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Trickster
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icon Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (+1)  
The room clear sound doesn't occur when you undo/redo a room clearing. This didn't used to be a big deal (though it was minor), but with UU it's pretty disorienting to have it absent. Takes a few seconds to figure out if you actually cleared the room or just messed things up. This can happen in cases where you need to undo because you didn't solve the part of the puzzle that allows you to leave the room (noticed initially in TH:4W).

I think the room clear sound should happen whenever the room is cleared (whenever room color goes from red/pink to green), provided it had not been previously cleared (i.e. new monsters from tarstuff would only reset the sound if when you entered the room the most recent time it was not already clear).

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06-24-2014 at 07:24 PM
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bwross
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (+1)  
That looks like it explains something I saw today. I finished a room where the clear was done with a bomb explosion and didn't hear the signal, so I tried single undo/redo a few times and still got no confirmation, so I was thinking that maybe there was a sound bug there. I checked my demo and going back and forth over the clear point seemed to confirm that. So I made a note to check the bug forum and found this post. Which made me go back for a third time... this time I listened very carefully the first time and heard it, so I'm assuming that I missed it the first time the previous two.
06-24-2014 at 11:09 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
I agree this can be confusing. We used to have it the other way. I'm not sure whether we should change this back because historically we had a bunch of players here that said multiple clear sounds were too annoying when undoing and redoing the clear move. Maybe we can have some heuristic that provides a good middle ground?

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06-25-2014 at 06:27 PM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
Perhaps if the room is cleared, make it so that at least 5 moves must be made before the sound will play again? Then if you undo/redo the clearing move you won't hear it again, but if you do it multiple times (or undo/redo multiple moves), you will.
06-26-2014 at 06:00 AM
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bwross
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
That won't help people with less than five undo if they want to trigger the check signal. It sounds to me like this is going to just affect a small number of people... other than optimizers, who's going to make a habit of undo/redoing over the clear repeatedly? Most of us just head for the exit, and undo a clear with the intent of hearing it (see above... happened again today, remembered it doesn't work). There are a few rooms where I can see wanting to do a clear a different way because it blocks egress, but they're not common.
06-26-2014 at 07:58 AM
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Someone Else
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
I meant 5 moves total. So if you make a move, undo it, make a move, undo it, then do that three more times, you'd hear it again.
06-26-2014 at 01:00 PM
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bwross
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
Blech, that's just sounding ridiculous. You might as well make it occur randomly on repetitions then, because if I'm going to be in a situation where I'm looking for something that doesn't occur every time, I'm going to have to listen for it every time, because there's no way to see what this hidden count is. If I'm running sample sizes, I'd rather have every time be a chance for a positive than every nth (where until you've got a positive you're never entirely sure what mod number you're on... ah, my good friend the negative binomial distribution).

How about this... if this is only a problem to people that are likely to be using UU, then only apply the muffling to people using UU. And people that use less get it every time.
06-26-2014 at 09:59 PM
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Jatopian
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (-2)  
As a UU user, I do not want to hear it every time. There's a clear visual signal on the minimap; let Trickster look for that. Maybe Beethro could change expression as if he were saying "clear" or laughing and just not play the sound.

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06-26-2014 at 10:02 PM
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bwross
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (+1)  
quote:
Jatopian wrote:
As a UU user, I do not want to hear it every time. There's a clear visual unreliable and sometimes impossible to tell signal on the minimap; let Trickster look hope for that.


FTFY.

(People do like to say "just look at the minimap"... but I've been fooled too many times. It is simply not good enough as it currently stands.)


06-27-2014 at 03:21 AM
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Trickster
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
Well, why not make this an option for the player, then?

The inability to tell when I've completed a room correctly has been pretty bothersome for me in TSS.

Let's not forget that if you back up one step, dialog (which is waaaay more invasive than a quick 'ha') repeats. Like, the entire paragraph of sound text. I can't imagine why someone would ever need to undo/redo the room clear move over and over again, but if you don't want the sound, having an option to silence it should satisfy that desire.

The minimap being confusing and unclear is a separate issue, but even if it were obvious, I would definitely prefer keeping the sound notification to not having it.

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[Last edited by Trickster at 06-29-2014 09:03 PM]
06-29-2014 at 08:51 PM
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Trickster
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (+2)  
quote:
Jatopian wrote:
"let Trickster look for that"

I need to say something now.

Please don't turn my requests or comments personal like this. You are the only person on the forum who does this to me, it's been going on for several years, and I haven't seen you do it to anyone else (but I rarely watch threads I don't post on). I don't know what your deal is with me, but please make an effort to not do this. Talking about me instead of what I suggested makes it sound like the discussion is Trickster vs. Everyone Else. It isn't nice, it isn't accurate, and it isn't fair.

I realize I'm not the most emotionally stable member of the forum, and so my perception may be heavily skewed. I sincerely apologize if it seems like I'm making something out of nothing. But please try not to do this anymore.

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06-29-2014 at 09:30 PM
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Tahnan
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
quote:
bwross wrote:
quote:
Jatopian wrote:
As a UU user, I do not want to hear it every time. There's a clear visual unreliable and sometimes impossible to tell signal on the minimap; let Trickster look hope for that.


FTFY.

(People do like to say "just look at the minimap"... but I've been fooled too many times. It is simply not good enough as it currently stands.)




Very true. How many hot tiles are there in the room? Or doors, or really pretty much anything that isn't just open floor? The minimap only goes so far. (That doesn't mean that there definitely should be a sound, just that "there's a minimap" isn't really an argument against one.)
06-30-2014 at 01:04 AM
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TripleM
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
Regardless of whether there should be an option to disable it, having the sound should surely be the default. There are lots of things that you could do that may result in annoyances - for example, placing a decoy to hit an orb repeatedly - but the aim of these sounds is to signal something has happened, and in this case something that happens very rarely - so a lack of sound has to be considered the wrong behaviour.
06-30-2014 at 06:46 AM
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Jacob
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
I don't see a problem with having the sound for every instance of room completion (no matter how many times a player uses undo, or even if the room has become uncleared again by the production of a tarbaby for example).

It is an important clue to the roomstate, and there are few things more annoying than prematurely leaving a room that isn't actually cleared (UU won't get you out of that situation).

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06-30-2014 at 06:44 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
I'm fine with changing our handling so the clear sound replays whenever you undo back to having the room uncleared, and then clear it again. I think the part that's vague for me is how to integrate this change with rooms can be cleared and uncleared multiple times by stabbing bits of tarstuff. It's for cases like that where the repeated clear sounds were annoying for people. I'd like more feedback on whether we also want to play the clear sound repeatedly in this situation as well as the one we've been originally discussing here.

Maybe, the precise logic would be: whenever hitting undo changes a clear room to unclear, then the room clear sound can be played again on a future clearing. Sound okay to everyone?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-03-2014 03:12 PM]
07-03-2014 at 03:09 PM
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Trickster
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (+1)  
quote:
mrimer wrote:
I'm fine with changing our handling so the clear sound replays whenever you undo back to having the room uncleared, and then clear it again. I think the part that's vague for me is how to integrate this change with rooms can be cleared and uncleared multiple times by stabbing bits of tarstuff. It's for cases like that where the repeated clear sounds were annoying for people. I'd like more feedback on whether we also want to play the clear sound repeatedly in this situation as well as the one we've been originally discussing here.

Maybe, the precise logic would be: whenever hitting undo changes a clear room to unclear, then the room clear sound can be played again on a future clearing. Sound okay to everyone?

That sounds fine to me, though I think you might want the logic to mark the first time the room is clear. Only undo the room-clear sound when you undo past that point. In other words, if you stab tar, kill babies, and undo, you wouldn't expect the sound then (you'd only expect it the first time the room were cleared).

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07-03-2014 at 04:25 PM
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Tuttle
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
Good pickup. Thought of a different way, the test is:

If:
1) this move clears the room, and
2) a hypothetical demo recorded from the start of the room to this point doesn't include a room-clearing move,
Then play the sound.
07-03-2014 at 04:43 PM
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Trickster
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
quote:
Tuttle wrote:
Good pickup. Thought of a different way, the test is:

If:
1) this move clears the room, and
2) a hypothetical demo recorded from the start of the room to this point doesn't include a room-clearing move,
Then play the sound.

I think the thing to do would be for the game to remember on which move the room was first cleared. I wouldn't expect this to be a persistent effect, so it wouldn't need to change savefiles any nor would it invalidate them.

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07-03-2014 at 04:48 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Room clear sound absence confusing with UU. (0)  
This sounds good. I'll try this.

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07-03-2014 at 06:00 PM
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