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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Rodents of unusual size (One level hold on lemmings)
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Red-XIII
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File: Rodents of unusual size.hold (137.3 KB)
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icon Rodents of unusual size (+8)  
Hello guys!

Ever since I played "Lemming Beach" I fell in love with these elements with lots of puzzle potential so I decided to build a single level about them exploring all the interactions with other elements.

Here's some general info:

- For the first time, I wanted to do an artwork, you can see it from the editor. I'd like your opinion on how it came out; also if you have suggestions (since in real life I'm bad at drawing) please go ahed.
- I also wanted to include 2 cheap tricks, one involving a quirk about lemmings and another simple one; I'd also like your sincere opinion about these rooms (I'm sure you'll recognize them).
- In the entrance I tried to summarize all the basic movements of lemmings; if I forgot something or made english mistakes I'd like to fix them right away.
- Last but not least, I'm confident in saying that this is a pretty hard hold but your opinion is better than mine so I'll wait for your comments about this.

I really hope you'll enjoy this :)

HOLD PROMOTED!
Forum topic:


http://forum.caravelgames.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=41588

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 10-16-2016 09:46 PM]
10-10-2014 at 11:33 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
Like always, you
Need to make this anyone edit.

This is essential when you make updates and your public testers, not to mention the HAs, have to sprawl through level after level to get to one new level.

Edit: I apologize for the red text. Edited to plain.

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[Last edited by azb at 10-11-2014 10:08 AM]
10-11-2014 at 01:38 AM
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Jeff_Ray...
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
I'm sorry, I don't think I can playtest this hold.

I don't think it exists.

Click here to view the secret text


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10-11-2014 at 03:17 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
azb: That's true in general, but Red XIII made it clear that this hold has only one level and you can get to any room, so the normal reason doesn't apply. That said, I don't buy the "copyright reasons" explanation either. Caravel have given permission for TSS users to include these assets in their holds. Even if Red made the hold "anyone edit", the assets still belong to Caravel and someone couldn't just take them out of the hold and use them in ways Caravel hadn't permitted.

Anyway, comments on the hold itself. I'll do this one room at a time so I don't forget anything.

Intro text: spelling: "cutest"
Level title: "Lemmingland" should be one word
Entrance: spelling on fifth scroll: "ahead"
The first puzzle, with the three straight-tailed lemmings, depends on knowing that lemmings are required monsters for dropping a green door, but we're not told this until the end of the room.
"Baby lemmings, mimic" scroll: the name of the creature type if you right-click is "Baby Lemming (mimic)" punctuated thus. However, this is unnecessarily confusing. TSS itself refers to them just as "blue lemmings" and the fegundo type as "baby lemmings".
The scroll should spell out that blue lemmings don't move at all if a diagonal move is blocked, since this is different from mimics.
"Baby lemmings, fegundo": again, just call them "baby lemmings". They move in the direction the player is facing, whether or not you currently have a sword.

2N: What's the point of the southern pressure plate and doors?

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 10-11-2014 09:46 PM]
10-11-2014 at 09:35 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
Nuntar wrote:
That said, I don't buy the "copyright reasons" explanation either. Caravel have given permission for TSS users to include these assets in their holds. Even if Red made the hold "anyone edit", the assets still belong to Caravel and someone couldn't just take them out of the hold and use them in ways Caravel hadn't permitted.


2N: What's the point of the southern pressure plate and doors?

About "copyright reasons" I thought the exact opposite thing, if this is anyone edit someone could copy the hold, delete the level but use the scripted characters, am I right? If this is wrong and caravel team allows me to put anyone edit I'm glad to do it on the next update!

2N: If there are no doors you could simply kill the mud babies on the spikes while the intended solution doesn't involve this.

Also, thanks for the help with lemmings description!

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10-11-2014 at 10:05 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
Okay, I thought it might have been copyright but I wasn't totally sure. Thanks for informing me.

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10-11-2014 at 10:50 PM
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larrymurk
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
room comments.
secreted to save space.

Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by larrymurk at 10-21-2014 12:12 AM]
10-20-2014 at 11:44 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
larrymurk wrote:
Click here to view the secret text

Wow you broke so many rooms!
Let's start with some hints for the rooms you couldn't solve:
Click here to view the secret text


Here's the rooms that I have modified:

1N1W: That was unintended, now it should be fixed.
3N1E: Wow can't believe I missed that. I fixed it but I had to remove the challenge, it should still be a good room.
3N1W: Fixed.

Random things:
Click here to view the secret text


Thank you very much for testing and finding all these US!


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10-21-2014 at 05:59 PM
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larrymurk
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
See my responses below.
Also, I think it'd help testing if you would make the hold "anyone edit". Making a hold anyone edit doesn't give them the right to break any copyright so I'm not sure what you are concerned about.

Red-XIII wrote:

6N2W: I can't see how you broke this room :/ could you send me a demo?
> step on temp split token. wait a while. kill lemmings (stepping on pps). press tab. beethro walks to edge of screen and watches temp projection clear room.

3N2W:
Click here to view the secret text

> no. lemming hits powder keg. beethro kills remaining ee. beethro steps on power token. lead fegundo to pp.


1N2E: Hope this isn't too frustating :/
> I just haven't had time to look at at this room yet.

[Last edited by larrymurk at 10-21-2014 10:45 PM]
10-21-2014 at 10:36 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Sure, you can make the hold Anyone Edit.

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11-13-2014 at 10:34 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Oh, thanks for the answer!
I quickly modified editing privileges, now it's anyone edit.
I also fixed (maybe) a US in 3N2W.
No idea how to fix the US in 6N2W, any help is appreciated.

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11-13-2014 at 11:38 PM
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komachi
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+3)  
Red-XIII wrote:
No idea how to fix the US in 6N2W, any help is appreciated.

I don't know how it's supposed to complete the room, but using arrows in the yellow doors and disable them with a plate after clean the room could work?

[Last edited by komachi at 11-14-2014 12:53 PM]
11-14-2014 at 12:44 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
*BUMP*

I can't believe that more than 1 year passed, but I won't annoy you with my boring private stuff, what matters is that now inspiration came back and I started building again!

First of all, komachi, sorry for the super late response, I tried your suggestion but it didn't work; but with it I got a new idea for that room, so thank you!

What's new:

- 4N2E / 4N1E / 4N / 4N1W / 4N4W / 3N4W / 3N5W / 3N3W / 2N4W /1N4W are the new rooms.
- I totally modified 9N1W
- I modified a bit 6N2W
- Probably fixed all US's in the old rooms

Things to do:

- In 1N1E / 1W / 3N5W there are challenges that need to be scripted, I got slightly (very slightly) better in scripting so I'll try in the next week to script these. If I cannot do it, I'll gladly give all my mod points to whoever will be nice to help me.
- Build last room
- Find US's

I tried my best to prevent US's, but I'm sure that some rooms have them and I can't find them, so please help me with that :~(

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04-09-2016 at 05:17 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
Last room has been completed!

Here's the update:

- 4N5W is completed. I believe it's the hardest room of the hold

- I removed the challenge in 1N1E, I realized that only 1 solution existed.

- I tried to script the challenge myself in 3N5W (you can see it in the editor) but it doesn't work, could you tell me why this happen?

- It appears that my inability in scripting persist, so 1W and 3N5W challenges are beyond my skills, please help me.

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04-16-2016 at 12:56 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+4)  
3N5W: What you've told it to do is loop again when the fegundo lemming is on the door, set the fail variable when not, the reverse of what you want. Changing the "Wait for entity type" to a "Wait while entity type" should fix this.

However, there's no need to loop at all -- simply this will work:
  Set var "FegLem" = 0
  Wait for entity type Baby Lemming (fegundo),15,5,15,15
  Set var "FegLem" = 1


1W: Fairly easy because the PP in question closes a door, and nothing else opens it, so we just need to check whether the door is still open when the room is cleared.
  Wait while entity Monster 0,0,37,31
  If ... 
        Wait for door to Open,35,15
     Challenge completed (name)
  If End
  End


Why are both challenges on/behind green doors? In both cases, I don't see any reason for them to be -- the description of the challenge does not reveal anything about the room solution. (This applies to 5N3W as well.)

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 04-16-2016 02:02 PM]
04-16-2016 at 01:30 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Nuntar wrote:
1W: Fairly easy because the PP in question closes a door, and nothing else opens it, so we just need to check whether the door is still open when the room is cleared.
  Wait while entity Monster 0,0,37,31
  If ... 
        Wait for door to Open,35,15
     Challenge completed (name)


Why are both challenges on/behind green doors? In both cases, I don't see any reason for them to be -- the description of the challenge does not reveal anything about the room solution. (This applies to 5N3W as well.)

Thank you very much, 3N5W works perfectly, 1W works fine but I had to add a "wait for clean room" as second command.

I put the scrolls under green door because I thought it would spoil or give hints about the easier solution, but it appears I was wrong; I believe these are things than only playtesters can know for sure. Anyway, I changed it, now you can view those scrolls from the beginning.

I think 5N3W challenge scroll must stay under green door, right?

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04-16-2016 at 01:58 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
I don't think so, because if the keg is there, it's obvious that it's meant to be a tool for the solution :)

I forgot -- at the end of the 1W script, you must put If End then End so that the script stops once the room is solved and the challenge awarded or not. Otherwise the player can clear the room any old how, walk out and come back in, and be awarded the challenge without having earned it.

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04-16-2016 at 02:02 PM
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Red-XIII
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Nuntar wrote:
I don't think so, because if the keg is there, it's obvious that it's meant to be a tool for the solution :)

I forgot -- at the end of the 1W script, you must put If End then End so that the script stops once the room is solved and the challenge awarded or not. Otherwise the player can clear the room any old how, walk out and come back in, and be awarded the challenge without having earned it.

Well, that's not necessarily true, but in this case it is, so I think you are right. I changed that scroll too.

By the way, I added "wait for clear room" because lemmings are not monsters, so I got awarded as soon as the snake died.

Now it should work fine.

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04-16-2016 at 02:22 PM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Minor update:

I added a seeding beacon in 2N3W and modified some scrolls.

Now it only needs playtesting, speaking of wich, how hard do you consider this hold?

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-23-2016 02:18 PM]
04-23-2016 at 02:17 PM
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File: Rodents of unusual size.demo (11.5 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
Red-XIII wrote: speaking of wich, how hard do you consider this hold?

I've only play tested a small fraction of it, but so far it's quite hard. I'm guessing it will end up a good 8 brains in the end. I've attached demos for the rooms I've completed so far and will try to continue on with the remaining holds later this week.

Comments on individual rooms:
Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by Insoluble at 04-26-2016 07:16 AM]
04-26-2016 at 07:13 AM
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Red-XIII
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
First of all, thanks for playing!

Click here to view the secret text


Just to clarify, I don't play most of my rooms since last year, so I even forgot the solution I had in mind for some of them, but they are all possible.

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-26-2016 06:10 PM]
04-26-2016 at 06:08 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Red-XIII wrote: I don't think I can modify the lemming scripting since it's a Caravel script, right?
(Topic link) "Registered TSS users may use or modify these assets for use in their personal DROD holds."

Insoluble's suggested modification won't work. The correct modification is to put "Label End" at the very end of the (default) script, then change "End" (line 3) to "Go to End".

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 04-26-2016 07:58 PM]
04-26-2016 at 07:55 PM
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komachi
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File: Rodents of unusual size.demo (9.7 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
Step by step, I'm trying to solve every room.
Here are the comments of the rooms that I solved

Click here to view the secret text

About difficulty, I would say right now 7-7,5. Great job :thumbsup
04-28-2016 at 08:40 PM
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LeoS
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File: Rodents of unusual size LeoS.demo (11.1 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
I posted about this in another thread a couple of days ago and since then all of a sudden these lemmings make sense again! I made quite a bit of progress so I'd like to add what comments I can: Rooms in red I haven't tried yet.

Click here to view the secret text


Definitely a fun hold and pretty hard but for me it seemed to get easier as I explored more rooms and lemming mechanics. Demos and some near misses attached.
04-28-2016 at 10:02 PM
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Red-XIII
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Wow, all of you found lots of unintended solutions, some of them are not trivial at all, so I decided to add some challenges involving my original solutions, since they are more finicky. Other rooms were completely broken, but maybe now they are ok.

What's new:

Click here to view the secret text


From your comments about lemming ability to activate tokens I'm starting to think that I'll leave it as it is. Afterall, in the final scroll in Entrance I wrote that lemming have abilities that monsters do not possess.

To LeoS, in 1E the lemming is a red herring, you used the solution I had in mind. 2N1E, cool solution, and yes, the caber is optional but some other players might find it good to move golem corpses.

Again to LeoS, here's some hints (if you want) about some rooms you had trouble with, they are not super spoilerish but they should push you in the right direction:
Click here to view the secret text


Thank you all for finding these US and for your demos :thumbsup

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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 04-29-2016 10:54 AM]
04-29-2016 at 10:51 AM
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komachi
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File: Rodents of unusual size_new.demo (6.6 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+1)  
Things are getting very hard for me :~(. I solved three rooms and currently working in 4N 2E.
Click here to view the secret text

I tried and almost did it (think)
Click here to view the secret text

04-30-2016 at 07:40 PM
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Red-XIII
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To komachi:

Click here to view the secret text
04-30-2016 at 08:32 PM
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komachi
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File: Rodents of unusual size_4N2E1E4N4W.demo (6.5 KB)
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (0)  
Thanks for the hints. I cleaned the two rooms and 1E. The room at 4N 4W was pretty good. I didn't use everything in both rooms but I suppose I did them in the intended way.
Click here to view the secret text

05-03-2016 at 03:48 PM
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Red-XIII
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komachi wrote:

Click here to view the secret text

Click here to view the secret text


I also scripted the challenge in 1N3W, it looks like it was easier than I thought.

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05-03-2016 at 05:40 PM
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Chaco
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icon Re: Rodents of unusual size (+2)  
I haven't finished playing the hold, but here's some highly general comments about many rooms together:

- There's generally a really high orb / pressure plate / yellow door count in most of the rooms. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it means that it takes some mental overhead to keep track of everything. In some rooms it might be nice to pair doors and orbs with colored lighting, or mark force arrows that can be turned off with different floor types.

- Similarly, pressure plates that are auto-fail states (that e.g. close doors to prevent exiting the room) should be marked, either with lighting or by making them multi-use. For example, the pressure plates at (12, 11) in 4N2E and (16, 16) in 1N1E could easily be made multi-use without changing anything about the puzzle.

- There seem to be several rooms that depend on the lemming's ability to:

Click here to view the secret text


- There's a strong indication that there's a secret room in 1W, but it's a bit unfair that you have to pick a random square to exit from 2W to 1W into there; there's been an unofficial unwritten rule that if there's no raft or solid ground on a room edge, then there's no way into the room beyond that edge. You could use a clue like a force arrow or a pair of bushes to suggest that that particular room edge square is special.

- The secret wall in 4N4W is nearly invisible since it's an interior corner. I think you could make the wall to the right of it also a secret wall to make it a bit easier to spot.

- Sometimes movement order is important; I'm thinking about rooms like 2N2E, 3N2E and 3N3W in particular. It might be polite to specifically point out the movement order in some of these rooms (and some unrelated rooms) to help remind the player ahead of time that it's going to matter.

Anyway, these rooms are pretty solid! The level as a whole is pretty thorough, covering many different topics and combinations of elements. Here's my attached demos so far; maybe they might be of some use.

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05-05-2016 at 05:37 PM
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