regarding 1W, I see what you did in that demo. I built the room (and 1N1W) with the idea that snakes won't automatically turn west, unless you use other elements to force its path, or move west into the same column as it. I wouldn't have even thought it would be possible if you immediately carve away all the tar. I'll probably do something about this room, as it can get really tedious if not done the right way, and I don't want to scare people away from the hold just by the first room.

1N1W- I'm glad you liked this, I didn't think it would be possible to lure the serpert from the bottom as you did, due to the 6 horizontal moves required, but evidently I was wrong Not really much of an issue since it isn't much easier than going into the loop and behind the serpent.

1N2W- Very clever method! Unintended (see my demo), but since it still requires the rattlesnake and golems, I think I'll leave it as it is. The ormites don't really do anything, I might polish up that whole wraithwing area. As for the goblins, they would have increased the difficulty a little (in the intended solution, where they follow you into the lower area)

In fact, the only concern that I'm beginning to have is that most of the rooms in the hold tend to become trial and error, if you don't fully know about serpent movement. Ah well :/ I guess it's a matter of taste then.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-21-2011 08:39 AM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
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File: r3D 3 1S failure.demo (1.2 KB)
Downloaded 41 times.
License: Public Domain

I'm still working on some of the new rooms.

Level 3: 1S seems like a lot of trial and error, since it can be tricky to figure out which moves save enough time to beat the briar and which don't. I was only able to get through the middle section with the golems and roaches due to a movement order quirk.

I have here attached a failure demo. I'd like a hint.

I seem to be a move short somewhere before the evil eye section. If I could somehow be one more move ahead of the briar at that point, I could kill both eyes with my sword facing southwest and save some more moves compared to having to face West, possibly enough to get the goblin through to the snakes.

I don't think I can get extra moves from the crumbly walls, since in the large rectangle, breaking one crumbly wall takes one of Beethro's turns but only slows the briar down for one turn. So I must have made a mistake in some earlier section. Could I have a hint as to what I'm doing wrong?

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 04-20-2011 11:40 PM]

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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As for the crumbly walls,
I don't want the rooms to be trial and error, creating frustration for the player, but I think this room does well as being a final extremely difficult room.

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[Last edited by da rogu3 at 04-21-2011 08:38 AM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
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Thanks, both your room completion tip and the purpose of the final crumbly wall section make perfect sense.

At some point I'll probably run through the hold start to finish again so I can comment on all the changes and new rooms.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Zorglub
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 74
Registered: 10-08-2007
IP: Logged

Ran the whole hold, and it's nice. The decoration crumbly walls were puzzling, as I was expecting a secret room.
I like the new room 2:1S1E. It ended easier than what I was struggling with.
3:En I now tougher, requiring snake timing.
The last room 3:1S is good also, with precise timing required.

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

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The crumbly walls scattered in level 2 are mainly for atmosphere to give a sense of a breaking, unstable place.

2:1S1E - you solved this the intended way, right?

And I'm glad you like 3:1S.

What would you judge the overall difficulty as being on the brains scale? And do you think the difficulty progression works, or are some rooms out of place?

Zorglub
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 74
Registered: 10-08-2007
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da rogu3 wrote:
2:1S1E - you solved this the intended way, right?

Click here to view the secret text

×I used a shortened rattle to block the adder after the red doors. then dropped the traps, brought the adder at the beginning of the bridge, brought the platform

da rogu3 wrote:
What would you judge the overall difficulty as being on the brains scale? And do you think the difficulty progression works, or are some rooms out of place?

I'm not good at rating the difficulty, specially when finding US hint at the IS. So the solution identification is already partly done. Then remains the execution part. Level 3 is typical. Entrance is tough on finding what to do. 1S is tough on doing it.
I'd say something like 8.

Penwielder
Level: Smitemaster
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I'm through with level two, which I thought had a nice look to it. I like the hold even more now.
One thing I didn't notice before: please place checkpoints near the exit stairs of each level.

Concerning level one:

Comments on level two:

I'm excited to move on to level three sometime soon. This is good stuff. I might not have liked snake manipulation in the past, but in close quarters it's a little easier to deal with, and I'm getting some valuable experience from this.

____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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My replies are in blue:

Penwielder wrote:
I'm through with level two, which I thought had a nice look to it. I like the hold even more now.
That's cool I'm planning on redesigning all the rooms, with lighting, obstacles, etc.. , once I've finished with the puzzles.
One thing I didn't notice before: please place checkpoints near the exit stairs of each level.
Good call, I forgot about that.

Concerning level one:

Click here to view the secret text

×1W: I see what you did now. What annoyed me was not the part about getting the snake where it needed to be--it was keeping it alive the whole time while I set things up.
I think I'll either change the room a bit, or add an area where you can stash the snake. I must admit, before I memorised the method of always keeping it alive, I too found it a bit frustrating when not playing in the editor.
1N1W: Oh, wow. Your solution is much easier than mine. What I did was so precise that I thought it had to be intended. Either way, I still like this room quite well.
1N2W: Huh. Your solution isn't as different from mine as I thought.

Comments on level two:

Click here to view the secret text

×1S: This was my least favorite room of the level. I had to redo most of it when I realized that you need both wraithwings, and both times through I had a terrible time getting the adder back in at the eyes.
hmm this room is a bit unforgiving at first. I struck the adder at turn 5, so it would eat up the eyes before exiting the chamber. Luring it back in the eye chamber is much, much easier if it's 2 squares long. (snakes prefer to move E over W)
2S: I liked it once I realized that you don't need all three of them following you in the right order right away. After seeing your solution, I realized that you only need one golem. I've included both that demo and one of what I originally did.
Thanks, although I already knew of both solutions. The reason I left all three golems in was to offer the player some choice, so they don't have to be so specific.
2S1E: This was fine. It's not as intimidating as it looks.
I'm not sure about this room. My gut feeling is that it's too easy, and out of place with the other rooms. What's your opinion of the difficulty?
1S1E: This was my favorite room of the level. My solution was fairly precise in terms of snake movement. I really liked what I did, but I'm afraid it wasn't what you had in mind. See demo.
I don't think that solution is too unintended. After all, it still requires both rattler and the adder to complete. You still need good timing as well (it looks like I placed the checkpoints well here )

I'm excited to move on to level three sometime soon. This is good stuff. I might not have liked snake manipulation in the past, but in close quarters it's a little easier to deal with, and I'm getting some valuable experience from this.
That's nice to know

Overall, I'd prefer to have rooms which don't require anything too specific/precise, but still need the right idea to solve.

Penwielder
Level: Smitemaster
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File: rogu3s Dungeon Demos-PW.zip (16 KB)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

Comments on level three:

More on level two:


____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

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[Last edited by Penwielder at 04-21-2011 08:57 PM]

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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@Penwielder

Penwielder
Level: Smitemaster
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File: PW-r3D 3 En Victory.demo (1.6 KB)
Downloaded 46 times.
License: Public Domain

2:1S:

Attached is another demo of 3: En.

I'm looking forward to what changes you make, and where things will go from here. I don't think you'll have too much trouble resolving any of the issues.

____________________________
Penwielder's Palace, Detention Complex, Archipelago, Cube of Memories

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

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Thanks for the demo, I see what you were getting at now. I really appreciate all the help with finding alternative solutions, it's been very useful

I will probably get the next update done in a few days time.

da rogu3
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 491
Registered: 04-06-2011
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I have a scripting question (unrelated to this particular hold, though) - I don't want to create a whole new topic for it, so I'll just ask here to avoid cluttering up other boards.

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1978
Registered: 10-23-2003
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Label loop
  If...
     Wait for entity Player 26,11,26,11
        Player role Slayer
  End if
  Wait 0 turns
  Go to loop

I think this is what you're looking for. Loops require a "Wait 0 turns" command to work properly. Don't ask me why.

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http://beepsandbloops.wordpress.com/