NiroZ
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im fairly sure that someone else would have thougth of this by now, but what i want to suggest is that there are rooms were your FOV (the area that you can see) is limited, like in an rts.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:27 AM]

MeckMeck GRE
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Hmm... sounds interesting... but it dosen´t fit to the perfect information ideology...

larrymurk
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Limited fov always looks cool but in most cases hurts gameplay.

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[Last edited by larrymurk at 02-12-2006 03:29 PM]

Banjooie
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Simple. Before you move, it's fully lit. Once you move, everything goes dark.

Full information at the beginning, but no knowledge of how things change otherwise. (Maybe doors would flash when orb lightning hit them, so you could see how big it was.)

eytanz
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That would maybe be possible if not for order-of-movement issues; those would be totally opaque in such a room. Also, it would cause trouble with the existing partial information aspects - neither stuff hidden under tar nor spiders would be at all fair under those circumstances (not that they're that great right now). Not to mention scripting...

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Banjooie
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If somebody uses an element in a really, really stupid way, we can just not play their hold, can't we?

I think 'hide things under tar while everything is dark and also spiders' is probably a sign that the architect does not have good ideas, and you can stop playing now.

Chaco
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I don't exactly see what puzzles would be enabled by not being able to see anything.

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eytanz
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Same here. If there were sensible uses for such a feature, then I agree that the fact that there are bad uses doesn't matter. But there really seems to be no point in this except to obscure information. And the "show it the first turn then hide it" won't lead to better puzzle design, it would just force players to take notes. And besides, it's full of problems. What happens if you have to stop the game mid-room and restore later? Will you be forced to restart it? What do you do if you forgot what is in a corner of the room? Do you have to restart the whole room just because of that?


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[Last edited by eytanz at 02-12-2006 06:41 PM]

AtkinsSJ
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I don't think there's actually anything this feature would add. You'd just get surprised by 'ambushes'. Maybe it would make mazes harder, but otherwise, what's the point?

Banjooie
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There's a point, it would make mazes /meaningful/, which wouldn't really hurt, no.

Chaco
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No, it'd just add even more "now where in the Eighth am I?!?" feeling. And for scenery/atmosphere. But that's about it.

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eytanz
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No, it won't. There's nothing meaningful about "wander around blindly in a maze". Especially not if you reveal the maze in turn 1 before you start moving, because then everyone will just take a screenshot of the maze early on and use it for guidance.

Note that all mazes will either still be solvable by choosing a wall and sticking with it, or else they will require mapping of some sort. Neither of these is a meaningful tactical puzzle.

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[Last edited by eytanz at 02-12-2006 11:03 PM]

Ezlo
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You can create mazes where sticking to a wall won't work.

Chaco
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True, but that's not the point. The point is that there's absolutely no reason to have dark rooms in the game, other than it looks cool. (which is not enough of a reason)

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StuartK
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It could be annoying when used as a puzzle element, though e.g. having a larger room split up into a number of mini-puzzles could be interesting. As a storytelling element though, atmosphere is of course very important, and light levels a valuable tool to that end. Also, dark doesn't have to mean completely black - there could be multiple light levels. Perhaps a dungeon (sorry hold) could get subtlely darker, the further down you go.

If it were used in gameplay it should be possible to make out what is in the dark areas e.g. a horde of roaches with eyes lit up, occasionally blinking. For purposes of scripted cutscenes (I'm guessing we're going to be getting cutscenes in TCB) I don't see a reason not to have completely dark areas.

Another tweak/possibility - creatures could simply be asleep if they're not in a lighted area. If there were a light switch (say in the middle of a room) this could then be used to 'activate' the room. Similar but different to invisibility potions.

I like the idea - despite the potential for abuse, I say it'd be an interesting tool in the hands of architects.

Chaco
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I think the current idea without some beneficial modifications is junk.

Your idea sounds pretty good, but couldn't we just memorize the positions of the monsters and then kill them?

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Ezlo
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Being able to dim the lights would be nice. About the darkest it should get is about as dark as the square of invisibility potion square. And then some torches which could cast shadows. Maybe we should start a thread with all the decorative pieces we want!

StuartK
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Chaco wrote:
Your idea sounds pretty good, but couldn't we just memorize the positions of the monsters and then kill them?

(if you're talking about the light switch)
Perhaps a light switch or killing a creature could activate a room. The advantage of the light switch being, you'd have light...

NiroZ
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hmmm, i was actually envisioning it with bethro having a circle around him, in which you could see what is happening. also, you could have it so that it is like fog of war, so that you could see the walls, doors, swiches, etc... but it won't show enemies.

i see that it could quite easly become abused by rookie hold makers, but it would be quite an interesting game element if used correctly.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:27 AM]

Chaco
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All we're saying is... the Fog of War and all of its variants don't actually do anything puzzly or even constructive. It would look cool, but ultimately, I think it would be a real waste of time for the developers to code in terms of the benefits received.

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Tim
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Chaco wrote:
All we're saying is... the Fog of War and all of its variants don't actually do anything puzzly or even constructive. It would look cool, but ultimately, I think it would be a real waste of time for the developers to code in terms of the benefits received.

I think you are missing something here. You might not have noticed it, but cool effects without any puzzly or constructive effects have more chances to be built in than any puzzle elements.

Look at JtRH: It has wall living bugs, zzzz's when you're sleeping, nice swirl effect when you swing. Light and shadow effects could be one as well.

Just don't expect it to be a puzzle element, that's all.

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xeipon
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You are likely to be eaten by a Grue.

I could see dark rooms that were dimmer -- Beethro could
still see everything, but it would be clear that things
were dark.

In these dark rooms, White Roaches would move to attack
him. Beethro isn't obligated to kill White Roaches
(AKA Grue).

When a light source is present, like a Firefly, the White
Roaches would flee from Beethro. As soon as all the light
sources are gone, though, he would be swarmed.

It might be that roach queens are 4 times as prolific in the
dark.

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Tahnan
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Tim wrote:
...cool effects without any puzzly or constructive effects have more chances to be built in than any puzzle elements.

Look at JtRH: It has wall living bugs, zzzz's when you're sleeping, nice swirl effect when you swing. Light and shadow effects could be one as well.

Just don't expect it to be a puzzle element, that's all.

But z's when you're sleeping and swirl effects on swinging don't have any effect on the gameplay. Having part of the room you're in hidden from you--which is the original suggestion here--would. That makes it inherently a puzzle element and not merely an effect without a puzzle element to it.

Ezlo
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I think we've moved from comletely dark rooms to dimmed rooms.

NiroZ
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Ezlo wrote:
I think we've moved from comletely dark rooms to dimmed rooms.

well i never was imagining for bethro to be stumbling around with the user going "where the heck am I", althougth i am not suggesting this as a mere 'nice looking' effect, it would definatly effect the rooms used.

anyway, it would definatly encourage exploreation.

in an rts(sorry that i keep reverting back to this), most of the map is black to start with. this creates tension and (for lack of a better word) excitment, as you have to scout out enterences, try and find out where everybody is, etc.

in DROD, it would make easy levels
(such as the simple "hunt down the mother 'roach" ones)
keep you on you toes, because you couldn't be 100% certain that there wasn't a roach sneaking up behind you,
(althought the fov would be large enougth to show it approaching well in advance(prob 6-8 squares in each direction))
, it would in no way make it more difficult to do, but would make you play more defensively, and actively explore the maps, therefore making them more interesting, thats all.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:28 AM]

Jeff_Ray...
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But not in all levels or the game would be frustrating.

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Chaco
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in DROD, it would make easy levels
(such as the simple "hunt down the mother 'roach" ones)
keep you on you toes, because you couldn't be 100% certain that there wasn't a roach sneaking up behind you,
(althought the fov would be large enougth to show it approaching well in advance(prob 6-8 squares in each direction))
, it would in no way make it more difficult to do, but would make you play more defensively, and actively explore the maps, therefore making them more interesting, thats all.

But if there are 6-8 squares in each direction, you have plenty of time to turn around and kill the roach. So that kinda defeats the "on your toes" bit. And we already play defensively without being in the dark (roach swarms, anybody?)

Also, blue doors make you actively explore the maps, because you have to find all the rooms (and solve them, of course).

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the point of this.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-14-2006 03:40 PM]

NiroZ
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Chaco wrote:

in DROD, it would make easy levels
(such as the simple "hunt down the mother 'roach" ones)
keep you on you toes, because you couldn't be 100% certain that there wasn't a roach sneaking up behind you,
(althought the fov would be large enougth to show it approaching well in advance(prob 6-8 squares in each direction))
, it would in no way make it more difficult to do, but would make you play more defensively, and actively explore the maps, therefore making them more interesting, thats all.

But if there are 6-8 squares in each direction, you have plenty of time to turn around and kill the roach. So that kinda defeats the "on your toes" bit. And we already play defensively without being in the dark (roach swarms, anybody?)

Also, blue doors make you actively explore the maps, because you have to find all the rooms (and solve them, of course).

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the point of this.

you failed to factor in the fact that you could be appoached from 2 sides.
also, i for one play very offencisively, and i very rarely die on those roach levels, infact, i usally complete said roach levels in under half a minute.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 05-29-2007 11:29 AM]

Chaco
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I'm good at them too, but I'll still take care of a roach behind me if I can see it. Also, there are things called walls that take care of them just fine too, when they're handy.

My viewpoint is that I don't see how this will improve the quality of the game. It's very arguable whether tar-covered mazes and spiders did either.

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[Last edited by Chaco at 02-15-2006 01:36 PM]

Tim
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NiroZ wrote:
in DROD, it would make easy levels
(such as the simple "hunt down the mother 'roach" ones)
keep you on you toes, because you couldn't be 100% certain that there wasn't a roach sneaking up behind you,
(althought the fov would be large enougth to show it approaching well in advance(prob 6-8 squares in each direction))

Oh, wait a minute. Is that all you want? Well, I can do that already in the current version of DROD. And there are already levels with rooms like these.

A nice idea, but we already have this.

-- Tim

PS. Nevertheless, the posts here with +1 have quite interesting ideas...

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[Last edited by Tim at 02-15-2006 02:06 PM]