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12th Archivist
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I have made a few adjustments to the hold. The Convict Catcher should be able to be defeated now. Also, the epic boss should be easier to defeat now. I hope this new version satisfies everyone, as I am going to give to the HA pretty soon now.

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12-22-2008 at 07:29 PM
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Getting the Grappling Hook has been made much more difficult. Force arrows, trapdoors, and seep who dominate every corner. I hope you enjoy losing health for the Oremite Shield! :)

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12-22-2008 at 07:52 PM
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I tried to make the music revert to playing default all the time when there's no more rattlesnake. It didn't work, so I'm guessing I'll have to use a variable.

The Warp Token's purpose is so secret, I'm going to have to PM you about it.

If you're talking about the room where you have the choice between the really easy and the hard creature, it isn't intentional to have the flippers to get past them. That's why in the ABSOLUTE newest version, you can't get past either choice rooms with the flippers. You can't even get past it using the Grappling Hook anymore!

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12-22-2008 at 08:59 PM
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The hold has been updated. And Nuntar, I still need to give you that PM.

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12-22-2008 at 09:25 PM
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Ah yes. I've fixed that to be pits now. I've also fixed the Serpent Music.

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12-22-2008 at 09:39 PM
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Hold updated! Hurray! I've added a few places to give you rewards for having so many yellow keys, but not too much. I've fixed the Cell Keeper and the spelling errors (hopefully). I have also fixed the disappearing door to build Alternate Floor underneath (see it yourself).

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12-23-2008 at 05:23 AM
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Gordius
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The Convict Catcher seems about right, but the Cell Keeper (boss of A, right?) may be a little too easy. I arrived in his room at a point to kill him without any damage. Of course, even after that, Imperial Wrathmen and Imprisoned Guards were much too hard to kill. It seems like a pretty stark jump in difficulty. Maybe a tradeoff in which the Keeper is a little harder, but the reward behind him is a little bigger.

Also, I haven't tried any of them yet (short a green key), but there are some fascinating options for using the pickaxe. I don't think any of them are the intended use, but some interesting options for bypassing Wrathmen or intersecting Aumtlich beams.
12-23-2008 at 05:34 PM
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I've changed the hold somewhat. Now, the Cell Keeper in A is harder, and has a cutscene for running away. The Imperial Wrathmen and Imprisoned Guards will be changed in the next update.

Actually, almost all of the possibilities with the pickaxe are partly intended. Although there's a really major intention for where you use it, making a hole there is completely unrequired for winning the hold.

EDIT: Imperial Wrathmen and Imprisoned Guards now do less damage.

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 12-23-2008 06:40 PM]
12-23-2008 at 06:36 PM
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Slightly updated the hold. I believe everything here is in order to Submit unless someone tells me otherwise soon.

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12-23-2008 at 08:28 PM
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Tim
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Why aren't people just reading my posts?

http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=27098&page=0#268547

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12-23-2008 at 08:54 PM
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Gordius
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I don't know whether this is an issue with the hold, a bug with the game, a problem on my end, or a basic failure on my part to understand the mechanism, but it's well-illustrated in this hold, so I'll at least talk about it here.

Are there types of single space empty that the grappling hook isn't supposed to be able to traverse? In ID:2N2E, I can bounce around at various places in the upper half with it. But if I use the pickaxe to knock out the wall to the W of the upper Wrathman, I would expect to then be able to grapple to the power gem, but can't. Similarly, I then go around the Wrathman and collect the stuff behind him, but can't grapple (diagonally) to the shield gem. I don't know (since I can't get there), but I imagine I can't grapple N from there to the key, either. In answer to the stupid (but entirely reasonable) question, yes I went back and picked back up the grappling hook before trying these things.

I couldn't find a thread in RPG Bugs talking about this, but there are a lot of generically-named threads and I didn't read all of them.
12-24-2008 at 03:09 PM
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Looks like I typed in the wrong number or something! I meant for a somewhat lower statted creature, not this! I've changed his stats to the *correct* stats now. The fight should be much more manegable (but hopefully not a one-shot).

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12-25-2008 at 05:02 AM
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I wanted for people to get greater highscores with the lucky greckle and VIP card, but since neither greckles nor REP are counted as a highscore, I'm thinking of making a Third goblin merchant somewhere secret in the hold who needs a A LOT of money. That's where the lucky greckle and Gel Mother come in, if you do it right, you can get a massive amount of greckles off of her.

I will change the enemies in the brained Choice room, as well as change the stats of the Jailor.

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12-25-2008 at 04:02 PM
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THe HOld has been updated! The room behind the slayer now provides more stats. Not only that, but rather than giving you worthless Lucky Greckles and VIP cards, it gives you a speed potion! This will make it much, much easier to kill the Jailor, which I have changed the stats of.

The brained choice room has had its enemies moved to different places. You still need to kill an adder, but you may do so with extra health. I have also removed the Wrathman from that room, so the amount of ATK each will steadily increase with enemy.

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12-25-2008 at 04:24 PM
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Yay! Double yay! Triple yay! The hold is fully completable now! There just needs to be a few changes before I can give out the potentially "final" version.

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12-25-2008 at 05:19 PM
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That 'ought to do it! I've fixed the score board so that you can fully see the title. I have also added to the 23rd Jailor's script. When you defeat the Jailor on a certain tile, he moves backwards to the opposite tile. This not only makes the battle look more natural, but it also fixes a Neverending Cutscene Bug. In the old version, he always stepped to the north-western corner of the pressure plate. If you battled with him on that tile, he would go into a never-ending cutscene.

Just a fix.

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12-25-2008 at 05:42 PM
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Blondbeard
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Just a quick note: You can give highscores for whatever you want. Check out Dischorran's Washed Ashore in build mode to learn how.

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12-26-2008 at 08:17 AM
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quote:
Nuntar wrote:
I'm at work now so I can't check how to do it, but I seem to remember there's a setting (perhaps an imperative or behaviour?) to make changes to stat variables not show as floating numbers, which would be what you would want.

That's "Imperative Don't Show Stat Changes".

Thanks for the script! I might do something like it in my next hold.

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12-26-2008 at 04:16 PM
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Chaco
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I think it bears mentioning that Cell Block B: Thrice West is impossible to reach from Twice West because even with the grappling hook, a 2-wide pit cannot be crossed. You'll need to either extend the bridge outward one square or make a pit to the northeast of the bridge space, so that someone using the Pickaxe cleverly can make a diagonal crossing that is one square wide.

The conspicuous door in Cell Block D: 5 East doesn't lead anywhere. (I checked this using the editor, since the portable orb is unreachable as mentioned previously.)

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12-26-2008 at 08:02 PM
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Chaco
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Sorry - I just found the Warp Token in the secret room, which does make the portable orb room reachable.

(In which case, I'd recommend walling off that area or extending the pit range to make it quite obvious it's not a mistake.)

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12-26-2008 at 08:44 PM
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quote:
Chaco wrote:
Sorry - I just found the Warp Token in the secret room, which does make the portable orb room reachable.

(In which case, I'd recommend walling off that area or extending the pit range to make it quite obvious it's not a mistake.)

I can't change the bridge at the end at all (that's where you warp to), but I can fully wall it off.

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12-26-2008 at 09:23 PM
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And done! Score 4775 (without the last secret). 4232/534/580/8/6/1/1. And I also left another secret -_- Really nice hold!

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12-26-2008 at 09:36 PM
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So is there meant to be a RBS and Oremite Shield left in B 1N1E?

It makes everything so much easier.

Also, on the long path to the plate to open the door to the water flippers it says the cost is 2880 but there's one you can avoid so it's only 2840. Do you want to change that or put in a ortho-square? It's not a big deal, there are plenty of greckles to use.
12-27-2008 at 02:21 AM
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I'm not going to change it. The player needs to know how to move diagonally and not waste greckles in some places.

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12-27-2008 at 03:34 PM
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Blondbeard
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Score 5011 after finding the big secret.

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12-27-2008 at 08:14 PM
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deftriver
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So I only picked up on this because I made a really easy copy just to go through the story line. But the pet owner in B still says the thing about killing his pet even if you haven't, like attacking it from the tail end. I don't think it's that big of a deal but just wanted to point it out.
01-01-2009 at 02:45 AM
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Not too easy to change that! I really don't want to move the entire secret wall elsewhere. Then again, this is the same sort of problem encountered in TT, The Goblin Tribe, where you can get to the secret room without fully killing the rattlesnake.

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01-01-2009 at 03:16 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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I like what I see so far! Too bad I'm stuck in D:1S2E... the brained eyes are just too much a challenge! Maybe you should remove the red door, or make two paths, one blocked by the black door, the other blocked by the red door?

Argh... as soon as I posted, I saw the north black door open... >_<

Still, you could consider that change?

EDIT 2: I think you overuse the red doors in your hold... For example, in C: 2S3E, I think it should just lead to a secret room or an alternate path, not block the main path... -_-

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01-14-2009 at 12:45 AM
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Njaa
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File: 23rd Jailor.JPG (22.8 KB)
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453/679/864/8/2/2/1

Score = 6208

100% Secrets

Nice hold :cool

[Last edited by Njaa at 01-14-2009 01:24 AM]
01-14-2009 at 01:20 AM
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12th Archivist
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In recognition of my one-year anniversary here, it seems like a good idea to finish this project. I have already put some time away to fix any remaining bugs already mentioned. A new version should be out soon and players can test it from there.

*cue bold, unnecessary speech*

It's quite impressive, really. Last time I gave this topic significant attention in posting... wow. So much has happened since then. And not just for me, but for all of you. Seriously, think about what life was like for you back when you were testing this hold for the first few times. That was a year ago. In fact, didn't it take at least a year for Doom's first hold, "Nightmare Dungeon" to get completed? Heh, I might follow the same track as he did and make nearly impossible RPG holds for everyone. But that's in the future, so it probably doesn't matter now. Just sit back and enjoy the ride for all that it's worth.

Times like these can get you very sentimental. :~(

[/speech]

It might have been more impressive if this post came with a new version as opposed to just a quick notice about everything that has or could have happened since then. Oh well. At least look forward to a far less cheesy choice of words in the hold. That and some more substantial things, like better puzzles and an improved difficulty curve.

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12-10-2009 at 05:20 AM
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