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File: Seeds Dungeon.hold (55 KB)
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One morning, when Beethro was just about to prepare his roach grill, a rich looking fellow headed for him. His name was mister Robert Seed, he orderd a fat roach and a small Seep. He said "I am not mean, I have a dungeon for you to clean"....

Beethro had many enemies... the Neather, the Slayer.. but this time its getting really horrible.

Tested by : LarryMurk ; Jeff_Ray ; vylycyn

Review :

"Lots of nicely done rooms. Nice story." - LarryMurk

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Registered: 10-06-2005
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Ooh. Looks fun.

*downloads*

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Sergenth
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 296
Registered: 05-04-2005
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The Entrance to Level 2 is unique, good fun, especially after the tedious gate puzzles that make up the first level. Good usage of Halph as an orbsmaster! Lots to consider (trapdoor path-finding, Halph's path-finding, roach population spread control, etc) and not too brain-racking which is the sweet spot in DROD room design for me.

After that, it gets tricky looking, so I'm taking a mandatory break lest I go crazy (I just completed JtRH in a marathon session yesterday).

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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Well, I didn't stall until Level 5, 1S; up to this point it's been quite clever and interesting (though I must say it was hard to avoid the temptation to skip to level 2...).

I may find myself posting over at the hint board for this one, but not any time too soon, at least.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Um... Seed's Dungeon is still Anyone Edit. I suggest you upload a version only conquerers can edit, MeckMeck.

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Sergenth
Level: Master Delver
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I've beaten all but two of the rooms in Level 2, and they've been very intriguing, especially the "City-inspired" one.

The "hub" room with the contained queen roaches still intimidates me and I'll definitley do that one last for level 2.

MeckMeck GRE
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Chaco wrote:
Um... Seed's Dungeon is still Anyone Edit. I suggest you upload a version only conquerers can edit, MeckMeck.

This is intentional.

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1979
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Sergenth wrote:
I've beaten all but two of the rooms in Level 2, and they've been very intriguing, especially the "City-inspired" one.

Hmmm... I was just playing this hold, and, imagine how surprised I was when I saw that room...

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Chaco
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:

Chaco wrote:
Um... Seed's Dungeon is still Anyone Edit. I suggest you upload a version only conquerers can edit, MeckMeck.

This is intentional.

Please explain. I mean, it's not a bad thing, I just want to know why you went with that decision. I'm intrigued.

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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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I....hate to say this, but I think the first two rooms have firmly convinced me this hold is not worth my time.

Highly original orb puzzles, but....really, really not worth the time/effort.

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

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Just a quick note for all of you who hate orb puzzles as much as I do. I commented to MeckMeck that the first level might not be terribly fun and although he didn't remove it, he did make a bit of a compromise. You can look in the editor and see that there are secret stairs to skip to the second level.

As much as I dislike orb puzzles, I did indeed play through the entire first level and found the puzzles were not too difficult. I really do recommend that players persevere. The hold has good scripting, story, and rooms.

MeckMeck, please PM me if you'd like me to delete this post.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
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Yeah, you only have to solve 2 orb puzzles, and they're not too bad.

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MeckMeck GRE
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Chaco wrote:

MeckMeck GRE wrote:

Chaco wrote:
Um... Seed's Dungeon is still Anyone Edit. I suggest you upload a version only conquerers can edit, MeckMeck.

This is intentional.

Please explain. I mean, it's not a bad thing, I just want to know why you went with that decision. I'm intrigued.

There are some players which may find Seeds Dungeon too hard to complete and get stuck at level 7 or 8. They might try to get help, but sometimes you already know what to do but do it not efficient enough. So if everything else fails, they can still take a look at the rest of the hold. (Of course, it could be abused to find secret rooms or skip levels without even trying them, but thats peoples OWN fault then)

Doom
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3335
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I see too many room ideas more or less directly from other holds. It just doesn't feel like a new hold when I'm playing variations of older holds half of the time. I understand that original ideas are hard to think of, but when I see an average of one or two room ideas from JtRH per level, it's just too much.

Maybe with some new tricks or something... But now they have about the same gameplay too.

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

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Note that in both cases, the custom images just hide secret/ not required rooms.

MeckMeck GRE
Level: Smitemaster
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I´m going to make the whole thing an end !

I just uploaded an update removing the "custom floor walls". Anyway ,I didnt see any reason why a hold shall be worse then AnEvent#1 because it hides two secret rooms behind custom floors. The rooms itself are now even easier to find then before... Also I changed the view/modify option to "You and masters" to avoid further trouble.

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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wallu wrote:
The reason is that it abuses the game. If those abusive custom floors are accepted to hide secret rooms, why they can't be used as an essential part of a puzzle. Therefore, I think that they should not be tolerated at all anywhere and without exceptions.

I disagree. To my mind, anything you can do in a hold is something you can do in a hold. You could, indeed, make them an essential part of a puzzle. But you shouldn't. Of course, I also think you shouldn't make wubbas an essential part of a puzzle, because they're annoying--but this is a matter of taste, I believe, and not law.

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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I think if an entire hold was built around funky image floors, and the player knew this going into it, then it could be reasonable (actually, Clayton did something like this and posted it on the private JtRH boards but he scrapped it because it wasn't that fair). But sticking in an image floor to fake people out in an otherwise normal hold is definitely something that would anger people. Like having invisible mimic or guard characters kill you when you stepped on certain squares...it's just not something you can account for.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

RoboBob3000
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1982
Registered: 10-23-2003
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I actually quite liked the first instance of "floor abuse". I mistakenly discovered it when Halph traversed it with ease.

I think such floors are ethical when there's something in a room that will get you to notice it, such as brained movement through it or maybe even roach egg spawning on it.

All in all, it might be better to use this style of hiding things for warp rooms that aren't marked secret. That way they're not neccessary to achieve 100% and aren't blocking anything that couldn't be accessed otherwise.

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Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

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I'm keeping my 3, and I'm keeping my -1 hold karma.

I'm sorry, but Bavato's dungeon overplayed the 'run around hitting switches while dodging roaches' thing, and the very fact you abused custom floors like that....yeaaaah, I'm going to meh there.

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

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Banjooie wrote:
I'm keeping my 3, and I'm keeping my -1 hold karma.

Me too. For completely different reasons though. This hold is very funny. Very interesting use of English. Also very funny because you can play some of the interesting rooms from other holds again.

The most funny thing is, if I had not played this hold, I would not have figured out that someone was "borrowing" my rooms, with the same solution.

I guess if one cannot make interesting rooms, then one is allowed to "borrow". Very funny. (NOT)

You could at least told me in advance...

-- Tim

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[Last edited by Tim at 12-01-2005 01:33 AM]

larrymurk
Level: Smitemaster

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I'd say people seem to be going a bit overboard on the negativity here.

Some issues/points:

1. Boring 1st level w/ orb puzzles & no monsters. I'd agree but this is how MeckMeck felt the dungeon should start. Also, the rooms aren't too hard and he even added a secret staircase to skip some of the rooms.

2. Which brings us to the issue of using drod images to hide rooms. I wouldn't generally recommend doing this but I don't think it is "illegal" (maybe caravel could express their opinion here). Mitigating factors are that they were only used to hide secret/ non required rooms. Also, he immediately removed these images upon hearing people's concerns.

3. Using Tim's room w/o asking permission. In testing I pointed out that a room looked very much like one from Tim's CofQ and I thought he might credit Tim. Indeed MeckMeck added a dialog in that room creditting Tim. Yes, contacting Tim would have been appropriate.

4. And who is this MeckMeck guy? Oh, just someone who has created several excellent holds. Here he puts a good effort into creating another hold for everyone to enjoy with no bad intentions and people seem to be taking everything negatively. Obviously everyone has a right to their opinions, but many of the negative comments don't seem very thoughtful. (And I do appreciate wallu saying he'd re-evaluate the hold since the images were removed.)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
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larrymurk wrote:
2. Which brings us to the issue of using drod images to hide rooms. I wouldn't generally recommend doing this but I don't think it is "illegal" (maybe caravel could express their opinion here).

When we were discussing the hold Clayton made on the private board, this issue came up. Schik seemed to think that it could be an issue, and if one were to want to release a hold with copyrighted images (such as those that come from DROD) then one would have to get permission from Caravel. There is an image floor in The Choice, for example, but Erik obviously gave permission from that since it was an SS hold.

Personally I think it's likely that permission would be granted so long as it was you taking an image of something you built yourself, instead of someone else's hold (and especially instead of an official hold). But it would probably be worth finding out once and for all what the official stance is, probably from Erik.

And yeah, I'd suggest again that any image floors like this not be thrown randomly into just any hold, but instead have the hold be built around it, so that people can choose whether or not to play it and not be unpleasantly surprised.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
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larrymurk wrote:
4. And who is this MeckMeck guy? Oh, just someone who has created several excellent holds. Here he puts a good effort into creating another hold for everyone to enjoy with no bad intentions and people seem to be taking everything negatively. Obviously everyone has a right to their opinions, but many of the negative comments don't seem very thoughtful. (And I do appreciate wallu saying he'd re-evaluate the hold since the images were removed.)

I'm sorry, you can make a billion good holds, but ripping off Agaricus (I'm sure you all noticed the Bavato-style Room), Tim, using custom floors for really BS stuff, starting the hold off with two really irritating puzzles, and stealing stuff from Claythro's tower, all in one go?

Yeah, no.

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 962
Registered: 05-16-2005
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Well, banjooie: i like orb puzzles. And this is the best hold i've ever played, and just being an intermediate.

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MeckMeck GRE
Level: Smitemaster
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Banjooie wrote:

I'm sorry, you can make a billion good holds, but ripping off Agaricus (I'm sure you all noticed the Bavato-style Room), Tim, using custom floors for really BS stuff, starting the hold off with two really irritating puzzles, and stealing stuff from Claythro's tower, all in one go?

Yeah, no.

1st : I´m guilty copying Tims puzzle. I´ll remove it with the next update
2nd : It wasnt my intention to rip off Bravatos dugeon. There are quite a few other rooms using a queen+yellow door combination that way in other holds.
3rd : BS stuff ? Also, I didn´t think that people go nuts because of another kind of secret wall.
4th : Two really irritating puzzles ? Please tell me which ! Also there are enough other holds having irritating puzzles nobody complains about.
5th : How can I be able to steal stuff from a hold I never really played ? The only room of Claythro tower I ever saw was the entrance. I never copied anything from Claythro tower.
6th : Its ok if you complain about that some rooms look similar to rooms of other holds, but then you can complain about many holds.
7th : I dont make very good holds but there is indeed a tendency that my holds were judged quite critical and every small thing makes some people dooming the hold. The negative aspects of my hold were taken tonce as strong as the positive aspects (for most other holds, the contary works... e.g. for "How to keep an idiot busy" but thats another story.)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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I think that things are getting a little out of hand here. Okay, yes, MeckMeck "took" one of Tim's rooms...in the version of Seeds that I have, it is at least attributed correctly. MeckMeck, if Tim wants you to remove it, then please do so, but if he doesn't, then I don't think you have to. But I would put the attribution in a scroll near the entrance instead of using scripting at the end, so that people know right away.

As for "copying" rooms from Bavato's and Claythro Tower...as MeckMeck said, he's never played CT. In any case, as the number of holds increases, it gets harder and harder to come up with truly unique ideas. There was some hold I played recently (maybe it was this one?) where there was a long queen chase just like the "Master Intellect" room from KDD. It was obvious to me that it was inspired by that room, but it was still different enough to be its own puzzle (it had more arrows and no serpent, and you didn't have to trap the queen in its own babies, but you did have to chase it around a lot).

MeckMeck, now you're finding out that private testing can be a double-edged sword. If you don't have that many testers, then you're not going to get a wide variety of opinions, and many of these concerns could have been fixed if more people had played it or if had even been a public test. Honestly, I think that once you removed the image rooms and take care of that room of Tim's to his satisfaction, you're done. It's your hold, and if you like it, that's the most important thing. You can't expect everyone to like it equally, and you'll never be able to please everyone. Look at the thread on KDD level 15 on the General board right now...a few people that absolutely hated that level and then someone pipes up and says that it was one of their favorites. The best thing you can do is to make the rooms that might be very annoying to people secret or optional, but if that doesn't fit in with your vision...just leave it, and they can play something else. Personally I don't think someone should really rate a hold until they've played it all the way through, although at least that is reversible, unlike karma.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. Do what you will.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Tim
Level: Smitemaster

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Oneiromancer wrote:
I think that things are getting a little out of hand here. Okay, yes, MeckMeck "took" one of Tim's rooms...in the version of Seeds that I have, it is at least attributed correctly. MeckMeck, if Tim wants you to remove it, then please do so, but if he doesn't, then I don't think you have to. But I would put the attribution in a scroll near the entrance instead of using scripting at the end, so that people know right away.

Before everything is going out of hand, I just wanted to say that I have absolutely no problems with it if you decides not to remove it. It's not the first time people do that anyway, so I never really mind. What I do mind is that I have to figure that out after it had been put onto Holds. If I saw this on Architecture, I could give you an alternative room for this room with the same idea.

MeckMeck, I can still give you an alternative room to play if you want, but if you want to keep the current room I will not have any problem with it. I just hope that you could write my name with a capital T (I hope it's not too much to ask) . And I hope that in the future, you could be a little more considerate, by at least informing people if you are going to use a room that has the same solution as the original one.

Personally I don't think someone should really rate a hold until they've played it all the way through, although at least that is reversible, unlike karma.

Even though I do not mind people using my rooms, it (Edit: I mean the not informing me part) did made me angry. I felt a lot better after giving a -1 karma. I still think it's a valid reason to give a hold a bad karma.

To my other point, the reason I gave a low score is (and I'm just repeating my other post):
* I do not expect - after testing - a story hold with really horrible English dialogues. Ich habe keine Probleme when Sie das ganze Hold im Deutsch machen, but the current dialogues are funny in a very unintentional way.
* A lack of originality. It's not his fault, but I find this hold just too often too repetitive. And it feels like he's trying very hard to create his own style, but ends up with rooms that like other rooms in other holds, but without the fun part of it. (Sorry that I can't say it better, but fun is something that is hard to describe.) Note that this is purely personal, and other people can give a higher score if they want to.
* I was a bit sad at that moment, so I might give a little more points because this is sorted out now.

I like MeckMeck's holds, I've even tested some of them. I've had high hopes for this, and I'm sure his next one will be a lot better.

-- Tim

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[Last edited by Tim at 12-04-2005 03:21 AM]

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

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I finished this hold (the original version) while I was away and I thought it was enjoyable.

The custom floors I didn't mind because
a) Halph wandered through one, so I knew that they were there (and that one, I think, had the wrong floor colour?)
b) I was only looking once I had completed the hold and was going for the secrets.
c) There are only two and the second one was in a semi-obvious place. (well, maybe.. I did think that there might have been a "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" thing.)

I liked the story, although it would be better with better English.

Tim's room - it was credited so I didn't mind too much although
a) too similar
b) seen it too recently in Perfection :/

Although there were some similar themes, I didn't get a strong feeling that any of the other rooms were copied from other holds. Claiming that the first level is ripping off Bavato is unfair - Bavato's doesn't have a monopoly on door and orb rooms. Also, I would have liked to have dragged Halph along to Bavato's - that would have scared him out of dungeons.

Level 1: First and second rooms had me stumped for a bit. The others were fairly easy
Level 2-4: Not too tricky, but not too bad.
Level 5: I can agree with claims of unoriginality here - the golem tricks were things I'd seen before. I'm not a big fan of golems. However, I did like the secret room.
Level 6: I am a big fan of snakes. I really liked the Entrance. 1N is a bit passe and 1N2E is too similar to the room in Puzzlebox. The central rooms and 1S1W were good, and the secret room was one of the better instances of its type that I've seen.
Level 7: I liked the individual tar/mud rooms better than the ones where they were combined. Some interesting long rooms there.
Level 8: I'm pretty sure I did 1W in an unintended way, but I couldn't see a way to use the golems as tar blockers. 1E is a much more interesting golem room than those on level 5. 1N was a cool room too, as was 1S. This is my favourite level.
Level 9: The Entrance was cool and I liked 1S (that was probably because I could actually solve the puzzles )

In short: early levels ok, later levels better.

Tahnan
Level: Smitemaster

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Now that I've finished it...

I have to agree that the dialogue was more than a little stilted. I play more for puzzles and less for plot, but it did stand out.

I was very much enjoying this for the first four levels or so; there were some things that I felt were quite original (4-1S1W, for instance). I disliked 5-1S (go ahead, ask me what I think of puzzles that rely on the order of monster placement); the rest of that level was, well, all right, though like Rabscuttle I don't really like rock golems.

Level six was OK, though I found the entrance to be a lot of guesswork (predicting snake movement is bad enough; snakes with decoys is like throwing darts).

Level seven, however, drove me nuts (and not entirely in a good way). There's a real scarcity of checkpoints in some of these rooms, and it's so easy to back yourself into a corner. 1N2E took me a while; 2W wasn't entirely obvious...but 1N2W took me ages, and I often found myself repeating the same series of moves, over and over, because I'd die and find myself set back a couple of hundred moves or more.

I think I agree with Rabscuttle about level 8; I liked 1S, and even with golems, 1N was at least an interesting variation on the theme. 1W took me some time to get into the swing of--and I'm not positive I solved it "correctly" in the end--and again, I though that a certain lack of checkpoints was its main problem.

I ended up rating the hold a little lower than I might have otherwise, because while I did, I think, enjoy it overall, I hated how often I had to redo all my work after a single misstep.