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Caravel Forum : Caravel Boards : General : Idle musings about future DROD development (A multiple question poll)
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How many new features should DROD 4.0 have?
No new features. TCB has enough.
Only new scripting features, no new monsters/NPCs/items.
Add a few select new monsters/NPCs/items, but not as many as 2.0 or 3.0 added
As many new monsters and items as were added in 3.0!
Even more new features!
There shouldn't be a DROD 4.0, only a DROD RPG 2
What type of new features do you want to see?
AI opponents/Allies. Caravel is bound to get them right eventually.
A new boss monster, like the slayer.
A new boss ally, like Halph.
New regular monsters.
New regular potions/tokens
New terrain elements
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eytanz
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icon Idle musings about future DROD development (+3)  
First a disclaimer - I'm posting this thread because I'm curious, not because I'm on the dev team. It is not a disguised attempt to get feedback towards the next DROD game, and nothing posted here is in any way likely to affect the development process. I did not discuss this thread with Mike before posting, and I have no idea if he will read it.

So, anyway, the recent thread denouncing the new features in TCB, and the responses to me have made me wonder. Overall, it seems that the least popular features (builders, stalwarts, to a lesser extent guards) are those that feature complex AIs and designed to work in large quantities. Slayers and Halph are ok, probably because they are normally used no more than one per room. Guards are now quite popular, but they were negatively receieved when JtRH came out.

A second thought is that the feature set of TCB is already quite crowded.

So, I'm wondering - when DROD 4.0 comes out, would people want more features? Or do people think we have enough? How many new features? And should new features be added, should they be simple monsters, or more AI-driven NPCs?

So, here's a poll. Again, this reflects my personal curiosity, and nothing else.

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10-28-2008 at 05:36 PM
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Dex Stewart
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (0)  
Regarding the first question, I definitely want new features do be implemented, but I don't really have and estimate in mind for how many. I would just say as many as possible so long as they still fullfill their role and are different, and have all those other qualities that are generally praised on the Feature Requests board (those mentioned would be the main two).

Regarding the second question, I would like abolutely anything new, as long as it's thought out well and it makes good puzzles possible. But the two things which I would most like to see are a new boss monster, since the Slayer was made of win and awesome, and TCB is missing such a character, and new advanced allies (advanced enemies aren't that important). Main reason for this is that Stalwarts are kindof a joke.
10-28-2008 at 05:46 PM
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aztcg7
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I enjoy learning all of the new features that both JTRH and TCB added to the game. I find the interactions between different monsters to be very enjoyable, much more so than horde management. So on that level, I want more features, especially new regular monsters. As for how many, I would prefer that they be introduced slowly, perhaps 1 or 2 new elements from an SMS or similar. Of course I want everyone to have access to these, but by introducing only a few new ideas at a time, architects time can perhaps be focused on helping to show some of the more interesting interactions between the new element and existing monsters and terrain elements.

As for what type of elements I want included, I would enjoy different terrain elements.

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10-28-2008 at 06:12 PM
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vittro
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (0)  
Imo, more features = more fun.

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10-28-2008 at 07:39 PM
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Mechadragon
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Maybe hectic scripting abilities, such that a sufficiently inclined architect can include their very own element and develop it throughout their hold - then share it with others to use in theirs!

I can't imagine how much work it would require for it to be flexible enough, though.
10-28-2008 at 07:54 PM
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The Architest
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More monsters and elements!

And new boss monster!

I agree with Mechadragon,it would be awesome to have own elements in game!

And this 4.0 version gots best name ever : The Second Sky!
10-28-2008 at 08:08 PM
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Blondbeard
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My advise: Keep it simple. A monster that only can move diagonal. A potion that makes you move like a chess horse. Of course these sugestions aren't serious, but they are simple. Stalwarts, slayers and guards are complex. Mud is a bit complex, as are serpents and goblins. And wraithwings are certanly complex. As is builders and citizens.

I feel that everything where you can figure out the rules in an instant is a good addition. If you add more enemies as comlex as guards or goblins there will just be too many complex rules for the beginner to learn. I wouldn't mind, but already know most of the rules, and I want DROD to spread. Oh, and you might want to do as in Wonderquest where a brief rule description of an element/monster pops up when you right-klick it (actualy you just have to let the mouse cursor hover above the object).

[Last edited by Blondbeard at 10-28-2008 08:42 PM]
10-28-2008 at 08:39 PM
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CuriousShyRabbit
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (+2)  
Mechadragon wrote:
Maybe hectic scripting abilities, such that a sufficiently inclined architect can include their very own element and develop it throughout their hold - then share it with others to use in theirs!

I can't imagine how much work it would require for it to be flexible enough, though.
But we already have the ability to make new custom elements in TCB!

Check out:
1. Play Below Witherwood and Pathways of Witherwood by calamarain to see "warbas".
2. Play Below Witherwood and Symphony by calamarain to see "slicers", which are dressed-up versions of the rotating mimics Oneiromancer introduced in the classic Beethro Goes Fourth. Similar creations also appear in Stuwy's classic Channel One Suite.
3. Play Val Unrich by The spitemaster to see player role change stations. Alternate versions of change stations also appear in Choose Your Adventure by Jacob, and Cheese's Hodgepodge by cheese obsessive.
4. Play Fireballs by Chaco to see both heavy and light "fireballs".
5. Play Entropy and The Guardian's Treasure by Dischorran to see "guardians".
6. Play Kolby's Challenge by Someone Else to see "Kolby", a custom protagonist.
7. Play Salamander by Jutt to see "salamanders".
8. Play the Frankenstein's Wanderer contest entries to see "wanderers".
9. And I haven't played everything on the Architecture board, so I'm sure there's more!

And when you're done having your socks knocked off by all those terrific holds, please consider nominating your favorite for the "Best Custom Game Element" in the Fifth Annual People's Choice Awards. :)

On the topic of this thread, I think DROD already has enough features. We're still learning how to use all the cool stuff we already have!
10-28-2008 at 08:43 PM
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RoboBob3000
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (+2)  
I think that, due to the popularity of creating custom characters in 3.0, there should be some streamlined method of enabling this in 4.0. Even if it was something as simple as providing empty slots in the enemies tab of the editor that we can fill up with a script (so we don't have to constantly copy/paste characters, and so a small change to a character doessn't need to be manually implemented across the entire hold).

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[Last edited by RoboBob3000 at 10-28-2008 09:24 PM]
10-28-2008 at 09:23 PM
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Someone Else
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Actually, what I'd like to see is more neutral monsters, like briar (if you can count it as a monster). They would be things that are just as likely to kill you as they are another monster. Guards and adders don't count, because they are going towards you. Even if they unintentionally kill something, it's only because you manipulated them correctly.

Also, I like the idea of elements being added with SMS. Then, we have a hold that shows some of their uses, and there's no complaint that all the new elements are too confusing (or that too many being added). That being said, I think that there is no reason to stop adding elements unless people run out of good ideas.
10-28-2008 at 11:06 PM
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Jutt
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (+3)  
I'm more on the side of adding only a minimal number of items—just the ones that really are the missing counterpart to existing elements, or in any other way fill an important niche.

Take a look in the editor at the tabs with all game elements. Getting pretty crowded in there, not? With TCB we have huge diversity in game elements and together they create potential for the most complex puzzles one can think of. However since the days of AE with the introduction of more and more of these elements, people have slowly forgotten what was possible with the original minimal set of features.

That is not to say that I don't like the additions from JtRH and TCB. Most are great indeed, like the additional snakes and tarstuffs, the scripting engine… can't name them all. However, not so much with JtRH but certainly with TCB, there have been added some less successful elements as well (I'm thinking stalwarts, builders). They are more interesting gimmicks, instead of powerful elements that integrate well with the game.

Also, some elements have been added, that although I think are great, were not really necessary to make an excellent game—I would have loved DROD equally without them. Take for example the addition of the Fegundo in TCB. Although it's a pretty neat monster and I can see its potential, it doesn't really fill a niche in my opinion. Its mechanics are not really comparable with anything else in the game. It takes a far greater step away form the existing mechanics compared to a new tarstuff like gel, which works mostly the same as other tarstuffs, but has new cutting rules.
In other words: to fill niches you'll have to look at which properties of elements are comparable and in what combinations they are missing, not just add an element with entirely different rules and say it's the missing link 'because there wasn't anything like it yet'.

So then what things do I like to see in TSS?
A few things which I think would fit in well are diagonal squares to complement the orthosquares, serpent switch tokens similar to the tarstuff switchers…
The monster that I always missed was one that moves diagonal only, but since I scripted the salamander it's not on top of my wish list anymore (still official support would be neat). Regarding scripting, with the popularity of creating custom monsters it would be nice to be able to retrieve coordinates of the player and NPC's; make commands like appear at more flexible by letting them take variables as arguments.

I'm also going to second what Blondbeard said: keep it simple! All the good elements have fairly simple properties, and are because of similarities between them intuitive and easy to remember. Now if the Caravel team sticks to the niche filling philosophy any new elements should automatically follow this advise.
Nevertheless it's a useful thing to keep in mind. Better not to try and create overly complicated bosses this time; for example the slayers have lost quite a bit of their appeal now that people have found the many ways to kill them.

All in all, we don't need many more elements to make more complex, versatile and generally more enjoyable holds, the existing features are very well capable of that. Al we need to do is round up the set of elements neatly for the final installment.

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10-29-2008 at 12:21 AM
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NiroZ
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I think, if you want to go ahead with custom monsters, you really need to have an online database of them for architects to browse.

But personally, I hate custom monsters. In my experience, they have a propensity to be badly introduced, throwing you into the deep end way to early. They're either too complex or pointlessly easy and the design is very rough. :angry

Ideally, in DROD 4.0 I'd like to see a way to teamwork with the Stalwart. And not absolute commands, like turn sword left, but a scriptable call, like target the aumtlich because tokens would be way too tedious. I also think that we don't need major new elements, but things that fit in nicely with existing elements. Things like a briar fungus that creates oremites in the place of briar, as opposed to yet another tar.
10-29-2008 at 12:51 AM
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Sillyman
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What I want is a more powerful scripting language. But that's always what I've wanted, now isn't it... as for new elements... go for it.

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10-29-2008 at 03:25 AM
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New elements are good as long as they're simple enough and not too situational. No problems with quantity if there are enough good ideas. My opinions on some of the earlier advanced additions below:

Stalwarts were just a more annoying version of mimics. I don't remember seeing a single fun/good puzzle with stalwarts. You can do some silly hack'n'slash rooms but the design is somewhat incompatible with coordinating precise movements. Clones were a much better alternative character, since they do similar stuff while not acting stupid.

Guards I didn't like mainly because of forced pathfinding which does nothing but reduces puzzle potential (you could always have a brain in the room...) - you can indeed now make a monster that moves brained without brains in the room, but the first option has loads more potential. As a result of this behaviour, most guard rooms I remember are boring combat-only stuff.

Halph was fine when it comes to AI. I think it could've been interesting if monsters could attack him without pathfinding towards him, so you'd need to pay more attention to where you leave the boy (it feels kind of silly using Halph as a cover), but it's fine as it is really. This is how allies should be. Controllable. Don't try to do everything on your own like stalwarts.

Slayer would've been good without being killable just about everywhere, but the AI failed horribly so it's only very situationally useful... what wasted potential. They even added a new version of the Slayer, but didn't spot the opportunity to fix this without breaking backwards compatibility.

Personally I'd like to see something like a good flying monster (fegundi are kind of situational and not really even monsters, and we all know how chaotic wraithwings can get in groups). And maybe something that grows only orthogonally because that's fresh. And ideally polishing some of the inconsistent looking graphics like tokens and lights, just for improving room aesthetics.

(voted regular monsters + boss monster + terrain elements)
10-29-2008 at 08:39 AM
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robin
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For me there may be as many new elements in DROD 4.0 as were added in DROD 3.0

Because the must be a challenge, and we're kinda used to get every level something new.

Then a new boss monster like a Slayer is pretty welcome,
maybe something like "The PitThing"

new regular monsters, a new snake, new kind of tar, ...

new potions are also welcome, (a wall walking potion)

and new terrain ellements, have no ideas about this one, but I'm sure there are some clever minds thinking of some.



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10-29-2008 at 10:42 AM
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t_z
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (+1)  
The creativity of new elements in TCB absolutely amazed me. I would love to see that trend continue in the next version. The official hold did it right, in my opinion, by featuring one new element (or a few related elements) within a themed level. Things could have been very cluttered and confusing otherwise. Elements like Fegundo and mirrors, while drastically changing the gameplay mechanics, kept things refreshing.

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10-29-2008 at 07:22 PM
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Syntax
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t_z wrote:
The creativity of new elements in TCB absolutely amazed me. I would love to see that trend continue in the next version.
I utterly agree... a lot of fun I've had with DROD was discovering each new element, and the official holds were perfect for that.

Later on, once they become familiar and possibly overused, the game becomes rather more claustrophobic, so added entities with a well designed introduction would be much appreciated.
10-31-2008 at 04:55 AM
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Dischorran
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icon Re: Idle musings about future DROD development (+1)  
My stance is "the more the merrier". Throwing in a slew of new elements may overwhelm the official holds, but I see the official holds as essentially tutorials for the real game of making and playing user-made holds, and the more new stuff we have to play with, the more life the update gets afterward. Perhaps following through with the plan to add new stuff via SmS would improve this.

My monster preferences tend towards the easily predictable, so while I always like to see new ones, I'd lean towards new "regular" monsters instead of boss monsters as long as they keep up the tradition of bringing a few fundamentally new traits to the game. New environmental elements are even better; TCB fixed some major shortfalls, but I don't doubt that there's more to do.

I would like to see a much more robust scripting system put in, or perhaps moved back over from the RPG. Something that gives architects the ability to create a wider variety of custom monsters and elements would greatly extend the lifetime of the game, especially with the default script feature of the RPG making them much easier to use. Perhaps requiring, or at least making customary, the creation of a tutorial to accompany publicly posted custom monsters would mitigate their problem with confusing a few people.

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11-02-2008 at 07:39 PM
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