Jatopian
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Alright, let's say I'm beta-testing a hold. I'm playing through the level, because that puts me in the end-product player's position, but I've already done a difficult horde-management room and don't feel like matching a demo move-for-move. Or let's say I've restored rather far back to correct a mistake I made early on (KDD level 8, anyone?) and would rather not replay several rooms I've already completed.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to load up a demo and click "Reenact", and have the game redo the room as you watch?

"But Jatopian, wouldn't that let lazy persons abuse the Hints & Solutions or Caravelnet demos?" Yes. That's why I suggest making demos un-reenactable by default, except for the originating player, with the option to make them reenactable available.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 09-04-2006 10:18 PM : misspelled "repetitive" in subtitle]

Someone Else
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Isn't there something that can tell you if it is a beta hold or not?
If there is, then Beta holds could do this, but not most holds.(Unless it's your own demo. Then it could work this way as well)

eytanz
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Someone Else wrote:
Isn't there something that can tell you if it is a beta hold or not?
If there is, then Beta holds could do this, but not most holds.(Unless it's your own demo. Then it could work this way as well)

That's a good idea, but beta-tester demos can be used later on for real highscores, so I'm not sure it's enough.

Idea: If a demo (or part of a demo) was reenacted, the game won't record a new demo.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 08-28-2006 05:57 PM]

Jatopian
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I don't think I quite made clear how badly I want this feature: Very much so.

Someone Else wrote:
Isn't there something that can tell you if it is a beta hold or not?
If there is, then Beta holds could do this, but not most holds.(Unless it's your own demo. Then it could work this way as well)

I thought one's own demos would be most likely to give one an edge in getting the high score first, but OK...

eytanz wrote: beta-tester demos can be used later on for real highscores, so I'm not sure it's enough.

I forgot about that. I'd say that would be a perk of beta-testing, but since I'm not one for caring about high scores (I think I accidentally got one once), I'd be fine with reenactments disqualifying for high scores.

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 08-29-2006 02:27 AM]

zex20913
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I like this idea--for the actual game as well. Fish Fillets has this sort of mechanism (there's a save key, and a restore key, F2 and F3 respectively). I think this would greatly reduce optimisation time for those of us who enjoy it, and tedious "crap, I made two wrong moves in a row without undoing" times for...everybody. Of course, it would change to "without saving the spot", but whatever.

Then again, that's what checkpoints are for...so this feature would eliminate the need for them, and that might be much more hassle than it's worth.

Still, it'd be nice...a portable checkpoint.

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Remlin
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Let's not turn this idea into unlimited undos or portable checkpoints or whatever. The point (I think) is to avoid driving yourself crazy when you're faced with having to reconquer a room you've already conquered, which I agree is a feature sorely needed.

Chaco
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Or when you have to do something like Deep Hold level 13, where you have to do the rooms over again - a lot.

The point being that it would save time.

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eytanz
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Yeah, it would really have to be a feature restricted to victory demos. If you allow reenactment of demos recorded by F5/F4 then you basically have a full-fledged save/restore feature.

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Someone Else
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agreed

Jatopian
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eytanz wrote:
Yeah, it would really have to be a feature restricted to victory demos. If you allow reenactment of demos recorded by F5/F4 then you basically have a full-fledged save/restore feature.

I think F4-F5 demos should be allowable also, because some rooms must be passed through multiple times (Oneiromancer's holds, anyone?). And there's no reason to restrict it that way, unless it's more difficult to code.
Of course, restricted is still better than not at all.
And really, it's not that practical as unlimited undo. Most persons won't save a demo every few moves, because really who has that kind of storage space? or time? or patience?

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[Last edited by Jatopian at 09-03-2006 02:56 AM : added some paragraphs :o]

eytanz
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It's not a question of unlimited undo. It's a full save/load system. If Caravel wanted DROD to have a full save/load system, they would have put one in, instead of the checkpoint system.

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apethedog
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I'm pretty much against this. Am I allowed to be against this? I'm pretty new after all.

DROD has to be hard, for me. It has to make you suffer. I understand demos from an architect's position (after all, it is nice to see how other people play your hold, and can give you ideas on areas to improve) but I'm kind of against anything that will make the game easier.

I didn't like the addition of save points either. And I abhor the backspace key. They make the game far too easy. The worst part is that I can't help but use them, even though they make conquering rooms so much less satisfying.

I remember having to remember exact positions where I could store my Beethro, and where he would be safe until the next tar respawn/roachling spawn. I remember struggling with the huge tar rooms in webfoot DROD. I still break into cold sweat thinking back of the hidden three tarmother room. I can still remember the exact first three positions where I had to 'park' my Beethro until the next tarbaby spawn because I had to redo that part of the game SO many times. But man, was I happy when I'd finally finished that room!

Eh... I'll be frank. I suffered a lot finishing webfoot DROD, and I think anyone should have to do the same, and consider it unfair that some get to use save points where I didn't. It's just unconscious jealousy on my part, I'm sure.

But, still. I re-iterate:

Against! Make the player sweat! I had to, damn it, and it made me tougher! Let's keep players tough!

I should quit rambling now...

Jeff_Ray...
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I'm against you. A load of people ask for checkpoints in holds. There's no reason why we don't need it. If you want it to be like Webfoot DROD, well, i think there's a feature to disable checkpoints. And set the undo key to something that's forgetful. Then... good luck!

>=)

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apethedog
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I'm not being very serious... Part of me does prefer webfoot DROD over the checkpointed, backspace-enabling current version. But I'll be damned if I won't use the backspace, and the checkpoints, when they are available.

However, I remember having to be a whole lot more careful when fighting monsters back when there was no backspace yet. I can't recall how many times backspace has saved my ass yet during the first levels of JtRTH I'm playing now (on level 14 currently) and especially during tar regrowth stages... whilst back then, I had to be extremely careful and forward-looking to prevent myself from getting stuck.

It's like with an education. No child will ever choose to be disciplined. No player will ever choose to not use checkpoints/backspace. But they won't learn as much either...

Chaco
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You do know you can turn checkpoints off in the settings menu, right?

It'll also make your player file smaller, since it won't have to save room states.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 09-03-2006 05:29 PM]

apethedog
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Yes, I know. I won't. That's my whole point. When they're there, I'll use them. I'm not a masochist. But the relief one feels when finally conquering a room is lesser when one has used checkpoints. I miss that. I liked it when there was no easy choice for me to take.

Syntax
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For the record, I completed JtRH without using backspace and I must admit that it made the game extremely intense in a greatly rewarding way. Now I just chase #1s but if DROD had backspace, and didn't have high scores, I'm not sure how much I would play.

Tahnan
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"I like suffering" is all well and good, but supposing I don't like suffering: is there any other reason not to allow a player to replay his-or-her own victory demos? Obviously not other people's; obviously not non-victory demos, lest it become a full save-and-restore; but why not allow a player to move on beyond an already-conquered room?

Syntax
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Simply because it shouldn't ever be necessary.

Jatopian
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Syntax wrote:
it shouldn't ever be necessary.

But it is, and we shouldn't punish the player for that.

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Hikari
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Syntax wrote:
Simply because it shouldn't ever be necessary.

What about in cases where the hold has a one-way passage of some sort, rooms that can be skipped accidentally but are required on one side of it, and irritatingly hard/tedious rooms on the other side?

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[Last edited by Hikari at 09-10-2006 07:57 PM]

Syntax
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Hikari wrote:

Syntax wrote:
Simply because it shouldn't ever be necessary.

What about in cases where the hold has a one-way passage of some sort, rooms that can be skipped accidentally but are required on one side of it, and irritatingly hard/tedious rooms on the other side?

Right... I understand. But that's poor design rather than a reason to implement a work-around. Same boil, different egg. Id rather not start a thread on level design but I think this is why the issue exists. But it shouldnt. Let's fix the problem rather than hack a solution. Just my opinion.

Hikari
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Syntax wrote:
Right... I understand. But that's poor design rather than a reason to implement a work-around. Same boil, different egg. Id rather not start a thread on level design but I think this is why the issue exists. But it shouldnt. Let's fix the problem rather than hack a solution. Just my opinion.

You seem to have missed my point.

While there aren't any released holds that I've run into this on so far, there are several beta holds that I've stalled out on because of rooms on the wrong side of a one-way passage that took a long time to manage to get through and that I don't want to do again, but that I have rooms that I missed on the other side of the passage that are required.

What I'm saying is that in cases of design like that, those of us who don't want to spend the time to re-solve those hard/tedious rooms when we restore back to before the passage really shouldn't have to. If there's an easy solution like allowing one's own victory demos to be reenacted, then, well... what's the drawback here? I'm afraid I'm not really seeing one.

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[Last edited by Hikari at 09-11-2006 07:09 AM]

Syntax
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You're right. I missed your point. I apologise and agree that this would be a good thing from the point of view of testing.

Tahnan
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Actually, that very thing happened to me in one of the War holds--I missed a room (possibly intentionally, planning to return to it later) and only when I reached the end did I find I went through a one-way room.

There have also been holds where you had to go through certain areas twice in order to get to certain secret points. The one that comes to mind is . Or places where you should have thought ahead to see that if you kill the tar mother/snake/etc. on this pass through the room, you'll never be able to get back through it.

(In other words: you did feed the cheese sandwich to the dog, right?)

In the end: Syntax may be right that this problem shouldn't exist; and yet it does. (One might also say, "We shouldn't need transparent tar, because it's only there to deal with rooms where there are trapdoors/walls under tar; better not to have those rooms." Well...maybe. But in the meantime, I'm not giving up my transparent tar.)

Syntax
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I agree it shouldn't exist but testing-wise I think it would make a good option