Elfstone
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Many of you will know by now that I am fairly clueless about the workings of computers, so will not be altogether surprised if I'm asking for something which is technically impossible . . . .


. .but I'm going to ask anyway

I have just started making rooms in DROD - a mini level for Ezlo's contest. In it I used tunnels. I expected to be able to connect them in much the way that orbs are connected to the doors which they control - a sort of click and drag lightning bolt.

I have to say I was a bit disappointed to find out that they don't work that way; so my request is for exctly that - tunnels which can be made by clicking and dragging between any two chosen openings.

Elf(hopeful)stone.

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[Last edited by Elfstone at 08-31-2006 09:01 PM]

Kevin_P86
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What would you hope to accomplish by "connecting" them? Tunnels work such that if you go through a tunnel which is facing left (for example), you will end up in the closest tunnel to the left in the same row (facing any direction), wrapping to the other side of the screen as necessary.

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eytanz
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I think what Elfstone is proposing is to allow tunnels to freely connect anywhere, not just in a straight line.

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Maurog
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That doesn't sound very... backward-compatible.

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Briareos
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Maurog wrote:
That doesn't sound very... backward-compatible.

Well, of course you can't use the current tunnels for it.

How about wormholes?

np: SCSI-9 - Albali (The Line Of Nine)

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eytanz
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This suggestion is not without its problems, the additional complexity being the main one, but backwards compatibility isn't really one - just automatically link every tunnel to it's destination tunnel.

Note that the "connections" would have to be non-symmetric, though, or the whole thing breaks apart.

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Elfstone
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Kevin said:

What would you hope to accomplish by "connecting" them? Tunnels work such that if you go through a tunnel which is facing left (for example), you will end up in the closest tunnel to the left in the same row (facing any direction), wrapping to the other side of the screen as necessary.

-yes I understand that, but I wanted to go through a tunnel daigonally across the room. I ended up in the middle of the room and wanted a quick way to one of the corners; a diagonal tunnel seemed the obvious way, until I discovered that it won't do that.

eytanz said:

I think what Elfstone is proposing is to allow tunnels to freely connect anywhere, not just in a straight line.

- well, no actually; there would still be a straight line between the two openings of the tunnel, but it would be a diagonal line; in other words the two openings would not have to be in the same row or column.

backward-compatible.

Note that the "connections" would have to be non-symmetric

-I don't really understand those, but I suspect you're telling me that it can't be done. Oh well.

Elf.

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eytanz
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Well, I think there's a confusion here between two different things.

Currently, tunnels take you to the nearest tunnel in their direction. This only works orthogonally.

It wouldn't take much to add diagonal tunnels that work in exactly the same way, only diagonally. So, you'd still have to be on a single line, just a diagonal line.

I thought you were suggesting fully connectable tunnels, like orbs are, where a tunnel could take you to another tunnel regardless of their relative direction and/or position. This is also possible, but more complicated.

By non-symmetry I meant that just because tunnel A takes you to tunnel B, there's no guaruntee that tunnel B takes you back to tunnel A. That's how it works at the moment - you can have a string of several tunnels, and if the tunnels change direction mid-way you might never get back to where you started. You'd need to have new tunnels support this behavior, or, as Briareos suggested, add a new type of tunnels in addition to the current ones instead of just upgrading the existing ones.

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Kevin_P86
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Yes, diagonal tunnels isn't a bad idea. I always wondered why they were currently only orthogonal...

The only thing I can think of is it's less obvious when two things are in the same diagonal line compared with two things in the same row or column, so it wouldn't be as immedately obvious where a given diagonal tunnel ends up.

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Jatopian
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Kevin_P86 wrote:
Yes, diagonal tunnels isn't a bad idea. I always wondered why they were currently only orthogonal...

The only thing I can think of is it's less obvious when two things are in the same diagonal line compared with two things in the same row or column, so it wouldn't be as immedately obvious where a given diagonal tunnel ends up.

It could be because of the mechanic wherein one enters a tunnel facing the edge, and goes to the next tunnel via a wrap-around. It could work for diagonals, but it would look odd.

My problem with connectable tunnels is what movement would trigger them.

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Elfstone wrote:
-I don't really understand those, but I suspect you're telling me that it can't be done. Oh well.

The only thing that can't be done is to change the current tunnels to work in the way you want. Technically there is no reason why we couldn't add in new types of tunnels that worked diagonally, but called them something different. The question is whether or not this is worth it, and personally, I don't think so. But don't let that discourage you from thinking of new ideas! And anyway, you will get used to the tunnels in time, never fear.

Game on,

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trick
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Why would diagonal tunnels (that is, strictly diagonal, not freely assigned ones) need to be called something else ? Any loops with only orthogonal tunnels would still work the same way anyway, and allowing mixing of diagonal and orthogonal tunnels in a loop doesn't seem that bad to me.

(Freely assigned tunnels would need another name, of course.)

- Gerry

AlefBet
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trick wrote:
Why would diagonal tunnels (that is, strictly diagonal, not freely assigned ones) need to be called something else ? Any loops with only orthogonal tunnels would still work the same way anyway, and allowing mixing of diagonal and orthogonal tunnels in a loop doesn't seem that bad to me.

I lobbied against diagonal tunnels during the game design because with room wrapping it can appear almost random where the tunnel associations end up, especially if it wraps top-to-bottom three times and left-to-right twice. I also prefer tunnel associations being implicit by placement because it's less hidden information. If I had been involved in the Webfoot days, I might have even lobbied for a game element to connect orbs and doors visually, similar to a fuse, or for associations to be implicit in their placement. (Which means it's probably a good thing I wasn't involved in the Webfoot days .)

(Freely assigned tunnels would need another name, of course.)

Well, not necessarily. Like with diagonally-connecting doors from AE, tunnel associations from previous game version holds could be associated on room import. (That is, if freeform-associated tunnels were to be introduced.)

But I don't really see the need for these. In most cases, you can get the effect of an arbitrary tunnel by using two-step tunnels. True, it takes an extra turn to get to the end and you have to place a few extra game elements in the room. Are puzzles using freeform tunnels really that constrained/specific?

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trick
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Sheesh, I have the memory of a goldfish sometimes ..

One-step diagonal tunnels would matter in monster herding puzzles and the like, affect timing, and would save space in any case (opening a square for other uses, perhaps another tunnel).

Still, the diagonal-wrapping argument is a good one .. although personally, I don't really mind the idea of even randomly associated tunnels that much (that is, decided by the architect, not truly random). Maybe it's not right for DROD, though.

- Gerry

zex20913
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Well, then how about non-wrappable diagonal tunnels? This would eliminate much of the guesswork associated with the wrappable, and still be able to cut across (most of) the screen in one turn.

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silver
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it could be "okay" if you could click on the tunnel to see where it goes (and click on the destination to see if goes back - look before you leap, hey?) but it's still a lot more semi-hidden info and we're already heavily into rooms where you have to click a lot to make a plan.

I could be wrong, but I think one of drod's philosophies is the idea that you can look at a room and figure it out before you take your first step. orbs break this a little (but have a nice workaround), scripting breaks this Big Time... in fact, with scripting as a precedent, I'm not sure if I care if I have to click tunnels to see where they go -- in fact, I'd think it handy even now, eith the predictable orthogonalities, to be able to click tunnels, because sometimes layouts are confusing.

I'm not sure "merely diagonal" tunnels (as opposed to random-destination ones) would need to be "special or different" since they follow the same rules (i.e. you can only exit in a straight line in the direction the tunnel goes, and it acts as a destination for other tunnels regardless of direction). it adds a certain flexibility. but I'd like clickable-for-destination tunnels even if they all work on straight lines.

right now, I'm turning several English teachers over in their graves for failing to organize my thoughts into coherent paragraphs with points and support, sorry.



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[Last edited by silver at 09-01-2006 03:13 AM]

Kevin_P86
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silver wrote:
but I'd like clickable-for-destination tunnels even if they all work on straight lines.

That is currently how it works.

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eytanz
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Ever since Mike got that time machine, whenever he sees a good feature request he just goes back in time and implements it before it was ever suggested. That makes life a whole lot simpler for everyone

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Chaco
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...in other words, this isn't a good idea, because it isn't already implemented?

You also have to consider that Mike has one of those devices from the future that lets him type really fast too, so no complaining about things taking too many lines.

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silver
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Kevin_P86 wrote:

silver wrote:
but I'd like clickable-for-destination tunnels even if they all work on straight lines.

That is currently how it works.

sweet. hurray for Mike's time machine...

...so what's the problem with diagonal tunnels? they aren't incompatible, they wouldn't "break" any current rooms or tunnels (since they aren't pointed diagonally...), they aren't really "different". they're a decent feature suggestion.

random-destination tunnels would definitely need to be considered different/separate/new... they're a semi-okay feature suggestion.

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Elfstone
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File: Tunnel Example.hold (615 bytes)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

It seems my lack of technical expertise, and maybe the way I phrased the request, has led to some confusion, for which I apologise. If I can try to clarify:

It's not the tunnels per se that I want connected. I realise now that that isn't very clear in my first post. What I would like is the ability to put to openings (or entrance -exit, if that's the right way of saying it) in a diagonal line from each other, with a straight tunnel between them. From what I understand of the workings, two things would be necessary:

1. At the moment when the master roach is rotated, other roaches can be placed with their heads pointing in one of 8 directions, but tunnel openings only rotate to one of 4 directions; that would need to be changed to 8 to accomodate diagonals.

2. In a situation where a room only has two openings (which was what I was trying to do) there is no doubt about where Beethro is going to go. I can however see a use for this where one might place 3 or 4 openings, to make life a little trickier, and in that situation the 2 openings which the architect intends to connect with a tunnel would have to be "married" (I realise that's not the right term!) to each other somehow, possibly in the way that orbs and doors are by clicking and dragging.

I've made a wee example which I hope will clear any lingering confusion. If Beethro ends up in the middle, after lengthy battles, and I want him to be able to exit quickly to the SW, I have to be able to 'marry' the middle opening to the SW one, eliminating any chance of him ending up NW.

It may well be that this idea is not possible to implement, but I hope I have made the request a bit clearer now.

Elf.

PS If you're interested, the room in which I wanted this is W1 in my mini-level for Ezlo's contest.



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[Last edited by Elfstone at 09-01-2006 05:30 PM]

mrimer
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Thanks, Elfstone, for sharing this feature request as you delve into room architecture (no pun intended ). I've been considering the practicality of extending tunnel usage and have been following this thread with interest. I'll throw in my two cents on the matter.

Elfstone wrote:
It may well be that this idea is not possible to implement, but I hope I have made the request a bit clearer now.

Don't worry about what's possible. Virtually any idea is possible to implement. However, what is most important to me is how it would affect play. More intricate puzzles? Simpler (i.e. "cleaner") puzzle widgets? Fun-factor? Trickiness? More exacting solutions?

Regarding diagonal tunnels: reasons like saving one room tile to make arbitrary tunnel hops, or wanting diagonal hops in one step instead of two, imo, seem low on the gameplay/design payoff scale. Not that there's anything wrong with adding such gameplay mechanics, but adding new game elements or rules solely for the above reasons seem to give little bang for your buck. Also, I'd be disinclined to add diagonal tunnels just so rooms could be made a bit trickier. I'm a fan of bona fide puzzles more than obscure solutions. If diagonal tunnels could give rise to new kinds of puzzles, I'd be more interested in adding them. I haven't been able to think of any myself, though. Ideas?

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mrimer wrote:
Thanks, Elfstone, for sharing this feature request as you delve into room architecture (no pun intended ). I've been considering the practicality of extending tunnel usage and have been following this thread with interest. I'll throw in my two cents on the matter.

Elfstone wrote:
It may well be that this idea is not possible to implement, but I hope I have made the request a bit clearer now.

Don't worry about what's possible. Virtually any idea is possible to implement. However, what is most important to me is how it would affect play. More intricate puzzles? Simpler (i.e. "cleaner") puzzle widgets? Fun-factor? Trickiness? More exacting solutions?

Regarding diagonal tunnels: reasons like saving one room tile to make arbitrary tunnel hops, or wanting diagonal hops in one step instead of two, imo, seem low on the gameplay/design payoff scale. Not that there's anything wrong with adding such gameplay mechanics, but adding new game elements or rules solely for the above reasons seem to give little bang for your buck. Also, I'd be disinclined to add diagonal tunnels just so rooms could be made a bit trickier. I'm a fan of bona fide puzzles more than obscure solutions. If diagonal tunnels could give rise to new kinds of puzzles, I'd be more interested in adding them. I haven't been able to think of any myself, though. Ideas?

What if you could use a diagonal tunnel whilst in an ortho-square area, thus making a jump allowing smitery not currently possible?

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coppro wrote:
What if you could use a diagonal tunnel whilst in an ortho-square area, thus making a jump allowing smitery not currently possible?

I don't see how this is a puzzle, though. It may be a movement not currently possible, but so is one-move diagonal jumps, and just being able to perform a move that you can't do now isn't that compelling unless it can be used to great effect in hold design.

Also, it wouldn't work. Ortho squares would restrict your diagonal movement just like they do now, preventing you from taking the tunnel. (Try it right now with regular tunnels and force arrows.) And if you remove the ortho square from that tile, well, you as the architect could have done that anyway.

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coppro
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AlefBet wrote:

coppro wrote:
What if you could use a diagonal tunnel whilst in an ortho-square area, thus making a jump allowing smitery not currently possible?

I don't see how this is a puzzle, though. It may be a movement not currently possible, but so is one-move diagonal jumps, and just being able to perform a move that you can't do now isn't that compelling unless it can be used to great effect in hold design.

Also, it wouldn't work. Ortho squares would restrict your diagonal movement just like they do now, preventing you from taking the tunnel. (Try it right now with regular tunnels and force arrows.) And if you remove the ortho square from that tile, well, you as the architect could have done that anyway.

Ahhh... excellent point. I know I made some paragraph or something about the inequalities of diagonal movement on an orthagonal grid or something to somesuch effect, but I can't remember now.

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AlefBet wrote:

Also, it wouldn't work. Ortho squares would restrict your diagonal movement just like they do now, preventing you from taking the tunnel. (Try it right now with regular tunnels and force arrows.) And if you remove the ortho square from that tile, well, you as the architect could have done that anyway.

Quick question, because I don't have access to DROD now, and won't for a month and haven't seen this before:

If you have a tunnel and a force arrow "facing" each other, i.e, you want to move left in the tunnel, but there's a right-pointing arrow in the space directly to the left of the tunnel, will you move?

Also, can FAs go on tunnel squares?

As for an idea implementing diagonal tunnels, I can see Billiards themed rooms, as well as tighter timing puzzles. There would probably also be potential for some more Slayer kills, and more obscure mazes. So, not much puzzle potential, IMO, but it does seem to be aesthetically pleasing, and congruent with the rest of the game (either 8 orientations or 1. The tunnels are the only things with 4 orientations that I can think of.)

I still loathe the huge wraparound idea though, as AlefBet mentioned several posts earlier. Diagonal tunnelry should be intuitive, and easily determinable, if not obvious.

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zex20913 wrote:

AlefBet wrote:

Also, it wouldn't work. Ortho squares would restrict your diagonal movement just like they do now, preventing you from taking the tunnel. (Try it right now with regular tunnels and force arrows.) And if you remove the ortho square from that tile, well, you as the architect could have done that anyway.

Quick question, because I don't have access to DROD now, and won't for a month and haven't seen this before:

If you have a tunnel and a force arrow "facing" each other, i.e, you want to move left in the tunnel, but there's a right-pointing arrow in the space directly to the left of the tunnel, will you move?

Yes.

Also, can FAs go on tunnel squares?

Yes. If they're facing the opposite direction from the tunnel you can't use the tunnel (useful for destination tunnels; of course, arrows facing in other directions on tunnels could have different uses).



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Hikari
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While on the subject of tunnels... Can we get something added to them, the way we have with eyes and orbs, that lets us see what the tunnel is going to do if we click on it?

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eytanz
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Hikari wrote:
While on the subject of tunnels... Can we get something added to them, the way we have with eyes and orbs, that lets us see what the tunnel is going to do if we click on it?

Oh, come on...

From higher up in this very thread:

Kevin_P86 wrote:

silver wrote:
but I'd like clickable-for-destination tunnels even if they all work on straight lines.

That is currently how it works.

So, not only do you not check in the game to see that the feature you just requested is already in, but you don't even check to see if no-one did the exact same thing a few posts back in the same thread?

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eytanz wrote:
So, not only do you not check in the game to see that the feature you just requested is already in, but you don't even check to see if no-one did the exact same thing a few posts back in the same thread?

I think he borrowed Mike's time machine, so that he could post this request before silver did, but accidentally posted before getting in the time machine.

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