eb0ny
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 484
Registered: 09-12-2007
IP: Logged

hyperme wrote:
I blame you NOT PMing THE PLAYERS AT THE START!! People may of thought "oh the second round hasn't started yet" and think the red folderness is due to play testing comments. The host does has to nudge the players a bit.

The reason I PM'd levels to all the players is because of my contest philosophy (for the lack of a better word at the moment). The less burden on the participant, the more likely he/she will participate for longer. This is why I made personalized dungeons in the first game - the amount of time one has to spend to begin creating rooms is minimal, same thing regarding assignments of only two rooms per person.

In the situation present here, I would've taken the initiative to PM everyone with suggested changes (following Chaco's thoughts) or found some other compromise (sub-dungeon with a puzzle, which gives enough stats to proceed, maybe?), rather than telling everyone to "fix it". Just my 0.02Lt here, no offence to Nuntar or anyone else intended.

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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

eb0ny wrote:
This is why I made personalized dungeons in the first game - the amount of time one has to spend to begin creating rooms is minimal, same thing regarding assignments of only two rooms per person.

In my defence, I don't think the lack of personalised dungeons makes a huge difference -- it just means players have to look up and remember which rooms they're editing. The template dungeon I provided still did the same job of making everyone's rooms start out with the connections to adjacent rooms clarified.

I think Chaco's idea is a good one. So, just to make things crystal clear for anyone returning to this topic after an absence, we are going to try making a new first level, rejecting the rooms already designed, rather than attempting the very difficult task of fixing the rooms. And I make a general apology for getting too shirty about your failure to fix the rooms; I underestimated the difficulty of the task. As did we all, I think.

We'll keep the same template -- downloading it again from the original post should work, can't see why not -- and I'll reassign rooms. (I don't think I stated this explicity last time round, but for this round I am simply rolling dice to determine the room assignments. If the game continues to further levels, I may or may not continue to do this, or I may use a method that is only partially chance-driven. The method I use will be up to me and won't be discussed further.)

Your new room assignments are:

Chaco: 6N4E, 2N
hyperme: 2N2W, 4N4W
mxvladi: 2N2E, 4N2W
The Stew Boy: 4N, 6N2W
Dex Stewart: 6N4W, 4N2E
Someone Else: 4N4E, 6N2E

Further pointers:

* Perhaps some of you took what I said about avoiding too many ATK gems too much to heart. It's still valid advice, but this time, try to avoid having too few as well
* Especially for those designing the central rooms (4N2W, 4N2E), try to make it possible to pass through your room without too much trouble. There doesn't necessarily have to be a clear run from one side to the other the moment the player enters, but something like the previous 4N2W, which had to be entered from all four sides before the player could access the central part, is best avoided.
* On this level, all connections between the rooms are double -- two exits on the west side of one room lead to two entrances on the east side of another. It would make the level more interesting if more of you tried to use this in your room design. Other levels, if we reach them, will have less regular connection patterns; I wanted to try this pattern as an experiment.

I'll PM the six participants to draw their attention to this post. As it's gone on so long without getting far, if any of you want to drop out, that's absolutely fine, but I'd really like to be told of that decision within the next couple of days if possible, and then I can offer your rooms to someone else.

No deadline as yet. Once I get confirmation of who's still in the game, then I'll set a deadline.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-17-2009 05:57 PM]

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1304
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

Okay, I'm still in. I'll probably have mine ready in about 18 hours.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

I'm still in the game. In a day or two I should be able to submit a new entry.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

If someone drops out of this one, I would be willing to give it a shot again. Would it bother you if I played for a small number of rounds and then dropped out again (i.e. not by being late, by letting you know beforehand)?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Dex Stewart wrote:
If someone drops out of this one, I would be willing to give it a shot again. Would it bother you if I played for a small number of rounds and then dropped out again (i.e. not by being late, by letting you know beforehand)?

Not at all, anyone is welcome to participate for as many or as few rounds as they choose.

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50th Skywatcher

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1067
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

Still in.

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Still in.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

No word yet from 12th Archivist. I've sent him a further PM asking him to confirm whether he is still in. If I've not heard back from him by the 18th, I will give his place to Dex Stewart and the round can proceed.

Regardless of the outcome of that, the deadline for room submissions will be 23 May, 12 noon GMT. Two participants have already submitted their rooms. I hope the rest of you will be on time!

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50th Skywatcher

12th Archivist
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 789
Registered: 12-07-2008
IP: Logged

No, I probably can't play in this forum game anymore. For now, I have a lot of work to be done*.

*Real life work.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

OK, thanks for letting us know. Dex Stewart has agreed to take over your rooms.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Three participants have now submitted their rooms. I'd like to remind the rest of you that there are three days remaining.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Oh damn, its the 22nd here and I still haven't done anything. I keep forgetting about it. I'll try and send my rooms tonight.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

File: Nameless Fortress.drh (11 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

Okay, time's up!

Here's what you've all come up with, and I have to say, it's damned fine. Not difficult in the same way that Level 1 of the previous RPG Hold Anonymous was difficult, but difficult to optimise. In recognition of that, I've made the boss's stats high enough that optimisation -- or invisibility potion -- is needed. But if you use the invisibility potion it won't be available for use on a later level; thus optimisation is rewarded.

One snag: the player ends up with an inordinate amount of keys. I finished with ten yellow and two green.

It's now up to everyone to decide whether they would like to make changes to their rooms after seeing the current state of the level. Don't worry about making the boss impossible, because I will adjust his stats if necessary. You may wish to make it harder or impossible to finish with so many spare keys. Or you may leave this as it is and adjust your decisions on Level 2 in light of the fact. Your (collective) choice.

Deadline for this round is 30 May, 12 GMT.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-22-2009 08:28 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I forgot to add. During this round I'd like you all to state whether you're still in for the construction of Level 2, and anyone who hasn't participated may also sign up for the next round -- there is no reason we have to have a team of six.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

I'd like to declare my intention to build part of the next level. (I'm in for round 2.)

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-22-2009 07:47 PM]

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

I'm also planning to take part in ronud 2 as well, also I don't mind leaving the keys as they are.

Jeff_Ray...
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 962
Registered: 05-16-2005
IP: Logged

I'll join too. Time for me to start contributing!
Strange, though, that I only started participating at round 2 in both versions... coincidence? Or not? It's up to you to decide.
I think it's got something to do with a tar mother.

____________________________
I make Let's Plays too!
Click here to find out my LPs' progress, and find out what I plan to tackle next!

Currently playing:


My Holds:
-Completed:

-Work in Progress:

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Apologies -- I made a slight mistake with the scripts in one of mxvladi's rooms, meaning that two of the Zombies would not regenerate correctly. I've uploaded a fixed version now. I've also reduced the boss's HP to 95, so that getting 41 ATK (the maximum attainable) now makes a difference. The boss is beatable without getting all the available ATK, since there are two large potions behind yellow doors I didn't take, and I took a few potions too early that I could have left in view of the hot tiles. Also, with the boss's HP at 95, the difference in damage if you have slightly less ATK is reduced.

I also rescripted the boss so the score checkpoint will not be triggered if you use the invisibility potion to bypass him and then come back and kill him later.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-22-2009 08:29 PM]

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

I've made a run through of the level.

===

Expected Damage for Guardian: 945

Guardian defeated!

HP: 887
ATK: 40
DEF: 45
Keys: 10/1/0

GR: 302
REP: 542

Weapon: Foil
Shield: Wooden Shield
Accessory: Invisibility Potion

===

Yes, the level is definitely easier than our first run. And overall, I don't think that's a bad thing - there are still a lot of interesting subgoals to pursue, such as getting the goodies behind the spiders in 6N2E with appropriate loss, getting enough DEF so zombies no longer hurt the player, and I think exploration is now at an appropriate level (some areas require thinking to get to, particularly around the NE corner, but the level is open enough).

Some comments:

-My run was decently optimized but I definitely could have squeezed more out of the run. Among other things, I had many intriguing trades left over, which may need to be taken into consideration in later levels:

*Both 1 yellow key -> 200 HP trades in 6N4W

*A 10-greckle -> 50 HP trade in 2N, a 10-greckle -> 30 HP trade and a 10-greckle -> 15 HP trade in 6N4E

*A green key -> 2 yellow keys trade in 4N2E

-The only way I could figure out how to open the blue door in 6N was to use the skeleton key I picked up in 6N2E. We should probably change that key into a blue key.

-It's tricky, but possible in 4N4E to use the mirror to snuff out both fuses and never trigger the 25% bombs.

-The +50 HP health potion in 6N2W is reachable from the start of the level without fighting any monsters or otherwise expending resources, which I think is good for the observant player.

-I think the boss is of appropriate difficulty, and Nuntar's reasoning for lowering the Guardian's HP to 95 is fine with me.

===

Overall, I think we've done a much better job with this level, and I'm pleased with the result. I don't think we should build a Gauntlet for level 2; I think we should just take into account the resources the player has available at the start and not be afraid to block resources with yellow doors.

Alternatively, we could reduce the effect of the yellow key horde the player may have by putting five yellow doors in 6N to be opened - so the player will know that there's plenty of yellow keys around and will have to spend some, only having five at the start of the next level.

===

I don't think many changes will be needed to be made for this level, aside from the skeleton key -> blue key bit I pointed out, and possibly a requirement of five yellow keys to reach the level 1 boss. I'm fine with the way my two rooms turned out in context.

===

So, yeah. Good job everyone

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-22-2009 08:48 PM]

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

I'm in. I'll try and not submit it at the last minute again.

Edit: On completion, my stats were 458/38/45, keys 9/2/0, score 466. I'll try and optimize it now.
Edit: On completion a 2nd time, my stats were 691/40/43, keys 11/2/0 (damage from guardian: 963). This is without swapping a green key for a attack gem. If I swap it, my stats are 798/41/43, keys 11/1/0, score 483, GR 272 (damage from guardian: 856).
I could increase my damage a little more if I could only work out that annoying bomb/mirror puzzle in 4N4E...

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[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 05-23-2009 01:50 AM]

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1067
Registered: 06-23-2006
IP: Logged

I be in for level 2.

____________________________
[Insert witty comment here]
Qzvlkx?

Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1304
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

I'm in, and I'll support the change of that key that Chaco suggested. I'm glad that my puzzle didn't get beaten really easily.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Your room was excellent!

Well, all six participants have responded now, so -- are you in fact making changes, or shall we move on to the next level immediately? (When I say six I'm not counting Jeff_Ray, but of course I've noted his post and he's in the next level.)

Please note I'm not trying to pressure anyone into agreeing to move on -- in fact I think the level could certainly be improved in places -- but if it turns out that no-one wants to make changes it would be better to find that out now.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 05-24-2009 08:56 PM]

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

As said, I'm fine with how it is now.
The one thing which kinda... burst my bubble is the fact that I was hoping that separate entrances to the same room (on the same side) would be more separated from each other. I assumed this when designing 6N4E. However, I am aware that it is my fault for making that assumption and that it would be very difficult to change now anyway. So I'm appeased.

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

One minor annoyance for me was the long corridors between rooms. They don't add anything to the gameplay, and they just make it take longer to get from one corner of the map to the other.

Chaco
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3626
Registered: 10-06-2005
IP: Logged

Dex Stewart wrote:
The one thing which kinda... burst my bubble is the fact that I was hoping that separate entrances to the same room (on the same side) would be more separated from each other. I assumed this when designing 6N4E. However, I am aware that it is my fault for making that assumption and that it would be very difficult to change now anyway. So I'm appeased.

Yeah, that seemed like something you had in mind when you made 6N4W. But I think the room stands well enough on its own, particularly getting to the resources or the brain efficiently.

The Stew Boy wrote:
One minor annoyance for me was the long corridors between rooms. They don't add anything to the gameplay, and they just make it take longer to get from one corner of the map to the other.

Now that we have all the rooms built, it's entirely possible for us to remove said corridors and scrunch all the rooms together.

===

Is the "zombie regenerator" character in The Silent City: Twice North Twice East, (1,2) still visible in the latest version? It's visible on my end and it should be invisible in the final version.

2N2W has bridges in the SW corner that fall on the first turn. If that's intentional, I vote we change those into pits, since that's what they turn into anyway and it looks smoother. The effect should be the same in the endgame (even if the player gets a grappling hook later).

===

It sounds like all we need are some minor changes to the first level to smooth it out, and then we can begin with a new template for level 2.

____________________________
Quick links to my stuff (in case you forgot where it was):

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[Last edited by Chaco at 05-25-2009 01:44 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Chaco wrote:
Is the "zombie regenerator" character in The Silent City: Twice North Twice East, (1,2) still visible in the latest version? It's visible on my end and it should be invisible in the final version.

This, the bridges and the skeleton key will all be fixed when I upload the template for Level 2. I'll just leave it a little longer to see if anyone has any further changes they want to make.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

After completion a third time, my stats are 865/42/44, keys 13/1/0, GR 291, REP 581, invisibility potion, score 513. Damage from guardian: 742.
This is without swapping two yellow keys for 400 hp in 6N4W, but with swapping a green key for an attack gem.

Also, I changed my mind about my last post... those corridors are a major annoyance. It's quite frustrating to enter a room, only to find out that you should be entering it from another entrance that you have to travel through the perimeter of the level to get to, and even more frustrating when you've got to go through half a dozen useless corridors along the way.

Edit:

Nuntar wrote:
so that getting 41 ATK (the maximum attainable)

I was able to get 42... Unless the level's been changed since your post?

Edit: After completion a 4th time, I was able to get stats 934/41/44, keys 13/2/0, score 530, GR 270, REP 560, with invis potion - without swapping green key for atk gem. With the swap: 1040/42/44, 13/1/0, 270/560, score 518. Neither involved swapping 2 yellow keys for 400 hp.
So, I guess it's not really worth swapping the green key for the gem, unless 106 HP is going to be really important next level.

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[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 05-25-2009 08:54 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

The Stew Boy wrote:
I was able to get 42... Unless the level's been changed since your post?

The level hasn't changed, but it's possible that I missed an ATK gem hidden under a monster or only available through scripting?

I count:
2 ATK gems in 6N4W
4 in 6N2W (6)
2 in 6N2E (8)
5 in 4N4W (13)
1 in 4N2W (14)
3 in 4N (17)
3 in 4N2E (20)
4 in 4N4E (24)
2 in 2N2W (26)
1 in 2N (27)
4 in 2N2E (31)
10 ATK given in Entrance (41)

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50th Skywatcher