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Sendy
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As you may know, I made a hold and lost it, so now I'm starting again from scratch, and I just have zero inspiration.

Last night I spent 3 hours making a room. One room. Just when I got it right, I just realized the most trivial solution that rendered the whole thing moot.

Is it me or are DROD puzzles deeply more complicated than other puzzles? I'm generally good at puzzle games and level design but sometimes I'm just completely intimidated by the tools of DROD and feel like I don't know how to use them effectively.

Does anyone else spend ages just coming up with nothing and cheap, broken puzzles sometimes? I know I can do better but this is just weird!

Sendy
01-07-2006 at 11:02 PM
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Chaco
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I don't blame you - it really takes a lot of playtesting to make sure there isn't a trivial solution somewhere that will break everything, while also making the puzzle fun and interesting.

My advice is to just not worry too much about it - find the easiest, least obstrusive way to fix it and move on.

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01-07-2006 at 11:04 PM
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Sendy
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I think the best way to start is by combining well known puzzle devices in new ways. I was trying to make a new and unique puzzle from scratch but I'm probably not experienced enough for that yet.

Sendy
01-07-2006 at 11:47 PM
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Chaco
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Yeah: for example, the classic "hit an orb and be assaulted by roaches in two directions, with only walls as cover" room.

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01-07-2006 at 11:50 PM
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Banjooie
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I don't know how people do the brilliant rooms they do, no. I think it's largely because DROD is sort of a game of math, and we have a lot of accomplished mathematicians here.

I know I was just designing what I felt was a really interesting room involving pushing a roach queen through a pachinko-type setup, spent about an hour on it, and then realized once I was finished, 'Wait a minute, ths isn't interesting at all!'

And it sucked.
01-08-2006 at 04:24 PM
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Tim
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Banjooie wrote:
I don't know how people do the brilliant rooms they do, no.
I must have misunderstood your sarcasm sometimes... Are you talking about the brilliant rooms in "The Conspicuously Tall Tower"? How did you do that?

More importantly, are you going to finish it?

-- Tim (who is very serious this time)

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01-08-2006 at 07:26 PM
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coppro
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Well, the thing is, a lot of good rooms start from a simple inspriation. A good example is the hold known as MetDROiD and its sequel, MetDROiD Prime (and for that matter, we can't wait for MetDROiD Prime 2: Echoes). These holds are based off of Metroid. Take this room, for example:



This may contian boss spoilers for the actual Metroid Prime game.
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01-08-2006 at 07:38 PM
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Banjooie
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Tim wrote:
Banjooie wrote:
I don't know how people do the brilliant rooms they do, no.
I must have misunderstood your sarcasm sometimes... Are you talking about the brilliant rooms in "The Conspicuously Tall Tower"? How did you do that?

More importantly, are you going to finish it?

-- Tim (who is very serious this time)

I...wait, people actually /liked/ that? I really do need to do more with that, then..
01-08-2006 at 07:41 PM
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Tim
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Banjooie wrote:
I...wait, people actually /liked/ that? I really do need to do more with that, then..
Well, I do. (I don't know about other people though.)

-- Tim

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01-08-2006 at 07:47 PM
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TripleM
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Banjooie wrote:
I don't know how people do the brilliant rooms they do, no. I think it's largely because DROD is sort of a game of math, and we have a lot of accomplished mathematicians here.

Believe me, being good at math doesn't seem to help me with designing rooms at all. Since AE came out, I think I've come up with about 2 or 3 rooms. Maybe in another 20 years I'll actually have enough to build a hold.
01-08-2006 at 08:36 PM
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Swivel
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Well, here are my ideas. Hopefully they're worthy.

1. I only do this idea every so often, but you can try it. I take a screen completely filled with wall, and I draw random rectangular spaces out of it. Spastically. Eventually some sort of pretty shape results, and I smooth it out and fill it with monsters and elements. Silly, I know, but it might help you.
2. There's always the puzzle that involves "monster cells." You can have individual monster containers with orbs that open them. This is commonly used, especially in rooms with brains. You need to be careful that this doesn't turn into an orb puzzle.
3. On the same note as the last one, have several unconnected areas in one room. Then, strategically place broken (not secret) walls between the chambers. Make it so that the chambers all have monsters, but so that the contents of one chamber might help in solving the other.
4. Have a mud/tar maze where if a player breaks a broken wall too early, they won't be able to complete the room.
5. Eye puzzles are somewhat interesting, but you can make them really cool by adding another monster to the mix.
6. There are many ways for a player to do something within a room, but a certain order MUST be followed for the player to defeat all of its monsters. This is useful with seeps on broken walls, unpassable eye combinations, and mimic placement.
7. Throw 1000 roaches in a single room and call it a day.
8. It's really hard for me to provide multiple solutions for a player. Most of the time, I want them to do it my way! If that's the case, any alternate solutions must be discarded. You might choose a different tactic: instead of designing a room with only one solution, design it from the beginning to have several. It's really painful to do this, though, because your audience can't fully appreciate your architrectural genius. In this case, you might want to have two rooms that are barely different but radically different in solving.
9. If you have a really really good plot line that's specific to the puzzles, it probably will work out well. Themed levels can work out too, as long as you don't get too specific.
10. Overall, there are two types of holds you can build:
a. Holds that require a mastery of DROD. These holds have rooms where you're trying to hide something from the player.
b. Learning holds. These holds have rooms where you're trying to have the player learn something.
11. Which type of DROD logic are you going to use? There are 4 main types:
a. Hack 'n' Slash. This element is unique to DROD, so don't totally discard it. It involved killing monsters, usually in large quantities. Remember, there is power in the crowd! For most of KDD Level 21, you needed to get your priorities straight. What are you going to kill first: the roach queens or the brains? You should note that holds that only use this aren't particularly memorable.
b. The Correct Order. With this element, there are many ways to solve a room. The player has to figure out the correct order. This is my favorite element. The most masterful use of this element might be in KDD, Level 11, 1W. Orb puzzles would be considered part of this element. DON'T USE TOO MANY ORB PUZZLES! Ahhh. I feel better.
c. Here's the most important element: DROD Theory, like any theory, takes simple concepts and expands them into something masterful. For example, you know that tar is cuttable on its edges. A 2 by 2 section of tar, therefore, would be uncuttable because it has no edges. You also might say that a rattlesnake can only be cut by its tail. Thus, if the tail is unexposed, the rattlesnake cannot killed normally.
d. The fourth and final element is timers. There's not much to say about timers. Timers cause Beethro to have to hurry to do something, either from the start of the room or from a certain player-controlled time (like hitting an orb or stepping on a fuse). Play DROD and you'll come across some good timers. Scripting is barely okay for timers, though, because it doesn't fit into a "visible concept" of DROD.
A mix of all of the above is good. Check out the Entrance room in The Final Confrontation; it's a great example.
12. Finally, be fluent in common forms. For example, an passage of tar with a width of two squares is a common form. Another form can be seen in KDD, Level 1, 1N1W. It involves four yellow doors that form a sort of lift bridge.

As you read though the list, you might think that I'm just typing every random whim that enters my mind. Of course not!

*carpal tunnel*


01-08-2006 at 10:50 PM
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Tim
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Have you read these pages already?

Architect's Toolkits

FAQ for New Architects

-- Tim


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01-08-2006 at 11:05 PM
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Sendy
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Thanks all for the input. I have read those pages by the way... Swivel, that list of ideas is pretty good considering you just spun it off. I tend to think along similar lines but I'm still pretty inexperienced. I'm going to give it another read if I ever feel a lack of inspiration, thanks!

The new puzzles that got lost in my corrupt hold are haunting me. I was just getting good and I remember making some good puzzles but I can't remember the details.

This will be the last post complaining about my dead hold. I promise :~(

Sendy
01-09-2006 at 01:23 AM
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